How Dare You Mr. President and Congress...

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
reply to post by Alxandro

 

How apropos.

reply to post by kinda kurious

 

I am barely making my car insurance, I can barely purchase food, and barely making payments for storage so what few belongings I own are not tossed into the street.

I do not own house, I am living out of my car, evicted due to lack of funds.

No wife, no children, and I do not get sick but once every five years.

Oh yes, and the Shuttle program being shut down this year will sink my county.

Literally.

You were saying?

Sorry to hear about the hard times you are going through.

Fortunately you seem confused about "being forced" to buy health care...

The bill contains an exemption for those undergoing financial hardship..

Exemptions for economic hardship, religious objections, American Indians, those without coverage for less than three months, undocumented immigrants, incarcerated individuals

online.wsj.com...

And anyone making less than 88k will recieve subsidies.

Also...

The penalty will be phased in, starting at $95 or 1 percent of income in 2014, whichever is higher, and rising to $695 or 2.5 percent of income in 2016. But families would not pay more than $2,085.

American Indians don’t have to buy insurance. Those with religious objections or a financial hardship can also avoid the requirement. And if you would pay more than 8 percent of your income for the cheapest available plan, you will not be penalized for failing to buy coverage.

Those who are exempt, or under 30, can buy a policy that only pays for catastrophic medical costs. It must allow for three primary care visits a year as well.

www.nytimes.com...

AND even if you are under "financial hardship" and aren't required to buy a plan, but still want one...the government will help you buy one with subsidies that start at subsidizing 94% of premiums for the lowest possible bracket.

See the subsidy chart here. It is based on the Federal Poverty Level.
www.cbo.gov...


AND as far as being "forced" to pay for health insurance via taxes...are we not "forced" to pay for Fire Services, Police Protection, Roads, etc. through our tax dollars? This seems like a much greater bang for our buck than those items we are already "forced" to pay for...we will all need medical assistance some day....and it aint cheap!

Just sayin....in light of the above ...if we look at the facts and your personal situation...this bill won't cost you anything for a while and even then you might not be required to purchase a plan if you are under "financial hardship" and if you do...potentially 94% will be covered for you.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by maybereal11]

the "health care plan" was supported by two different groups of citizens: Group A includes the Democratic leadership and those that support them. They are in favor of having government make decisions for people, either because they are in love with power or they think the population is too ignorant to take care of themselves; Group B just wanted "free" health care. Some genuinely can't afford it and some simply don't want it.
Group B is in for a real shock. Not only is is NOT free; they will be fined for not purchasing same. The GOP could run on this alone.

For years I've had a dream. I take my grandchildren to a museum and we stop in front of a static display. "Who are they, Grandpa?" "Well kids, they were called Democrats. They ran the country when I was your age, but they didn't understand economics. They thought the people who worked wouldn't mind giving a lot of stuff to people who didn't contribute. Eventually the wealth producers got tired of giving all their money away, and like the Dinosaurs we just saw, the Democrats disappeared."

Originally posted by Office 4256
the "health care plan" was supported by two different groups of citizens: Group A includes the Democratic leadership and those that support them. They are in favor of having government make decisions for people, either because they are in love with power or they think the population is too ignorant to take care of themselves; Group B just wanted "free" health care. Some genuinely can't afford it and some simply don't want it.
Group B is in for a real shock. Not only is is NOT free; they will be fined for not purchasing same. The GOP could run on this alone.

For years I've had a dream. I take my grandchildren to a museum and we stop in front of a static display. "Who are they, Grandpa?" "Well kids, they were called Democrats. They ran the country when I was your age, but they didn't understand economics. They thought the people who worked wouldn't mind giving a lot of stuff to people who didn't contribute. Eventually the wealth producers got tired of giving all their money away, and like the Dinosaurs we just saw, the Democrats disappeared."

Further down the line..

" Who Are They, Grandpa?" " Well kids, those are called Republicans. They ran the country when I was young and thought the way forward was to wage war accross the globe, steal other people's resources and enslave the nation to bankers and the rich. The problem is they didn't understand that the will of the people provided for their power, and like the democrats and dinosaurs, people threw them out".

~Keeper

reply to post by kinda kurious

If you drive a car, you need insurance.

This is a silly and quite frankly a very lame argument. (How surprising!).

Driving a car is a privelage not a right. If you "choose" not to own a car then you are not "required" to have auto insurance.

If you "choose" not to own a home you are not "required" to have homeowners insurance.

BUT............If you are a citizen of the United States you are now "required" to have health insurance. You are not offered the opportunity to "choose"

Get it?

Becker

Alright, I am going to pull this comment because it was IGNORANT on my part.

Sorry 10th power. Sometimes I stick my well endowed feet in my well endowed mouth.

