What are thoughts? What creates self-awareness, what is it? What's the threshold of sentience?

i suppose consciousness can be defined in different ways, but i believe that many animals are conscious and self-aware. i don't think it would be possible to have emotions without awareness of self and others and animals certainly have emotions.

it's difficult for me to acknowledge the idea that consciousness is a property of language unless the meaning of language in this instance is communication.

again, most animals are conscious yet don't have language … unless you consider the communication methods of animals to be language. elephants, for example, we know have amazing memory and grieve for other elephants when they die. to me, this certainly indicates self-awareness.

anyone who has a dog or cat or many other pets knows without doubt that they are able to convey an astonishing array of emotions and though there is always the risk of projecting humanistic qualities onto animals, i am certain of seeing my dogs experience elation, despair, jealousy, embarrassment and myriad other states of emotion. and this indicates to me, without doubt, that they are therefore distinctly aware of others and consequently, themselves.

Originally posted by kindred
I also wouldn't call parasites postive considering their only goal in life is to procreate and at the same same time infect and kill everything in their path while causing nothing but pain and suffering.

but does a parasite actively think it is infecting and killing everything in its path causing nothing but pain and suffering? or are those simply the results of its only active goals which, i assume, would be to survive and reproduce?

i wouldn't think that parasites are evil. while i can appreciate amazingly complex behavior by them, i question a level of awareness and complexity that would allow them to self-identify as a negative force intent on destruction.

reply to post by Hadrian


Or ants for that matter -- you can eat them - they're killed all the time. But look at an ant -- it looks like it has individual self-awareness -- yet it relies on SMELL as consciousness -- again smell is quantum consciousness -- smell bypasses the frontal cortex and goes straight to the cerebrum.

But you can sense -- be self-aware -- of self smell -through proprioreception.

What is it -- the sense of touch as an electromagnetic sensation of the neurons!!

Here's a good example. The brainport - turn touch of the tongue into vision!!

www.youtube.com...

vision.wicab.com...

So all the self aware senses can be translated and mixed through pure electromagnetic sensations as self awareness.

[edit on 21-3-2010 by drew hempel]

Originally posted by Hadrian

Originally posted by kindred
I also wouldn't call parasites postive considering their only goal in life is to procreate and at the same same time infect and kill everything in their path while causing nothing but pain and suffering.

but does a parasite actively think it is infecting and killing everything in its path causing nothing but pain and suffering? or are those simply the results of its only active goals which, i assume, would be to survive and reproduce?

i wouldn't think that parasites are evil. while i can appreciate amazingly complex behavior by them, i question a level of awareness and complexity that would allow them to self-identify as a negative force intent on destruction.

Do you think parasites can see as far as humans?

No way, they don't even know where they are at, they don't even have eyes. It's just an infinite circle.

reply to post by Nostradumbass


The brainport - turn touch of the tongue into vision!!

www.youtube.com...

vision.wicab.com...

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by Nostradumbass

 

The brainport - turn touch of the tongue into vision!!

www.youtube.com...

vision.wicab.com...

That's really cool actually. It would be interesting to experience (but not because I actually must ) And I thought only those little chemically-treated dots of paper did that.

Originally posted by kindred
Do you think parasites can see as far as humans?

No way, they don't even know where they are at, they don't even have eyes. It's just an infinite circle.

no, i don't. that was kinda my point. i don't believe parasites (at least microscopic ones which is what i think we were talking about?), in general, have any sort of consciousness whatsoever. they have a primordial drive to live and reproduce. we may look at their efforts to do so as negative, but even if they could ponder their "goodness," i imagine they wouldn't see themselves as so bad - it's their nature.

Originally posted by Hadriani don't believe parasites (at least microscopic ones which is what i think we were talking about?), in general, have any sort of consciousness whatsoever. they have a primordial drive to live and reproduce.

What do you base this on? Simply your own idea of what it must be like to be a parasite and how far they can see?

reply to post by camelian


books.google.com... ei=F-CmS-ypHcKVtgfS0OSCCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Amoeba protozoa = neurons.

Originally posted by camelian

What do you base this on? Simply your own idea of what it must be like to be a parasite and how far they can see?

yeah, pretty much, but don't yell at me. i said "i don't believe ... "

language is not a self communication tool, it is for objective communication with all subjects different ones
that is why language is always meaning informations about realities grounds

self communications is through the living subjective expressions, which is under the whole objective reality of the subject one

so it is through considerations given to whole objective reality as a living one which would necessarly initiate an awareness from it out, that would also necessary mean to reply through positive considerations of another reality living or the considerations of what was considered, that what lead to absolute communications life

so you see how im right in saying that awareness is always from an objective touch, immediately a free detachement rise out as aware of it and must be above it somehow to stay existing aware as it is free

so truth is like at the begining maybe awareness out of objective certainty abstract reality presence, what some need to be moved by agressive touchs for truth it is the same but without getting physical at all

reply to post by Hadrian

no, i don't. that was kinda my point. i don't believe parasites (at least microscopic ones which is what i think we were talking about?), in general, have any sort of consciousness whatsoever. they have a primordial drive to live and reproduce.

