Socialism is NOT a bad thing

Originally posted by Divinorumus
THAT is not a redistribution of wealth, that is a service that is being provided which I would gladly help pay for, if they would also stop acting immoral by dropping bombs on innocent baby and women heads (my conscience won't allow be to be part of that too, I just can't bring myself to funding a bunch of baby killers to insure we have cheap fuel for our environmentally damaging automobiles).

Are you saying you dont pay taxes to the government? Because they're the ones funding the whole "war on terror", which you obviously see through.

And redistribution of wealth, sounds alot more like a Communist sentiment than a socialist one...

Can i just take a second to agree with many of the other posters about all, for lack of better words, governing methods. Pure Socialism or Capitalism can be equally as bad, (although i believe capitalism is so utterly entrenched in the human psyche that it is ever present). And only through public awareness and therefore power, will any "method" ever truely work in the favour of the common populace.

[edit on 30-3-2010 by OLDMATE]

Originally posted by OLDMATE
Are you saying you dont pay taxes to the government?

That's right. I'm (90%) retired. I have no income (or rather not enough) to require me to file or pay income tax on (I'm living on my savings and a modest amount I receive as a beneficiary from a trust fund). I do of course have to still pay sales tax when buying stuff, but that's about it. Oh, and I suppose I do pay property taxes through my rent, but of course I get that all back the following year because I'm apparently poor, ha, I have no earned income, thus qualifying me for a refund of that.

Originally posted by OLDMATE
reply to post by beaverg

 

HAHAHA thats rich that really is...

Are you trying to tell me in a capitalist society everyone has an even playing field? Because thats what im getting.

Also im not saying that someone from a low income background cannot be successful in America, but!, could this not be said of ANY system? What im saying is that a capitalist society is the one of the hardest in which to become successful. Unless of course you come from a rich family.........

[edit on 28-3-2010 by OLDMATE]

His dad herded goats.
[but]
In Africa.
[but]
WITH A STICK!
[....]

reply to post by Divinorumus


With your comment here, you would probably like my thread in regards to the idea you talked about.

Legal Slavery, right here in the United States of Hypocricy!

Originally posted by endisnighe
With your comment here, you would probably like my thread in regards to the idea you talked about.

Thanks, I took a look, and added something.

Originally posted by beaverg
His dad herded goats.
[but]
In Africa.
[but]
WITH A STICK!
[....]

Yeh and he just happens to become the president of America....

I can't believe that. Im sorry not even for a second.

Lets look at this logically.

If his dad was any old goat herder in Africa, how did Obama learn english well enough to be a great orator?

How did he enter into a political party when his father would have earnt not even close to a senators paycheck for one month in many years work?

No im sorry that story does NOT fit the circumstances...

reply to post by OLDMATE


He said "sticks and stones"
Einstein said WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones.

reply to post by rusethorcain


The message remains the same...

But thanks for telling me man.

It's rather funny to me really, that Americans should be so against socialism when in 1976, it saved your entire country.

The Penn-Central railroad was a horribly mismanaged tangle of insanity and idiocy. The largest railroad in the United States was the kind of massive failure that shamed everyone involved in the company's management.

To add the worst insult to the abject stupidity of the managers, nobody admitted it was headed off a cliff until it was about to hit the ground at the bottom. The railroad came mere days from having to shut down. There were no lines of credit left to tap, and payroll could not be paid, let alone the operating expenses of a massive transportation system. The railroad has operated under bankruptcy protection since 1970 and still could not continue.

Under a strict-libertarian ideology the railroad should have been allowed to fail. The problem is that such an action would have left everything east of St. Louis and north of Washington D.C. without freight transportation at all. Industry would have to completely shut down along with power generation. Food shortages would have been acute and other forms of transportation would have stalled out as fuel stopped moving.

The Northeast was the industrial heart of America, and the most populated region. When the heart stops, the whole creature dies.

Instead of allowing Penn-Central to fail, the Nixon administration nationalized the entire system, as well as several other smaller failing railroads, and formed them into a new system called Conrail. The government pumped billions of dollars into Conrail, rebuilding and restructuring the entire Northeastern railroad system.

In 1983, the railroad was back in profitable territory, and by 1986, they had a taxable income of $314 million dollars. President Regan then re-privatized Conrail, at the time the largest initial public offering in US history, and the government sold the whole system to the new shareholders for $1.9 billion in 1987.

Today, after a split takeover in 1999, the rebuilt Conrail system forms the spine of two thriving private railroad corporations, and America is stronger for it.

Originally posted by ProjectJimmy
The government pumped billions of dollars into Conrail, rebuilding and restructuring the entire Northeastern railroad system.

That's an infrastructure investment, something which we all "collectively" benefit from. Farm subsidies are similar, we all benefit from that, unless you don't eat food.

This health care reform however, all that is (for the most part) will be ME forcing YOU to pay for some of my cost of living expenses.