Sorry SKL for getting out of hand on thread.

[edit on 3/23/2010 by endisnighe]

reply to post by maybereal11

Thanks so much for finding and posting the link www.cbo.gov... for the subsidy chart, maybereal11. People need to know what these numbers mean to them in real terms - I think a lot of people will be pleasantly surprised if they actually read this.

I am feeling a lot more encouraged about life and I hope I never have to see another friend die for lack of health care in this country again. I've seen it happen to two friends and that is partly why I have worked so hard and became politically involved for the last ten years...um not so much on scream-fest right leaning boards like ATS but in legitimate political and partisan activities and fund raising for Obama and local politics as well.

People need to work to make things happen so those who are unhappy now need to do something legal and helpful in shaping politics and laws of the county rather than just threatening violence and armed revolution like I have been hearing around here. My congresswoman's office was shattered last night because she voted for the bill. The person who did it is a coward, not a "patriot".



[edit on 23-3-2010 by ChrisCrikey]

Originally posted by Becker44

This is a silly and quite frankly a very lame argument. (How surprising!).

Driving a car is a privelage not a right. If you "choose" not to own a car then you are not "required" to have auto insurance.

If you "choose" not to own a home you are not "required" to have homeowners insurance.

BUT............If you are a citizen of the United States you are now "required" to have health insurance. You are not offered the opportunity to "choose"

Get it?

Becker

Except for the fact that the uninsured are guaranteed emergency medical care. Which is taken out of the pockets of other Americans. So, basically those without insurance are freeloading off others. The uninsured are basically getting emergency care welfare.

What the government is doing is trying to end the emergency care welfare system to those that can afford to buy their own insurance. Which of course you can opt out and pay a tax instead.

Originally posted by Becker44
reply to post by kinda kurious

 

If you drive a car, you need insurance.

This is a silly and quite frankly a very lame argument. (How surprising!).

Driving a car is a privelage not a right. If you "choose" not to own a car then you are not "required" to have auto insurance.

If you "choose" not to own a home you are not "required" to have homeowners insurance.

BUT............If you are a citizen of the United States you are now "required" to have health insurance. You are not offered the opportunity to "choose"

Get it?

Becker

It is patently false and a misinformation or mistake of fact put out by the numerous DMV's across the state that "driving is a privilege and not a right". Who say's driving is not a right? Who gets to decide what is a right and not? Have you ever read the Ninth Amendment? Prior to the DMV was there a DHB, (Department of Horse and Buggy's)? Was it a right to drive a horse and buggy but now that the automobile has been invented neither driving horse and buggy's or automobiles are no longer a right?

Driving is a right and not a privilege and the voluntary nature by which most people acquiesce and surrender their bill of sale (proof of ownership) in exchange for a title and registration and then apply for a license to drive is the granting of jurisdiction needed by the state to push their draconian laws. That action is what has made mandatory auto insurance possible, not that driving is a privilege and not a right, but that those who have registered their vehicles with the DMV and obtained a license to drive have waived their natural rights in favor of belonging to a state club that operates by its own rules.

This is how police officers get away with towing your vehicle away and impounding it prior to any conviction and without any Due Process of Law, they are not bound by any Constitution because you have willingly surrendered your right to rely upon Constitutional Law in order to play along with the DMV, and this is how they managed to con you into believing that auto insurance is mandatory. Since driving is a right and not a privilege, those who know and understand their rights are not mandated to do anything.

When people declare "health care" a right, (of which it is), and by that they mean socialized medicine where plunder is made legal, and then turn around and argue that driving is not a right, (of which it is), then we have a serious problem in this country. Of course, it is clear we do have a serious problem in this country and the biggest problem is how many people so willingly declare basic natural God given rights as being a privilege granted by fallible and arrogant governments.

In terms of homeowner insurance, banks who have loaned a person money in order to purchase a house will mandate homeowners insurance to protect their collateral, but there are no laws that require people to own homeowners insurance. The ignorance of law among a populace presumed to know the law is astoundingly great and no longer tolerable in any way, shape or form.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

I have a gut feeling the "mandatory" requirement will be altered, well before 2014.

Let us hope so, but that is a mere four years away, hopefully Obama will be gone in 2012.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Just a guess here, based on nothing other than the Automobile and Housing Insurance industry as example....(just to name two)...

A whole can o'worms is likely going to be opened, when the States exert their 10th Amendment rights on this issue...becuase, the foot is in the door, and "you betcha!" the insurance companies are going to stay onboard with this 'mandatory' thing. But, it could very well turn into a State-mandated thing, rather than a Federally-mandated thing --- do you see?

I am hoping that the states actually make them repeal this bill, period.

