I saw a shoplifter today.

Originally posted by murphyhurtme
i'm going to go ahead and take this time to say that anyone who uses violence against a child is a coward. most people who hold this view in my opinion got no balls and no spine...they are getting their nose busted.

He angrily typed, as he shook his fist toward the monitor and clenched his jaw, sternly.

What if the child came from a home with no food and was starving?

What would your reaction to someone being treated like this who was actually homeless and starving, or came from a home where they have been neglected and abused?

It happens all the time, and more so now with the economy the way it is.

I personally watched a mother take her children into a store to steal food items, it seemed as if they had done it before, and were able to get away with some slim jim snacks and lunch-meat this time.

Should I have reported it?

Maybe some people are better at stealing than others, and if it had been anything other than food items I may have had a different reaction. The mother and children appeared to be very poor, and possibly illegal aliens.

You never know, one day you may find yourself in such a desperate situation that you too would attempt to steal a box of candy, or anything to eat.

Food for thought.

reply to post by murphyhurtme


nah, the kid deserves to be punished. what he did was wrong. but you don't have to resort to violence to teach children. and you don't have to get in their face and scream and cause them psychological damage. no I'm not saying punishing kids is wrong, but there are certain lines that should never be crossed.

No violence was done to this child. Psychological damage? Oh, grow up. A kid is not psychologically damaged because he gets yelled at for a few minutes for doing something he should not have done.

Everybody I know was yelled, screamed at and had our butts busted both at home and in public when we did something wrong and not a one of us is psychologically damaged.

If it was my kid, I would not be upset at the way it was handled. Probably taught the kid a lesson and was much better than letting the kid leave the store and calling the cops on him.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


There are many legal ways to feed yourself or your family, without resorting to theft. The only exception I have is in the case of catastrophies. Then, only to provide for subsistence. Not candy.

reply to post by WTFover


Have you ever been in such a situation?

As for a child, especially those in broken homes what can they do alone, where can they go?

Obviously this child didn't have the ability to pay, and we simply do not know why.

Without knowing the details you really cannot judge anyone.

Hunger can make a thief out of anyone.

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
reply to post by WTFover

 

Have you ever been in such a situation?

I have not been in a situation where theft was the only option, no. And, this incident was not one of them, either.

As for a child, especially those in broken homes what can they do alone, where can they go?

If you mean other than friends, family and neighbors ... give me a location (in the U.S.) and in a few minutes I can have a list for you.

Obviously this child didn't have the ability to pay, and we simply do not know why.

We are talking about "mints", here, remember?

Hunger can make a thief out of anyone.

Again ... Mints? I don't think that is going to satisfy hunger.

reply to post by inthesticks


yeah, but that all happened by the parents. not some idiot working as a cashier at a corner store. i guess it's hard to convince 50 year old midlife crisis baby boomers that beating kids is wrong since life was so much harder back then when moon pies were ten cents or whatever. i guess beating your kids was more acceptable then. you can say i got beat all the time and i turned out fine, but you could also say someone went to prison and turned out okay, but you still wouldn't want your kid to go. you need to make the distinction that i am making here between discipline and abuse. i am not saying it is not okay to put your kid in check from time to time, and it's bad parenting not to. it's something you got to do. but you don't need to scream at a child or get in their face and why hit them? in my opinion that's taking it too far.




[edit on 3/20/2010 by murphyhurtme]

The BEST thing any kid can feel is the feeling of dishonesty.

If a kid does something wrong, you have only taught them a listen when they go to a room and cry on their own for realizing what they have done is wrong.

We all know the smallest things in life have such a lasting impact. I been in the same situations as this fella' and what happened is probably about as best as it things could have went.

Like others have said. No violence. No authority.

