Proof that there were NO explosives in the collapse of WTC 2 (South Tower)

reply to post by redgy

Explosions that were heard that day were also put down to being from,

You forgot about bombs, demolition.
Yes, it could be many things, but let us not discount “demolitions” since the government did NOT investigate it.

Quick...read this

##ATTENTION ALL 9/11 POSTERS##

The bickering in this thread stops now. Discuss the subject sensibly and civilly without resorting to schoolyard taunts and attempts to bait each other.

If you can't do that, don't post.

Lets see if we can raise the bar here and have a quality discussion based on evidence and fact, instead of supposition and flame bait.

Click here to learn more about this warning.

Response: Sorry, I walked into it and got the brunt of this crack down and apparently shortly after the Mod posted as I had not seen his post even though I have not been very active in this thread or topic... Oh well live and learn and never let others drag you down to thier level... Sorry Mods.












[edit on 19-3-2010 by hawkiye]

reply to post by esdad71

My point here is that there is no sound during the videos that would show demolition. None. In the video it shows the collapse at the point of failure. How can you not see that in the video. It is there, then buckles, and it collapses where the plane hit. Not 30 stories down. Not 50 down. No explosions.

The camera is zoomed in at the point of impact. You can't see what's happening above that point.

It just crashes top down, from that video there is no telling where the collapse initiated, since you can't see the top of the building.

Even if it did, why did the rest of the building below the impact point fall down without resistance. Why didn't the top fall sideways?

Please say pancake, cause that is physically impossible.

You take 3 videos in wich explosions can't be heared, and ignore the hundreds of eye-witness acounts on video claiming they heard explosions, and that's police and firemen to.

The firemen even speak about detonators, boom, boom, boom.

You have no response to that, you just ignore it.

reply to post by impressme


wasn't trying to discount that explosions heard couldn't be from bombs or explosives either.

there was many people who believe that this is what these sounds were and others who put them down to something entirely different.

was any explosives found or seen.
going by the official report, no.
and yes, this doesn't still prove either way if there were any or not.

from my opinion alone, some of these reports were looked into, some of the calls made about suitcases, bombs or suspicious vehicles in or around the area.
the place was filled with experts from all fields, some of who travelled up and down these same buildings, some of these post explosions fought by the firefighters. But still no sign of explosives.

well none that has been made public anyway.
www.thememoryhole.org...




[edit on 19-3-2010 by redgy]

Originally posted by hawkiye

Originally posted by jthomas

Currently, they have been asked to explain the errors they made in a recruitment video discussed in this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

We're waiting for A&E's response.

The burden of proof remains on A&E to support its own claims.

Well you will have to be specific as to what errors you think they made. All I got from the thread was an argument over what fire fighters said what and when etc. I did not read the entire thread...

Read my posts in that thread and get back to me if you have any questions.

Originally posted by impressme
reply to post by redgy

 

Explosions that were heard that day were also put down to being from,

You forgot about bombs, demolition.
Yes, it could be many things, but let us not discount “demolitions” since the government did NOT investigate it.

NIST discounted bombs for the very simple facts that a) the collapses are not a mystery by the evidence and are easily explained, and b) nothing presented to date has refuted NIST's investigation.

Making claims that don't refute the actual evidence and investigations, but are based solely on that some other unneeded causal agent hasn't been considered is pointless and meaningless. One may as well consider Judy Wood's Space Beams or rats in the basement just because they "weren't considered."

The 9/11 Truth Movement has to actually refute the investigations, not just make claims about them. That you "have questions" does not mean that the questions are legitimate - they have to be convincing and deal with the actual evidence. No logical, convincing, and overwhelming evidence has ever been presented that actually would convince anyone to hold yet another investigation.

Two buildings with differing damage in different locations end up collapsing the exact same way. Nothing controlled or suspicious about that, huh?

The only thing legitimate about two such differing occurrences with identical results (a virtual impossibility) is that someone is trying to pull your chain.

[edit on 19-3-2010 by SphinxMontreal]

Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
Two buildings with differing damage in different locations end up collapsing the exact same way. Nothing controlled or suspicious about that, huh?

