Baby Bible Bashers, Christian child abuse?

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
"Betrothed" means 'engaged to be married" - basically. "Spoken for", "engaged", "taken" - what part of that verse are you mistaking for "rape"?

Did you read the quote at all? It says "if a manlays with a woman who is NOT betrothed." What part of that do you not understand? She is not engaged, spoken for, or taken and he is going to lay with her and she has no say. How do you get "not betrothed" as engaged to this man?

The "If her father refuses to give her to him" part? That means her hand in marriage. And in those days, again, the law of the land, which was enacted by mankind - required the exchange of money/jewels/treasure for a woman.

Yeah, it is just a dowry deal - when you completely ignore the fact that she was not engaged to him and he slept with her and that is the only reason dad has to give her up. She had no say and dad has no say. Dad only has the say in how much he gets for losing his daughter. The husband just has to sleep with a woman and she is obligated to be his. Read it again, please as you clearly misunderstood.

What part of that suggests that God condoned it? That was the law of the land then - and those laws were manmade - not by God.

And how did I "blatantly lie"?

You said Exodus does not mention witches and yet the very next verse after the one you quoted was about witches. You obviously did not even read my post all the way.

Originally posted by LarryLove
What in the world is going on here? Creationist indoctrination and kid preachers. Listening to the museum tour guide explain the world is no more than a few thousand years old and suggest that dinosaurs were all veg eaters until Adam and Eve. Do creationists also think that the world is flat and the sun revolves around it?

I don't know what to say. There have been similar battles in belief systems in the UK and thankfully young impressionable minds are kept away from religious fervor, for the most part anyway. That isn't to say creationism isn't creeping into school curriculum. It is, but not to the same degree as the American education system.

My jaw remains ajar with shear disbelief.

Heck what do you think they teach in Israel.
Those folks invented that creation stuff.
Didn't Chriatians invent an alternative to that stuff?
Oh yeah it's called Christianity.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Leviticus: 18

22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

]

and should be put to death, I got that. I just wanted you to admit it since you so adamantly insisted that the bible did not condone murder. In fact, you insisted that all my quotes about murder were outright lies until you accidentally posted one from your version as well. That was when you changed your tune and said it was ok cuz God said so. That is what we call shifting the goal posts and it is a sign of someone full of doubt but too much pride to admit it.

reply to post by nomorecruelty


Hey Nomo! Kinda nose'in around through here. Actually I been observing
what's going on here awhile and this guy has certainly made his point so I think we should shut down allthe churches forget all this God stuff, you
know Jesus dying for us and the lot. You've been doing great IMO.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

, even the New Testament clearly states exactly the same thing in Jude 7 "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." Any sinner should always remember that the God who commands us to love our neighbour is the same God who will cast any and all unrepentant sinners into the "eternal fire". Here are more Bible quotes, Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death." 1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals" 1 Tim 1:9-10 "realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers" Rom 1:26-27 "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."

[edit on 24-3-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by K J Gunderson


I still say the "rape" and "against the will" is not what those verses are referring to.

As far as Exodus not containing anything about witches - if it does, it is beyond the verse number you gave me - because that is what I copied/pasted into the Bible Gateway search engine.

You are feisty tonight?

lol

On that note, I will offer to revisit this conversation tomorrow night - it is 1:30 am and I have to be up at 7 am -

Thank you for the debate - it kept me on my toes, that's for sure.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

Homosexuals sometimes have very fruitful, and rich, lives - here on Earth. Look at Elton John for one celeb example.
A person's lifespan, gay or not gay, isn't dependent on sins - although I would imagine there are some people that God takes off the planet because of their evilness -

You are really starting to concern me. I know this. I was pointing this out. So now you need to explain what the bible means about putting them to death. You just admitted that God is not putting them to death so who is supposed to?

Please remember you have already backtracked and shifted your goal posts so this should be easy for you.

You are going to have to make up your mind. You are trying to claim that the bible does not condone murder anywhere and my quotes about putting people to death mean that God will kill them, not other people.

You have now admitted that God is not killing gay people and that he has given permission to stone people to death.

Pick an argument and stick with it.