They need to regulate the Healthcare Industry, not force us to buy insurance, to get cheaper care, because that is forcing us to go to a middleman.

That, weedwhacker, is extortion, plain and simple.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Just as auto insurance rates vary widely due to demographics, it could happen here too. Unless (or if you don't) want the Feds to impose limits on rates that can be charged, you will have to hope for the various State Legislatures to keep the lids on the rates...

But, in any case, that's just one idea that comes to mind, since the Insurance companies are a for-profit concern. One would hope that a type of 'free-market' influence will prevail, and people will have choices, to shop, thus triggering potential bargains and competitive pricing? (Just brainstorming...)

Now, the obvious (but not perfectly apt) comparison here is Auto Insurance, and the fact that it is mandated, mostly. Yes, it's State-mandated, and varies by jurisdiction. And, yes, it is because it assumes that driving your vehicle is a privelege, and not a right.

Sorry, when it comes to health, how much profit is too much?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
But, the actuarial tables they use to calculate the Auto rates are maddening! And, just look at the competition, lately.

See where I'm going with this?

Finally, the majority of Americans will have health care through their employers, I would think. We ALL already pay, in Social Security and Medicare taxes from wages. AND, nowadays most employers have the 'cafeteria-style' health benefits --- PPOs, HMOs, etc.

We are being taxed into stupidity, oh wait, by letting them tax us at-will, we are stupid, nevermind.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Things are goinog to change, and there will be alterations and amendments to the Bill.

I just can't help thinking about, historically, all the hue and cry about the implementation of Social Security, in the 1930s...or Medicare in 1965.

Sounds like much of the same rhetoric, spewing and misinforming mostly (mostly, I say) from those on the 'right' side of politics...

Unfortunately, not enough changes, for the people, will be done, it will only be in order to make profits spread out evenly, not actually cut our costs, like it should.

Regulate the Healthcare Industry, not make us purchase insurance, because if hospitals can make exorbitant amounts, and we pay a co-pay they still get paid too much.

See, to me this is as simple as paying someone way too much, and them getting muscle to reduce the cost, while you're paying extortion to that muscle.

Paying what equals a protection racket instead of actually stopping the crime.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

'tenth', I think that there has been a lot of drum-beating from the republicans (why, I have yet to understand....Obama envy?) that whips this topic, and they do a lot of mis-informing.

Oh, I can now guess why....next November!

They needed a strawman to worm their way back into the 'majority'.....

Sure, I bet there are plenty of Republicans, but I'm not one of them.

I think both sides, Republicans, and Democrats, are wrong, period.

It is high time to get off the partisan party supporting and support the citizens for once.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Thank you for your insightful post Mr. Zodeaux.

While I am quite familiar with the concept of insurance, I feel you may have missed my point.

American citizens do not have to own a car and the subsequent insurance nor do they have to buy a home and it's subsequent insurance. I understand the protection of a bank's investment.

The new health care reform act however, requires all U.S. citizens to have health insurance whether you want it or not.

Gone are the freedom of our choices. Gone are the rights to choose. This is a mandate pure and simple.

And a little FY for your eye...........

New Hampshire does NOT require automobile insurance if you own your vehicle free and clear. So in the "Live Free or Die" state you can actually choose whether you want auto insurance or not.

Becker

Health Care as a right was brought up by Dr. Benjamin Rush, one of the signers of the Constitution. The rest of our founding fathers gave it a big fat resounding HELL NO. Any Questions?

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
I'm a bit offended by those of you who are telling him to relax.

That's merely because they cannot see the writing on the wall, my friend.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Are you really not worried about what has transpired here? Do you really understand what kind of ridiculous precedent this sets for Congress if they are allowed to act this way?

These citizens are accustomed to bending over for the proctologist's in Washington D.C.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Against your interests as a nation?

Against your interests as per your Constitution?

Against your interests Globally and Domestically?

They would rather complain, whine, and bitch about it then do anything about it.

These citizens are cowards, they would rather hide behind guns and violence.

Instead of actually getting into office they drop to their knuckles like apes.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
You are all crazy out your minds if you think this is just one of the same bills that they've been passing for years.

There are some intelligent ones within these people, but very few will do anything.

They would much rather let someone else commit to actions then do it themselves.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
This is WORSE than the Patriot Act.

It sure is right up there with quite a few laws I could name and they believe this partisan, crap, is the way to go, Republican verses Democrat, like a cheerleader, sitting on the couch, screaming for their football team We won when they in fact lost, paying in for the T-shirts, hats, and pennants.

The same is what is going for those Republicans, they cheer for their side.

The same is what is going for those Democrats, they cheer for their side.