The only thing legitimate about two such differing occurrences with identical results (a virtual impossibility) is that someone is trying to pull your chain.

[edit on 19-3-2010 by SphinxMontreal]

Both hit by the same type of plane in the same manner covering roughly the same amount of floor area upon initial impact.

The South tower, although hitting seventeen minutes after the North Tower, collapsed first only 56 minutes after the initial impact.

The North tower, although hit first, did not collapse until almost half an hour after the South Tower.

North Tower - 93-99 floor impact
South tower - 77-85 floor impact

Each tower was roughly 500,000 tons

110 floors = 4,500 tons a floor.

The North tower had 45,000 tons of weight above the impact zone pressing down on the impact.

The South tower had 148,500 tons of weight above it, almost three times as much, pressing down on the impact. That is 30% of the tower's own weight.

Is it really any wonder why they collapsed in the order they did, or how they did? Try taking 30% of your weight and holding it above your head for an hour while getting burned.

Originally posted by CalibratedZeus

North Tower - 93-99 floor impact
South tower - 77-85 floor impact

Each tower was roughly 500,000 tons

110 floors = 4,500 tons a floor.

The North tower had 45,000 tons of weight above the impact zone pressing down on the impact.

The South tower had 148,500 tons of weight above it, almost three times as much, pressing down on the impact. That is 30% of the tower's own weight.

Is it really any wonder why they collapsed in the order they did, or how they did? Try taking 30% of your weight and holding it above your head for an hour while getting burned.

Using your reasoning, the South Tower should have hit the ground three times faster than the North Tower, with over three times the weight above the impact zone.

But it did not did it? The official collapse times were 11 seconds for the North Tower and 10 seconds for the South Tower. Only 9.1 % faster.

title: National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
authors: Phillip Zelikow, et.al.

At 9:58:59, the South Tower collapsed in ten seconds

govinfo.library.unt.edu...

Even the pseudo-scientist Thomas Eagar admitted tower collapse times of 10 seconds near freefall. Then he blatantly lied and stated there was no time for portions of the towers to attain lateral (sideways) velocity.

Lateral velocity: the component of an objects's velocity in a sideways direction

Such dishonesty. Hundreds of 4 ton exterior wall sections were hurled in all directions from both towers up to 600 feet away at velocities up to 55 mph.

LIAR.

It takes explosive forces to eject 4 ton and heavier steel pieces sideways at 55 mph.

Thomas Eagar

This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour. If it had been free fall, with no restraint, the collapse would have only taken eight seconds and would have impacted at 300 km/h.

. . . . . . . .

Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity.

www.tms.org...

Still bolted together in groups 3 and 4 units high, 5 to 7 units wide, 4-Tons each, 25 units in a group, 120 feet high 60 feet wide.
Moving as a single unit indicates the pressure was distributed evenly across the entire group, to move them out, all at one time.
100 Tons of steel ejected in an instant at speeds near 55 MPH.

This happens in all directions, all the way to the ground, in 10 seconds.

0 to 54 MPH in 0.09 sec. requires an explosive force.

The roof damage to the Winter Gardens is 600 feet from the base of the tower.

The 4-Ton steel Outer Wall Units from the Sky Lobby level had 8 seconds to travel the 600 ft. These 4-Ton Units exited the North Tower at near 55 MPH.

Some force was strong enough to accelerate hundreds of 4-ton steel Outer Wall Units from 0 to over 50 MPH in 0.09 sec. and eject the material over 500 ft. out over Lower Manhattan.

This brief force was present, pushing in all directions, for an average time period of- Approximately 0.09 sec. on each floor. Every floor. 110 floors.

www.csi911.info...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4b786c05ff6c.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 3/19/10 by SPreston]

Originally posted by SPreston

It takes explosive forces to eject 4 ton and heavier steel pieces sideways at 55 mph

[...]

Bolted together in groups 3 and 4 units high, 5 to 7 units wide, 4-Tons each, 25 units in a group, 120 feet high 60 feet wide.
Moving as a single unit indicates the pressure was distributed evenly across the entire group, to move them out, all at one time.
100 Tons of steel ejected in an instant at speeds near 55 MPH.