I completely agree. IMO, the brain is key piece of hardware required to enable self-awareness. Without the brain, there is no mechanism with which that organism may compute and process information, nor do anything else. Sentience doesn't just come from no where, it can be studied and understood, and we will create thinking machines in the future. But people conclude that a very simple organism is self-aware, when it's obviously not, and has no need at all for self-awareness. Given enough time to evolve, yes, it probably will become self-aware, but most life on Earth isn't self-aware at this stage. However, humans aren't the only self-aware life forms on Earth, and you summed that up really well, I also enjoyed those videos posted by another user.

reply to post by drew hempel

Thoughts come from electromagnetic fields.

Indeed, any half-intelligent person could tell you thoughts generate EMR, but that hardly describes what thoughts are.

[edit on 22/3/10 by CHA0S]

reply to post by jokei

Just because something can reproduce effectively, doesn't mean that it's self-aware, look at viruses, fungus etc.

That's exactly what I said...

reply to post by KrypticCriminal

Animals do have the ability to communicate and are self aware. I bet if they had some of the evolutionary attributes we have ei. opposable thumbs. They would build there own complex societys over time. If allowed to do so.

Some animals have the ability to communicate and some are self-aware...but the exact reason most species aren't self-aware is because the don't have complex societies and forms of communication, nor the cognitive power required to spark self-awareness. They simply function more efficiently by following their genetic programming. They are simply organic machines programmed to survive most efficiently in their given environment. Humans are also organic machines, but we are sentient organic machines IMO.

As for putting RAM in a robot and it remebering and collecting data. Sorry but it would only collect the data that you programmed it to collect. So you cant even make a comparison there.

My robot has memory, humans have memory...and it could collect anything in it's range of senses (say equivalent to human senses), it could collect and store all the same memories as we do...what's the real difference...it isn't our ability to remember things which makes us self-aware...it's a higher function which enables us to share, study and access memories unlike a robot, and it's this same function that gives us free-will and the ability to make decisions beyond the mere coding of our DNA. Dreams and thoughts are not contained in DNA, or any of the information that goes into making up a human being...but yet we posses the ability dream and to be original and creative...

[edit on 22/3/10 by CHA0S]

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
If you manage to disrupt that process, the sense of someone watching these things from a personal, interior viewpoint is lost and instead of "I am experiencing X", there simply "you" and "X" being the same thing. So, for example, it's not you seeing "red" but rather "you" and "red" are intimately one and the same thing.

Of course, now I see your point with more clarity. Yeah, I said on my other post that the observer and observed to be same thing, and that goes with experiences too. Experience and experiencer are same thing in certain level. Without experiencer there couldn't be experience either.

So by saying that there is no observer, you meant that there is no observer distinct of observation?

I am glad you opened up your meaning. Thank you for that.

-v

I think it's a rather rash judgment to assume that life forms such as fungus are not self-aware. We have absolutely no way of knowing that. On the contrary, inanimate objects such as rocks and things of that nature, simply just Be. They are far more Zen and in-balance with the harmonial laws of the universe than we are...so who is to say they're not a more advanced organism?

Originally posted by v01i0
So by saying that there is no observer, you meant that there is no observer distinct of observation?

I have to answer with some caution. We have "A is B" and the language tend to imply causal, temporal or multi-part relationships where things are better understood in unity. To say there is no observer or that the observer is indistinct from the observed is truely meant to convey a sense of irrelevance of a distinction. Why label these entities other than for the purpose of grammatical convenience and rules of syntax? Collapse it into singularity and the need for consideration evaporates.

i dont think that there is such thing as the observed while the observer is no doubt the existing

when you say observed you are meaning the present reality in unity sense while you are observing that present being a part of

you have no ability to observe something particularly when apparantly god cannot be objective and always must mean a will, so you more of course cant be detached independant out of needs alone

Consciousness is a state where the soul is feel to participate in the circulation of spirit energy. The higher the consciousness the greater the intensity and purity of spirit the soul can conduct and the greater the awareness. It's simple a matter of proportions. More spirit, less matter, more awareness.

The purpose of life here is to clear the blockages that prevent a soul from maximizing it's conscious potential. "Self-Aware" is a term, generally used to indicate the soul has distinguished it's existence from the forces of the body and mind (from matter). "Self-Aware" is not created but realized. It is arrived at by detachment from the body and mind. This is not, in itself, a high state, rather an opportunity to pursue the spiritual path.

The "soul" is associated with covers that support it's consciousness in associate with a plane of existence. As the "soul" descended from the purely spiritual, it takes covers associated with each plane in it's decent. The mind is a cover as is the body. To perceive and operate at this plane you must have a cover and faculties (senses) of this plane, for this plane such as the eyes, ears, etc.. This is true of any plane of existence.

"self-awareness" is not to be confused with being fully conscious at the third eye or higher.

reply to post by ReelView


sorry to disagree fundamentally with you

you are not higher unless you give to highest and objectively which mean really truly

a soul whatever awareness becoming more conscious of its true conception cannot be in truth considered existing if it is not at a point superior to truth existence
there is no way to be at a point superior to truth existence unless you give it life

so as there are gods there noway in eternity level to dream about giving truth anything

but we have here that truth can consider us superior to it and protecting our lives

reply to post by imans


and yes you are what you realize, whatever your connection to a soul connected to an awareness level about truth objective freedom, it is nothing at all and surely not you

it is simply the true condition of your existence and your true condition of life is also to give existence truth life

and this is also not you, but you are then