Little do they realize, both sides are in collusion, behind the scenes.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
If they are allowed to continue not listening to Americans who pay their salaries, are allowed to steal from you and give it to corporations who don't give a damn about you then you are not a patriot and do not deserve to live under the Flag you hold so dear.

This is the problem though in that these citizens believe, falsely I might add, that their party cares about them, they care about them as far as a crook, stealing money.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Wake up America, get on the bandwagon.

Enough is enough don't you think?

I'm not even American and I am thoroughly disgusted by this sort of legislation.

~Keeper

That is the problem, tothetenthpower, they are already on the bandwagon.

They are on the Republican bandwagon.

They are on the Democrat bandwagon.

They are not aware of these bandwagons leading them into captivity.

It is time to jump off the partisan bandwagons, and make their own platforms.

It is time to stop the bandwagon mentality, Republican or Democrat, because if you only have two choices, you have no choices, and we are being lead astray.

Why is it no one notices that only the Democrats or Republicans represent us?

When will the people actually represent themselves through a different political party?

I am not speaking of the Tea Party either, it was infiltrated, the moment it began.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

70-80% of the people didn't want this Obamacare. An overwhelming majority of the people were against the banker bailouts. A majority of Americans are against illegal immigration. Most people are against NAFTA and GATT. Most are now against the Patriot Act. Most are against all the wars.

We no longer have a representative Republic. We now live under a tyrannical government that no longer cares what the people think or want. It does what it wants and the people be damned.

Originally posted by greeneyedleo

But people can choose not to buy a house or drive a car or have life insurance. That is the difference

Its all a choice

Nobody is going to force me to do any of the above, even though I have excercised my freedom of choice, by doing all of the above

[edit on March 23rd 2010 by greeneyedleo]

Thank you very much, greeneyedleo.

This is correct, I can actually sell my car, and do not have to purchase insurance.

I can sell my home, if I had one, and not have to purchase insurance.

But, wait, quite simply because I am alive, I am forced to purchase insurance?

reply to post by Becker44



I did get your point and actually hesitated singling your post out in order to make my rant as I did not want to make you feel as if I was castigating you. I did get your point and I only wanted to expound upon that point and suggest that this current HCR Bill is just another intrusion in a long line of intrusions by both state and federal governments.

That post would actually be relevant if your were having to pay homeowners insurance under the threat of fines and jail while being homeless.
Edit to say I am very sorry about your situation, the fear I feel of knowing how close I am to being in your situation is bad enough, to actually be there... I couldn't imagine what that would to to me mentally.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by calstorm]

Three words:

Get Over It.

t's still astounding to me that any of you gripe, whine, bitch, moan & complain about ANYTHING our government does...left, right, liberal, conservative, Democrat, Republican, it doesn't matter...DON"T ANY OF YOU GET IT BY NOW ????

You want the real truth?

Whether performing or being interviewed I’ve heard George speak openly, frankly and sincerely about many subjects. He always stated that he felt betrayed by three things in life, as perhaps we all should…religion, government and his OWN SPECIES !!!

I don’t think I can say it any better than this guy !!!! (what an incredible mind he had)

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

In the next clip take note at 5:10 till the end when the young man asks about “hope” His insights into “no hope” and his so-called cynicism are brilliant not to mention that he sees mans only hope for survival as coming from aliens

www.youtube.com...

First off, I am not republican nor am I a democrat, hell, I'm not even American. But I'm literally getting p.o'd seeing all these threads about 'F*** Health care' and then another one 'Yay for Health Care' . If your going to speak ill of something, make sure you speak in the first person, not generalizing your whole country because not everyone agrees with you (I'm not referring only to the OP, I am referring to all of these threads, and to your president, who speaks in generalizing terms also).

Personally, I know their 2 very different kinds of health care, but here in Canada, I love my health care: Saved my father from cancer, saved me from bacterial meningitis, my cousin from leukemia, is currently treating my grandmother for lung cancer, treated me when I was 15 and got hit by a car, is treating my grandfather's arthritis, treated my uncle's prostate cancer, ect ect for---- no charge. But this is here. And I guess it really can't compare as to what I am hearing.

Few questions: How much is an average American going to pay for health care?

Is it going to be similar to Hawaii's government mandated health care, which they have had for close to 40 years and which they all seem to love?

And, if your living in your car, and posting here, it means you have a laptop, and/or running out your internet bill or your car battery, no?

If you could have an alternative to this health care reform, what would it be exactly?

Are you willing to help/share/pay for one of your citizens who is in dire need of medical help/treatment?

Thanks for your answers,

-Jimmy-

Originally posted by EndtheFed


We no longer have a representative Republic. We now live under a tyrannical government that no longer cares what the people think or want. It does what it wants and the people be damned.

And who let it happen? Americans.

''The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing.''


Walt Disney


-Jimmy-