This happens in all directions, all the way to the ground, in 10 seconds.

0 to 54 MPH in 0.09 sec. requires an explosive force.

As I asked ANOK in my post here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Why would any "perps" use FAR more explosives than needed to collpase the towers?

Was it their intention to CAUSE damage to the surrounding buildings by planting much more explosives than needed to just effect a collapse? Were the "perps" demolition "experts" incompetent and didn't know how to calculate how much explosives were required?

So far, Anok has not addressed this important, unanswered question. So, SPreston, let's see your energy calculations of the amount of explosives needed to HURL building parts so far away compared to what would simply be needed to push the outer walls away.

reply to post by jthomas


You want us to psychologically evaluate the intentions of the 9-11 perps and determine why they did what they did?

Shouldn't that be the role of the New 9-11 Investigation and a Federal Grand Jury?

Isn't our role to obtain a new investigation by uncovering unexplainable evidence and impossible situations contained within the 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY?

reply to post by impressme


The government DID investigate whether or not there were bombs or additional explosives used at ground zero. It was done by the FBI. Using FOIA you should write them a letter to request the findings. This is from the FBI site

Our ensuing investigation of the attacks of 9/11/01—code-named “PENTTBOM”—was our largest investigation ever. At the peak of the case, more than half our agents worked to identify the hijackers and their sponsors and, with other agencies, to head off any possible future attacks. We followed more than half-a-million investigative leads, including several hundred thousand tips from the public. The attack and crash sites also represented the largest crime scenes in FBI history.

Crime scenes. I have also read on here that it was NOT a crime scene. It was. That is why data was confiscated not to suppress findings but to acquire more evidence.

Also, the FBI as never 'taken' off the 9/11 case in the beginning as has also been reported but were splintered into groups so that more time could be used to prevent future attacks that may have been imminent.

reply to post by SPreston


Can you please explain how the towers would fall 3 times as fast?

Originally posted by SPreston
reply to post by jthomas

 

You want us to psychologically evaluate the intentions of the 9-11 perps and determine why they did what they did?

Shouldn't that be the role of the New 9-11 Investigation and a Federal Grand Jury?

Isn't our role to obtain a new investigation by uncovering unexplainable evidence and impossible situations contained within the 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY?

You do not have to do that as the The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States did a good job at that as well as the FBI that gave us this evidence of the hijackers....