Hey, although I'm against involuntary servitude, the forcing of one human to work for the PERSONAL benefit of another human, I'm gonna play this from the other side, as if suddenly I LOVE commie-ism. I'm going to pretend I'm suddenly a socialist.

Yup, I love socialism now. As soon as I find out how this health care reform works, I'm going to FORCE YOU to subsidize my lifestyle choices. First, you will have to pay most of my health insurance premium costs, as I will NOT be going to work anytime soon, or if ever again (that way I can get more out of this socialist idea for ME ME ME). Next, I will no longer have to take good care of myself, lol, I will now have free free FREE health care .. at YOUR expense, maybe at the expense of your dear sweet children ... your grandchildren too if I can get them doctors to keep me alive long enough .. again, at YOUR expense, ha.

I'm going to stop exercising, I won't need to any more, medical science can clean out my clogged up plumming as I keep getting fat and fatter and FATTER while my heart keeps getting weaker and weaker and weaker. Yup, I'm going to start eating like a big fat hog too. I'm going to eat all that tasty stuff that's not good for me, because YOU can afford it, ha. Hey, don't put your checkbook away just yet. Guess what? Yup, I'm going to start taking up chain smoking too ... cough cough ... LOL. Oh, and I'm gonna get me some of that free viagra .. and start having LOTS of children .. illegitimate children. Oh their mother won't need to worry about trying to get money from me to support them puppies because guess who will have to pay for that too? YUP, YOU! Oops, did I just get an STD? Well heck, thanks to obama, I won't have to worry about the financial consequences of THAT either.

Oh thank gawd for obama, he is surly our savior, he's taken away all the consequences of living irresponsibly and recklessly. It's as if we'll be forgiven for all our sins, what without any consequences to worry about. Yippee, I love commie-ism. Yup, it sure is NOT a bad thing .. I can see that now, after ya'll set me straight on how this is suppose to work. Thank you, thank you all for wanting to pay for my keep thus eliminating all those negative consequences for living like a true american should. I could kiss you all!



So what's next? Free food? Free health care won't be of much help without free food too. BTW, I would like lobster for lunch. Oh, and I heard a glass of wine a day is good for my health. How much can you afford to by me? Pick up a few cases, that way I won't have to bug you every day for more more MORE!

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of someone elses money.

The problem with socialism is that you'll always find a reason to spend someone elses money.

Heres medical excellence in a socialized system.

1. U.K.’s heart-attack fatality rate is almost 20% higher than America’s

2. Angioplasties in Britain are only 21.3% as common as they are here

3. NICE ruled against the use of two drugs, Lapatinib and Sutent, that prolong the life of those with certain forms of breast and stomach cancer

4. Breast cancer in America has a 25% mortality rate; in Britain it’s almost double at 46%

5. Prostate cancer kills 19% of American and 57% of Brits

6. in 2006, a U.K-based board decreed that elderly patients with macular degeneration had to wait until they went blind in one eye before they could get a costly new drug to save the other eye. It took three years to get that outrageous decree reversed.

7. NICE will cut annual steroid injections for severe back pain from 60,000 to 3,000. Result? “It will mean more people on opiates, which are addictive and kill 2,000 a year. It will mean more people having spinal surgery, which is incredibly risky and has a 50% failure rate.”

8. Nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment

9. U.S. = 34 CT scanners per million; Britain = 8

10. U.S. = 27 MRI machines per million; Britain = 6

11. Brits wait twice as long to see a specialist than Americans

12. In U.S., recommended age for colon-cancer screening for men begins at 50. NHS starts at age 75.

13. Avastin, a drug for advanced colon cancer, is prescribed more often in the U.S. than in the U.K., by some estimates as much as 10 times more.

14. In U.K., 20% of potentially curable lung-cancer patients became incurable on the waiting list.

Socialism, Capitalism, infact any form of civilistic control or faith systems systems ending in ISM have all been proven to be either flawed, corrupt or unsustainanable. Thats why I say follow Titorality!!!

Well its worth a shot

reply to post by ShadeWolf

I do not have a problem with socialism.What i do have a problem with is any system that takes away my freedom. Forcing me to pay into a healthcare system that i rather not use is taking away my freedom of choice. Not everyone agrees with the government on what is healthy. For examlpe, i will not inject myself with any vaccination ever again so long as i live. Now if the government controls healthcare they can easily say everyone must get vaccinated and those that dont either A)will no longer recive healthcare, or B) will be fined and keep getting fined untill they do or C)be arrested. This is definately not the healthcare i would want.

reply to post by ShadeWolf


First of all Shadewolf why would you think that ordinary citizens have the right to ownership of industries, capitol, land etc.? Small business is the backbone of our economy. I happen to own a medium size business. It has been a long term struggle to get to this point.