Originally posted by rcwj1975
And this is why the youth of todays society are so F'd up and the world as we know it has gone to s---! Glad to hear you'll teach your son some personal responsibility....instead lets teach him daddy will bail him out of anything and then try and get money out of the potential victim.....way to add to the downfall

This is indeed why this world is so F'd up. You quickly determine what this kids motivation was with no more information that I had, and you would teach them that ganging up on a defenseless person is the "right" thing to do when you "think" they broke the law.

The kid didn't actually steal anything... his pockets were empty, and his confession wouldn't stand up in any court anywhere.

And we wonder where the kids today get that mentality, here you guys are cheering it on. Kids are not a different species than adults. Their rights are not superseded by their age. A crime committed against that kid is still a crime....but not if the right motivation is behind it? How many kids have suffered at the hands of people who were just teaching them a lesson?

You wonder where respect for the law has gone? Yet you present no respect for that same law. It's exactly your attitude that makes this world the way it is. There is a reason that we don't chop off a persons hand for stealing.

My kids know it's against the law to steal, so they don't do it, and they don't befriend people that do. They treat others with respect and accept nothing less from other people. But my kids also do not accept their own rights being trampled on because of the suspicion of someone else. Not even if that person is some king s--t cop who thinks "they are the law".

..Ex

Originally posted by v3_exceed
This is indeed why this world is so F'd up. You quickly determine what this kids motivation was with no more information that I had, and you would teach them that ganging up on a defenseless person is the "right" thing to do when you "think" they broke the law.

First off the information you GAVE, using common sense (yeah I know tough to come by for some), tells us that SOMEONE saw this kid attempt to pocket/pants the mints..meaning STEAL them and told him to go to the register. YOU saw nothing, you admit this, so how you NOW have an opinon on what actually occured blows my mind. Wait, actually it doesn't...you instead speak through/from emotion of a situation you happen to disagree with RATHER then FACTS alone...how typical on ATS for some.

The kid didn't actually steal anything... his pockets were empty, and his confession wouldn't stand up in any court anywhere.

Who cares about court...this isnt about the legal system. This is about PEOPLE trying to show the kid that others WON'T put up with having their stuff stolen. The fact he didn't leave the store with the item is moot...his INTENTIONS were to steal it and by being told to go to the register he was caught in the act BEFORE he could do so. We have all been 10 and done stuff we shouldn't..and we SHOULD all know that watching a kid that age doing something he shouldn't is VERY easy to pick up on...

by the way, you ever think his pockets were empty because they got to him before he stuffed them in there? And depending on how long he was in there he could of put something in his pockets BEFORE the mint incident..so they checked.

And we wonder where the kids today get that mentality, here you guys are cheering it on. Kids are not a different species than adults. Their rights are not superseded by their age. A crime committed against that kid is still a crime....but not if the right motivation is behind it? How many kids have suffered at the hands of people who were just teaching them a lesson?

Cheering what on, teaching kids its wrong to attempt to steal? Oh stop with the KIDS have rights BS...THAT is why the youth today kills, rapes, robs, steals, etc...they aren't guided anymore...and sometimes guided by a stern voice or a heavy hand. How many schools were shot up back in the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, or even 70's when cracking your kid on the a@@ was the standard? How many kids were robbing folks at gun point, knife point, beating them for their sneakers, and a whole list of other stuff? Find that answer and tell me good dicipline dosn't work..compared to the go do what you want style of parenting today. Or in your case, cover for them, sue, get money and let the kid continue to think its ok to be a thief because daddy will take care of me.

Now I do agree there are some who DON'T know the difference between a spanking and abuse, an a@@ chewin and verbal abuse, or to simply talk to the kid vs being irrational, but that majority IMO should understand what it means. The SCARY part is the kids right now who are NOT taking responsibility, who are NOT being diciplined, who are NOT being held accountable, will one day be parents themselves....oh JOY!!!! Nothing like passing on your BS to your kids...

You wonder where respect for the law has gone? Yet you present no respect for that same law. It's exactly your attitude that makes this world the way it is. There is a reason that we don't chop off a persons hand for stealing.

WHAT? Your gonna need to clarify as this is plainly just babble.