Investigators find a remarkable number of possessions left behind by the hijackers:
Two of Mohamed Atta’s bags are found on 9/11. They contain a handheld electronic flight computer, a simulator procedures manual for Boeing 757 and 767 aircraft, two videotapes relating to “air tours” of the Boeing 757 and 747 aircraft, a slide-rule flight calculator, a copy of the Koran, Atta’s passport, his will, his international driver’s license, a religious cassette tape, airline uniforms, a letter of recommendation, “education related documentation” and a note (see September 28, 2001) to other hijackers on how to mentally prepare for the hijacking. [SYDNEY MORNING HERALD, 9/15/2001; BOSTON GLOBE, 9/18/2001; INDEPENDENT, 9/29/2001; ASSOCIATED PRESS, 10/5/2001]
Marwan Alshehhi’s rental car is discovered at Boston’s Logan Airport containing an Arabic language flight manual, a pass giving access to restricted areas at the airport, documents containing a name on the passenger list of one of the flights, and the names of other suspects. The name of the flight school where Atta and Alshehhi studied, Huffman Aviation, is also found in the car. [LOS ANGELES TIMES, 9/13/2001]
A car registered to Nawaf Alhazmi is found at Washington’s Dulles Airport on September 12. This is the same car he bought in San Diego in early 2000 (see March 25, 2000). Inside is a copy of Atta’s letter to the other hijackers, a cashier’s check made out to a flight school in Phoenix, four drawings of the cockpit of a 757 jet, a box cutter-type knife, maps of Washington and New York, and a page with notes and phone numbers. [ARIZONA DAILY STAR, 9/28/2001; COX NEWS SERVICE, 10/21/2001; DIE ZEIT (HAMBURG), 10/1/2002] The name and phone number of Osama Awadallah, a friend of Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar in San Diego, is also found on a scrap of paper in the car. [CNN, 2/1/2002]
A rental car is found in an airport parking lot in Portland, Maine. Investigators are able to collect fingerprints and hair samples for DNA analysis. [PORTLAND PRESS HERALD, 10/14/2001]
A Boston hotel room contains airplane and train schedules. [SYDNEY MORNING HERALD, 9/15/2001]
FBI agents carry out numerous garbage bags of evidence from a Florida apartment where Saeed Alghamdi lived. [CNN, 9/17/2001]
Two days before 9/11, a hotel owner in Deerfield Beach, Florida, finds a box cutter left in a hotel room used by Marwan Alshehhi and two unidentified men. The owner checks the nearby trash and finds a duffel bag containing Boeing 757 manuals, three illustrated martial arts books, an 8-inch stack of East Coast flight maps, a three-ring binder full of handwritten notes, an English-German dictionary, an airplane fuel tester, and a protractor. The FBI seizes all the items when they are notified on September 12 (except the binder of notes, which the owner apparently threw away). [MIAMI HERALD, 9/16/2001; ASSOCIATED PRESS, 9/16/2001]
In an apartment rented by Ziad Jarrah and Ahmed Alhaznawi, the FBI finds a notebook, videotape, and photocopies of their passports. [MIAMI HERALD, 9/15/2001]
In a bar the night before 9/11, after making predictions of a attack on America the next day, the hijackers leave a business card and a copy of the Koran at the bar. The FBI also recovers the credit card receipts from when they paid for their drinks and lap dances. [ASSOCIATED PRESS, 9/14/2001]
A September 13 security sweep of Boston airport’s parking garage uncovers items left behind by the hijackers: a box cutter, a pamphlet written in Arabic, and a credit card. [WASHINGTON POST, 9/16/2001]
A few hours after the attacks, suicide notes that some of the hijackers wrote to their parents are found in New York. Credit card receipts showing that some of the hijackers paid for flight training in the US are also found. [LOS ANGELES TIMES, 9/13/2001]
A FedEx bill is found in a trash can at the Comfort Inn in Portland, Maine, where Atta stayed the night before 9/11. The bill leads to Dubai, United Arab Emirates, allowing investigators to determine much of the funding for 9/11. [NEWSWEEK, 11/11/2001; LONDON TIMES, 12/1/2001]
A bag hijackers Alhazmi and Almihdhar left at a mosque in Laurel, Maryland, is found on September 12. The bag contains flight logs and even receipts from flight schools from San Diego the year before (see September 9, 2001).
The hijackers past whereabouts can even be tracked by their pizza purchases. An expert points out: “Most people pay cash for pizza. These [hijackers] paid with a credit card. That was an odd thing.” [SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE, 9/3/2002] “In the end, they left a curiously obvious trail—from martial arts manuals, maps, a Koran, Internet and credit card fingerprints. Maybe they were sloppy, maybe they did not care, maybe it was a gesture of contempt of a culture they considered weak and corrupt.” [MIAMI HERALD, 9/22/2001] Note The New Yorker’s quote of a former high-level intelligence official: “Whatever trail was left was left deliberately—for the FBI to chase” (see Late September 2001

What else is there to find? It is always your right to question anything that anyone,especially government, tries to give you but it is not your right to create your own, as you call it, psuedo science to use word trickery and innuendo to fool the weak minded that cannot think or research for themselves. That is what is done when someone posts a video and says something 'sounds' like an explosive. i posted a video from the North Tower that DOES NOT have ANY sounds that are similar to ANY CD that I can find.

[edit on 19-3-2010 by esdad71]

[edit on 19-3-2010 by esdad71]

Originally posted by jthomas

. . . . . . . your energy calculations of the amount of explosives needed to HURL building parts so far away compared to what would simply be needed to push the outer walls away.

Well golly gee jthomas, it was one of YOUR favorite 'experts' Thomas Eagar who determined the towers fell so fast, there was insufficient time for portions of the towers to attain significant lateral velocity. But hundreds of portions (id est: 4 ton outer wall sections) did attain sufficient lateral velocity to land up to 600 feet away in all directions, and pierce other buildings, didn't they jthomas?