Most people have no idea the governmental hurdles that business owners must navigate to reach some level of success. I happen to be one of the lucky ones. It has been through very hard work, long hours, some luck and a sellable product.

I have spent 20 years building my company. Most of my employees have no idea what I went through to get here. They just see the nice stuff I have and think it has always been this way. Wrong, it has only been the last coupple of years that it has really taken off. The sacrifice was immeasurable.

Forgive me for sounding trite but why do you feel you or anyone else should benefit from my hard work. It is the opportunity to succeed that makes people want to live in this country. Hard working people are not wasting time looking for a government handout. Hard working people are trying to figure out how to improve their lot in life. And not all make it. The risk of failure is huge. I have almost gone under twice. Not fun nor stress free.

This whole fairness crap just does not wash with me. Lazy people want socialism because they do not want to work for what they get. Also, There is a mindset among some Americans that rich people do not deserve what they have worked hard for. I think people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs deserve every penny of what they have. I am not jealous of what they have accomplished for themselves.

Socialism does not offer the reward for hard work that capitalism does. Our system is what has made this the greatest nation on the planet. It is not perfect and there are some criminals running big business. They should and do get punished. For me, I would never intentionally decieve my customers or my employees for a few gold coins. I believe in karma, what goes around comes around.

Think about it for one second. Would you dedicate 20 years of your life trying to obtain the American dream only to have the government want to redistribute it. Socialism drags everybody down to where only the ruling class live in luxury.

Most people I know who have serious money worked very hard to get it. The prospect of making it to the top is what motivates these people. Some of them failed multiple times before getting it right. They risked everything in their ascent to the top. I risked everything to try it on my own. It is a scary proposition that I doubt I would do over had I a crystal ball.

Originally posted by scotticus prime
Forgive me for sounding trite but why do you feel you or anyone else should benefit from my hard work.

Do you not benefit from others hard work by driving on state funded roads i.e. benefitting from others hard work?

Originally posted by scotticus prime
"It is the opportunity to succeed that makes people want to live in this country.", "Our system is what has made this the greatest nation on the planet.".

Why do Americans constantly beleive their country to be so good? It has the highest crime rate of any developed nation, it's economy is up sh*t creek because its based on credit and the corruption is appalling

Originally posted by scotticus prime
It is not perfect and there are some criminals running big business. They should and do get punished. For me, I would never intentionally decieve my customers or my employees for a few gold coins. I believe in karma, what goes around comes around.

Wrong. Oh so wrong. The main contributers to the GLOBAL financial crisis walked away with massive pay-outs and no punishment whatsoever. While im happy to hear you beleive in karma, somehow i doubt the guys from Lehman Brothers etc follow your example.

Originally posted by scotticus prime
Socialism drags everybody down to where only the ruling class live in luxury.

Once again wrong. I live in Australia, Democratic socialist society, and we have everbody from ridiculously rich people all the way to homeless people, but in Australia, even the homeless get healthcare.

Ill say this one more time Socialism is NOT Communism.........

I don't think Canada is Socialist. If it was, it wouldn't have privatized (i.e. sold off cheap to the rich) its oil resources. Just 'cos it's more left-wing than the USA is saying very little.

I will add that ATS is full of idiots from America who have been brainwashed into thinking Socialism = Stalinism. They have been trained to love what destroys them and hate what is good for them. I do not mean that all Americans are idiots.

[edit on 9-5-2010 by rizla]

Originally posted by ShadeWolf
reply to post by Divinorumus

 

How dare you say that being poor is a choice? That may the single most idiotic statement I've seen in the time I've spent here.

I second that, it is a choice for most people.
Daily, I see completely healthy people sitting in their government houses, two cars in the driveway, watching widescreen tv.
You want to see poor? Visit Brasil. The US's poor are well off compared to the of the world's truly poor.

They would rather live off the goobermnet than actually get a job.

reply to post by wookiee


The above people are not poor. Not even a little bit. Like you say go to brasil or any other developing nation to see true poverty. While this is true how can you say poverty is a choice? poverty is almost ALWAYS inherited.

reply to post by scotticus prime


I think that the public is entitled to ownership of essential industries. Luxury things should remain privatized, but things like food, housing and other requirements of life should be state-controlled.

Everybody should benefit from the work of everybody else because that is true equality.

Fairness? You think that Bill Gates living in a massive mansion while a good percentage of the rest of the populace is living in a cardboard box on the side of the road?

I despise the implication that America is the "greatest nation on earth". You preach equality and then claim your national superiority? Bloody ridiculous.

And now we find the root of your issue. McCarthyist conditioning. Despite what you may thing, no nation has ever been truly Socialist or Communist. In proper Marxist Communism, there is no ruling class. The government ceases to exist once all notions of personal ownership are dissolved. In a proper Socialist system, EVERYONE is equal, instead of the "all men are equal, but some are more equal than others" philosophy that Leninist/Stalinist nations follow.