We're pagan, and it is wrong to say that all parents get upset about the homosexual agenda, whatever that is. The only thing I get upset about, as a parent, is the "God hates gays' stuff. We don't have any problem with people being gay? If my child grows up and is gay, I don't care as long as he is happy. He just better figure out some way to get me some grandkids. lol Of course he's too interested in finding ways to meet girls for me to worry about that too much. If he becomes a Christian, that's ok with me too, or a Muslim, or whatever, as long as he is live and let live.

If people want to teach their kids to preach and carry on, that's ok. I don't think it is ok for people to teach their kids to be intrusive though.

reply to post by randyvs


lol Hey ya Randy !

You just caught me on my way out - you can take over for me - maybe you can do better than I obviously have -



G'nite all

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

Heck what do you think they teach in Israel.
Those folks invented that creation stuff.
Didn't Chriatians invent an alternative to that stuff?
Oh yeah it's called Christianity.

I dread to think, although it's just as horrifying as Islamic extremists filling kids heads with nonsense on an equal level.

People can believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt others. Tolerance never hurt anyone!

Last St. Patrick's day I was drinking Guinness with a Muslim and a Jew. I criticized the Muslim for drinking booze, and he told me it's all open for interpretation and nowhere in the Qran does it say he can't drink Guinness. The Jew then told me he believes the world's only a few 1000 years old...and I told him he's a fool. He laughed and ordered us another round. We had fun criticizing each other, was a fun Agnostic vs Muslim vs Jew discussion...but in the end we didn't let religion hold us back from having a good time.

The kids in those videos will NOT be able to enjoy a good time like that. They will be too narrow minded and intolerant. They'll be missing out.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by nomorecruelty

 

Hey Nomo! Kinda nose'in around through here. Actually I been observing
what's going on here awhile and this guy has certainly made his point so I think we should shut down allthe churches forget all this God stuff, you
know Jesus dying for us and the lot. You've been doing great IMO.

Is that honestly what you think I am trying to say? I am starting to see why people with the strongest faith seem to have the most trouble understanding their own book. Perhaps if you read instead of getting over-exited about empty rhetoric, you might see that I have not once tried to make that point.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
time.

The kids in those videos will NOT be able to enjoy a good time like that. They will be too narrow minded and intolerant. They'll be missing out.

I agree. Indoctrinated through and through without enough worldly experiences to think for themselves. Except maybe they will see the light. That is the real contrasting light of how the world really works.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
You have added in your interpretation of the words - the verse doesn't say, nor imply, that a "rape" took place, nor does it imply that the sex would be "against her will".

22:16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. 22:17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins. So if I sleep with a girl whether she likes it or not, she is my wife - even if I have to pay her father. She has no choice and does not have to be my wife before I sleep with her against her will.

Nope. It does not state anything about consent and you know as well as I do just how much consent women had in those days. Quote the whole damn book if you think it would help. I guarantee it will just show that this is a deal between men and she has no say.

You are also completely overlooking the fact that it says if the man were to LAY with a woman, not ENTICE. If he has sex with her, no mention of her wishes, then she is bound to be his wife. It says nothing of her choosing marriage. It clearly states that she is to be his wife simply because he slept with her.

I am not sure where you come from but women being forced to marry a man that had sex with them is not exactly willing.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

Originally posted by Zorzenon
It is fitting though that these are children saying this and that they are preaching a very poorly thought out "theory" (if indeed an imaginary friend can be construed as a theory and not just rubbish).

I can't watch the video.
So could you tell me who the imaginary friend is?

some god.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

LOL you either have yourself confused or me confused.......

I have no idea what you are asking now - I am trying, I really
am.

But I cannot make sense of what you are asking/saying about this
verse regarding the "rape" and/or "against her will".

Those verses do not say, nor imply anything about 'rape' or 'against' anyone's
will.

Sorry if I'm missing something?

You are completely missing the fact that she has no say in the marriage. She is bound to be his wife simply because she did not already belong to someone else when HE decided to LAY with her.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

I still say the "rape" and "against the will" is not what those verses are referring to.

As far as Exodus not containing anything about witches - if it does, it is beyond the verse number you gave me - because that is what I copied/pasted into the Bible Gateway search engine.

You are feisty tonight?

I am always feisty.