How do you think Thomas Eagar overlooked those hundreds of ejected 4 ton outer wall sections scattered about jthomas? Do you think he conducted his entire investigation from his office in Cambridge, Massachusetts? Perhaps Thomas Eagar has never been to New York jthomas. Maybe he called you for your 'expert' opinion.

Lateral velocity: the component of an objects's velocity in a sideways direction

Lateral Velocity
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f5b62bca8b49.jpg[/atsimg]

Lateral Velocity
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2106c2b2203a.jpg[/atsimg]

Thomas Eagar

Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity.

www.tms.org...

Here are a bunch of ejected 4 ton (and heavier) pieces to the south across Liberty St

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4fe08de3fbbb.jpg[/atsimg]

Original image

Here are more ejected 4 ton outer wall sections across West St

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/09e3416b7a12.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 3/19/10 by SPreston]

Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by SPreston

 

Can you please explain how the towers would fall 3 times as fast?

Have CalibratedZeus explain it to you.

He was reasoning that three times the weight above the impact zones in the South Tower was responsible for near freefall collapse times and the failures of the much stronger lower levels.

He must have majored under Professor Thomas Eagar.

Maybe actual physics and the Path of Greatest Resistance was not included in the curriculum?

Perhaps CalibratedZeus and Thomas Eagar forgot that the South Tower collapse time was only 10 seconds and not over 120 seconds.

reply to post by SPreston

Using your reasoning, the South Tower should have hit the ground three times faster than the North Tower, with over three times the weight above the impact zone.

I asked you to explain it since you put it in this thread. If you make a statement you should be prepared to back it up or else you are simply posting for effect and not content or substance. You took someone else's post and tried to make it help you and you cannot even explain it?

Also, you may want to look at the 'updated' report that you had posted.

www.tms.org...

Seems some of you have a hard time referring to the finals and instead the first drafts of many documents including FEMA and NIST.

However, what he is saying is true as well as NIST's final report. Portions of the towers, mainly the pieces that fell 'from' the towers during collpase, did attain free fall speeds and therefore hit the ground before the rest of the building. That alone shows that the core did not fall at free fall speeds with such resistance.


[edit on 19-3-2010 by esdad71]

reply to post by SPreston


I saw this:

Using your reasoning, the South Tower should have hit the ground three times faster than the North Tower, with over three times the weight above the impact zone.

...and thought for a minute, "Surely SPreston realizes that isn't the way physics, and acceleration due to gravity actually work? He's smarter than that."

Then I realized you were very subtlely insulting the previous poster's comments, by given them a little spin, and attempting to mock. At least, that is what it apperas, to me.

I, on the other hand, understood perfectly the logic employed in that other post. As anybody with even basic physics knowledge knows, mass ('weight' in a gravitational field) does not affect the rate of acceleration. But, of course, the greater the mass of the object, the greater the force it will exert as it falls, when it encounters obstacles in its path...this is described in equations that deal with both 'potential' energy, and 'kinetic' energy states.

Further, the simple fact that the building that collapsed first was damaged at a lower level below the top, resulting in a greater mass above the weakened sections. This is quite evident, and perfectly logical.

Alsways fun to dust off the old textbooks, and give 'em a good look, to set things right again, eh?





[edit on 19 March 2010 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by SPreston

 

That alone shows that the core did not fall at free fall speeds with such resistance.

What in the world are you talking about?

Nobody states that the core fell at freefall speeds. We already know that part of the core was still standing long after the North Tower 110th floor roofline hit the ground.

The 93 floors below the impact collapsed through the Path of Greatest Resistance (some of you use the term pancaking) crushing each floor in turn and pulverizing its contents into fine powder. It should have taken minutes, not 10 and 11 seconds.

The rooftop antenna moving down first proves the core structure was sheared by explosives or incendiaries of some nature. If the core was sheared, then the remainder of the structure was also sheared with explosives or incendiaries, removing the Path of Greatest Resistance, and allowing a near freefall collapse at 10 and 11 seconds

That is exactly what they do with controlled demolition; remove the Path of Greatest Resistance.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3d2965a2410f.jpg[/atsimg]