My kids know it's against the law to steal, so they don't do it, and they don't befriend people that do. They treat others with respect and accept nothing less from other people. But my kids also do not accept their own rights being trampled on because of the suspicion of someone else. Not even if that person is some king s--t cop who thinks "they are the law".

..Ex

I hope your right about your kids, because many parents think our kids are perfect and would never...well history has pretty much told us you can throw that out the window....so in REALITY we know they will do wrong and its the parents job AND society as a whole to set an example and to address an issue when it occurs.

As for your "king s--- cop" remark. I ma not looking at this as a cop, I am looking at this as a guy, a person, a citizen, AN ADULT! I am approaching this from a perspective of what should be done and how by PEOPLE in general and I agree with a kid being yelled at for trying to steal from someone. You so fixated on the fact that he got yelled at and cried that your emotions cloud the BIG PICTURE...he learned something that day....DON'T STEAL because when you take other peoples stuff without paying or permission they get pissed off. He will also learn that they are ok guys...why...because as he grows up he can say wow, they could of called the cops, coulda called my parents, could whooped my behind..but NO, they chewed me out and let me go to learn that IIIIII did wrong.

In my opinion, I don't believe that the kid should have been yelled at. He's a little ten year old kid who is still learning right from wrong. I fell bad for him because they made him cry. I don't understand how some of you people can see that as being ok.

reply to post by Shoomoo


The shopkeepers broke the law here on many counts;

1) it is illegal to release an under-aged child without notifying parents once apprehended for suspicion of shoplifting. There was a case in the UK where a child was caught shoplifting at a retail store the managers and security staff scared him by stating they would inform his parents, he committed suicide as he was too scared to go home.

2) Some have stated and correctly so, that the Law (at least in the UK) requires that there is no loss of observation in the stages of committing a theft, the last stage prior to arrest is the exit from the premises without intention to pay for the goods.

The child and his family have a legal case against the store as the store has a duty to inform the authorities/parents and release him only to them.

Also if you doubt point 2 - good security staff are trained to ensure that someone leaves the store and is not just popping out to check on something as they could contest they were intending to return to pay for goods - one case of a guy who was checking on his bike to see if it was still safe.

There is also another side which involves scammers trying to provoke a false arrest by pretending to steal and then when out of sight they put the items back, once arrested outside the store they sue for false arrest as there is o proof of theft.

Far more complicated than you think, but in this case the store is highly at risk of litigation.


*edit to also add that no questioning may be performed without adult supervision*

[edit on 20-3-2010 by pixanomaly]

I see this as one of those incidents that might be a painful momentary experience but later down the road, it's one he'll be thankful for.

As they say, it's better to learn our hard lessons in our youth. A fierce talking to now vs. thousands of dollars worth of fines or a jail sentence later.

reply to post by pixanomaly


unfortunately this happened in the U.S, so im guessing its different

reply to post by Rocketgirl


they had a diifferent childhood, where yelling and worse was ok, but the problem is that this is modern times, where such happening is frowned upon more than a small shoplift.

Originally posted by Shoomoo
reply to post by pixanomaly

 

unfortunately this happened in the U.S, so im guessing its different

The US being a far more litigious society I would suspect that the laws run along the same lines, especially where minors are concerned.

Edit to add;
Checked, in the US a child under the age of 16 is considered an unemancipated minor thus the responsibility is imputed to the legal guardians/parents. So I cant see why they are not informed.

Furthermore you stated in your OP that the shopkeepers were trying to extract a confession under duress of an attempt to steal. It may be argued that a 10 year old would have admitted to anything to get out of the situation, note they didn't have proof in their statement of a theft just an attempt.

Any child of that age finding themselves in that situation should be instructed to demand his/her parents be contacted and not to say or submit to a search under any circumstances. The last point for other more pertinent issues.

just my 2 cents

[edit on 20-3-2010 by pixanomaly]

Originally posted by pixanomaly
Any child of that age finding themselves in that situation should be instructed to demand his/her parents be contacted and not to say or submit to a search under any circumstances. The last point for other more pertinent issues.