You did indeed lie because you clearly stated that Exodus does not mention witches at all.

The only thing I had off was the verse number and by one. You said it does not mention it at all- at all!

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Exodus 22:17 (King James Version) 17If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.
When man rewrites God's Word, he tends to mess up even the order of it? The KJ Bible's Exodus doesn't mention witches.

I got my quote from KJ and it was only a verse off.



It does just one verse down from what you pasted. Thought you knew your bible?

lol

On that note, I will offer to revisit this conversation tomorrow night - it is 1:30 am and I have to be up at 7 am -

Thank you for the debate - it kept me on my toes, that's for sure.

Hope you had fun, I did. Nothing personal.

p.s. I friended you because "respected foe" always translate to animosity and I do certainly respect your effort, work, and conviction. I would not bother if you were not a challenge to say the least. The will probably not stop me from coming across as a jerk though so feel free to hate me anyway. Cheers.

[edit on 24-3-2010 by K J Gunderson]

reply to post by K J Gunderson

Is that honestly what you think I am trying to say? I am starting to see why people with the strongest faith seem to have the most trouble understanding their own book. Perhaps if you read instead of getting over-exited about empty rhetoric, you might see that I have not once tried to make that point.

Negative. If that were the case the post would have been directed at you. I really don't believe you have that big an ego. I still don't quite understand what it is you are trying to shoe.

Something about not everyone is fully versed in their bible studies?

reply to post by K J Gunderson


Hello, thought I'd jump straight in and ask if we could get back to the questions this post presents rather than lessons in scripture. I'm curious. Do you think there's a difference between a kid being groomed for preaching and one for beauty pageants? Are both acceptable?

reply to post by MrXYZ


Why don't you thing nomorecruelty doesn't have any tolerance, and is judging others? I don't see that at all. Nomorecruelty has been extremely tolerant in this thread, which I probablly would have gotten fed up a long time ago. I see nomorecruelty as defending his/her beliefs, and trying to teach/correct those who are misunderstanding what the beliefs are.

To me if a child is old enough to make a decision to accept Jesus Christ and know fully well what they are doing, then I feel they are old enough to preach the word.

As far as Harry Potter goes, he is purely evil. I'll let someone much more experienced in these matters tell you why I believe they are so evil, if you wish to know. This is just about the first book that was written. The others get much worse. HARRY POTTER AND THE SORCERER'S STONE -- BOOK REVIEW

gtfo?? Hmmmm So you are swearing at nomorecruelty, and therefore judging. All I can do is pray you find Jesus before it is too late, and you find your self where you don't want to be after you depart from this world. I pray that you will never have proof through seeing or experiencing any of Satan's demons, and that God will show you other proof. I gained proof through personal experience the hard way, and wouldn't wish it on anyone else.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Is that honestly what you think I am trying to say? I am starting to see why people with the strongest faith seem to have the most trouble understanding their own book. Perhaps if you read instead of getting over-exited about empty rhetoric, you might see that I have not once tried to make that point.

Negative. If that were the case the post would have been directed at you. I really don't believe you have that big an ego. I still don't quite understand what it is you are trying to shoe.

Something about not everyone is fully versed in their bible studies?

Ok ok, my bad. You only said this guy and you were talking to the person that was basically only talking to me at the time so I took it the wrong way. My ego might be big but it is still not the case. All I was trying to point out was that...well...now I forget how it started anyway. LOL. I will have to look. I did not mean to derail.

I think the thread topic is most interesting, I just got caught up in something so I will get back to you.

Oh yea, ok.

Back on page one

originally posted by nomorecruelty
No where does the Bible condone rape - or murder - or abortion. MANKIND committed these sins, and the Bible has documented those incidents.......but if you read the Ten Commandments, you will see that none of those are "condoned" or mandated.

I simply pointed out that it actually did. Then it turned into a debate about whether or not it said it. NMC said my bible was wrong and it did not say these things at all. Then stoning showed up and it said some of these things but it made them ok with a GOJF card. Then there was the whole Exodus does not even mention witches so I was way off when in actuality the exact phrase is just a verse down in the KJ version that NMC said did not contain that and here we are.

Scary videos of them kids though huh?

[edit on 24-3-2010 by K J Gunderson]