Okay li'l Johnny. When you get caught swiping some loot, keep your trap shut, see. Just clam up, see. Don't tell them coppers nothing, see.

How about telling your kid to not steal? How about telling him that, if he does, he will just have to suffer the consequences, on his own? And, the consequences at home will be much more severe?

Originally posted by WTFover

Originally posted by pixanomaly
Any child of that age finding themselves in that situation should be instructed to demand his/her parents be contacted and not to say or submit to a search under any circumstances. The last point for other more pertinent issues.

Okay li'l Johnny. When you get caught swiping some loot, keep your trap shut, see. Just clam up, see. Don't tell them coppers nothing, see.

How about telling your kid to not steal? How about telling him that, if he does, he will just have to suffer the consequences, on his own? And, the consequences at home will be much more severe?

Not very fitting for Colombo really;
Re-read the OP - a child is witnessed by a member being accused of theft by shopkeepers, pretty much an intimidation of the child. The advice to anyone witnessing such an act is what I prescribed - tell them not to say anything or accept anything until their parents are called (or the authorities), here it is better to defend the childs rights.

you are being obtuse if you dont grasp the deeper issues here;
Anyones child may be accused of stealing even if they never committed the offense, they are likely to admit it under duress even if they were not responsible. It is not for the shopkeepers to judge the fact - only to detain under suspicion of an act being committed, they should call the police or parents so that it can be ascertained whether the child did commit the act.

What is to say that one of the shopkeepers wasn't mistaken, or that someone else attempted to steal (even a person working in the shop).

As to subjecting to a search, there have been incidences whereby a minor has been coerced into, how can i put this mildly, "dating" a member of staff/security so as not to get into trouble with the authorities/parents.

My advice is that no matter how law abiding you or your children are, these things will and do happen in the real world and it is far more prudent to be in attendance to ensure the truth is ascertained.

Even you as an adult (a presumption on my part) are afforded the basic right of a lawyer before interrogation, furthermore you have the 5th amendment.

Originally posted by Rocketgirl
In my opinion, I don't believe that the kid should have been yelled at. He's a little ten year old kid who is still learning right from wrong. I fell bad for him because they made him cry. I don't understand how some of you people can see that as being ok.

Kids cry. It's what they do when they get in trouble and realize it. How will he have learned the lesson if he doesn't feel the consequences?

He was caught and reprimanded harshly (though how harshly is debatable since all we have is second hand knowledge of the event) and clearly from anecdotal evidence felt the pangs of guilt and remorse.

No one learns right from wrong without being exposed to the consequences of the wrongs in some capacity. Sure there are a dozen different ways to teach a kid a lesson, but the best ones, the ones that stick forever are the ones that scare the kid #less.

[edit on 3/21/2010 by eNumbra]

This sort of reminds me of a woman that must have been in her late 70s slipping a package of meat into her bag one time when I was shopping. It was one of those situations where you know it was wrong, but reporting someone that has realistically no employment opportunities and probably lives on a meager government social security handout seemed to be wrong too. I felt I could not do anything, but ignore it.

Most of us have some type of line where what was wrong is no longer wrong or perhaps less wrong. Personally, I see nothing wrong with giving the kids a hard time, but cringe at the those at the other end of the age spectrum getting the same treatment. So, I can understand that many have different feelings about our youth, That perhaps they should be given some lenience due to their age. That perhaps they are just learning what is right and wrong and have parents that failed to teach them the basics of what is expected in society.

So, maybe they went too far in the treatment of the child, but we seem to be a nation where the police are called now for anything. Where extreme actions are becoming the accepted action. I think in the past that the child may have just been scolded and sent on their way after the item was given back. A lesson learned that perhaps will help change the child.

So many shades of gray in life in such situations. It's often hard to decide what is the right thing to do.