Gender-Bender Chemicals are Turning Boys Into Girls

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by sos37

 

Hows this for inferior:
- Men and women rarely mix in sports of a competitive nature. Why?

Great question. And not an easy one to answer. But here's a great paper which attempts to do so:

www.eass2007.eu...

- In sports that they are separated, men overwhelmingly have to work harder and achieve better results in comparison to women taking part in the same sport. Why is this so?

Also answered the above referenced-paper.

www.eass2007.eu...

This one is a little easier to answer than the last question. It boils down to the perception that women aren't as strong as men because of their physical differences and therefore the threshhold for achievement is lowered, depending on the sport. The "bar" you speak of will be set by each sport individually.

- Men and women are separated in places like lavatories, asylums, jails. Why the need for this separation?

Come on - really? There's a number of reasons including sanitation and privacy. But mainly it's a safety issue for the women, first and foremost. Men and women serve together in the U.S. military and how many reported sexual assaults are there and reports of sexual harassment? How many un-reported do you think happen?

- Men can be accused of sexual assault for touching a women's arm, but women can touch and fondle men and expect no consequences. Why is this so?

It's a proven fact that men and boys think about sex far more often each day than women do. Historically speaking, women aren't the aggressors when it comes to sexual harassment. Not saying it doesn't happen, because we all know that females are capable of sexual harassment. But
guys are just expected to give in when it comes to sexual advances from a woman. And when the guy says no? The majority of the time they won't report the woman who sexually harassed him for fear of being embarassed by his male friends and colleagues.

- When men physically assault women it is called domestic violence. When women physically assault men it is called self-defence. Why?

I don't think you could lump all of those together. They would need to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

[edit on 18/3/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by antonia


Generally, logic is a masculine trait and compassion is feminine. Men can be compassionate, and women can be logical, but on the whole this is how it stands. I've seen very grounded women who still root their decisions from a sense of community rather than being objective, and guys who are very emotional yet still root their decisions from situational reasoning.

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We evolved for hundreds of thousands of years with the male being the dominant, aggressive one, and females being the submissive & passive. To think that after just a few generations we can switch out roles as we please is just absurd. For those who may actually think that this isn't a big deal, get real. Our endocrine is being screwed up, testosterone and sperm counts dwindling, and intelligence is dropping as the quality of sperm is correlated to IQ levels. Welcome to Idiocracy, minus the desire for Starbucks specials...

I hadn't heard of this before so I'm pleased (& horrified also!) to be informed. I have to say that I'd want to know more about the raw data & sample size before I'd accept any conclusions about behavioural traits being affected, not just the sampling methodology. Its such a complex area. Physical characteristics are much simpler to spot tho, so if there is any correlation between environmental contamination & such conditions as micro-penis, I'd say thats evidence that ought to be investigated urgently.
The thing is that its well known that many of the chemicals mentioned in the OP are not just carcinogenic but immediately toxic also & in very tiny amounts. We really ought to be finding ways to break them down or bind them into something non-toxic, regardless of what else they may be doing to us.
Tell you what struck me as ironic... Man Size Tissues... since bleaching paper for such products is a major use of dioxins!

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by antonia

 

Generally, logic is a masculine trait and compassion is feminine. Men can be compassionate, and women can be logical, but on the whole this is how it stands. I've seen very grounded women who still root their decisions from a sense of community rather than being objective, and guys who are very emotional yet still root their decisions from situational reasoning.

----------------------------------

These are you observations, they are not scientific facts. Are women a specific way because they have been conditioned to be that way or is it something genetic?

We evolved for hundreds of thousands of years with the male being the dominant, aggressive one, and females being the submissive & passive. To think that after just a few generations we can switch out roles as we please is just absurd. For those who may actually think that this isn't a big deal, get real. Our endocrine is being screwed up, testosterone and sperm counts dwindling, and intelligence is dropping as the quality of sperm is correlated to IQ levels. Welcome to Idiocracy, minus the desire for Starbucks specials...

If you can evolve one way then you can certainly evolve into another. Change is scary for people but, it is what it is. I didn't say it wasn't some issue worthy of study, I said it needs more study. IQ levels are not correlated to the quality of sperm. Evidence shows IQ is malleable and can be raised over time. How in the heck could it be solely the product of decent sperm? As I pointed out, there are other factors at play.

[edit on 18-3-2010 by antonia]

reply to post by antonia Good points. I'd like to know what "quality sperm" even means. In this context, the only definition that makes any sense to me is "not genetically damaged", but we know that all sorts of things are mutagens & that people can be born with various types of genetic diseases & still have a high IQ.

Originally posted by antonia

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by antonia

 

Generally, logic is a masculine trait and compassion is feminine. Men can be compassionate, and women can be logical, but on the whole this is how it stands. I've seen very grounded women who still root their decisions from a sense of community rather than being objective, and guys who are very emotional yet still root their decisions from situational reasoning.

----------------------------------

These are you observations, they are not scientific facts. Are women a specific way because they have been conditioned to be that way or is it something genetic?

Well of course we're conditioned from birth, but I think something much more powerful is in play. Instinct. Woman has played the role as bearer of child since the beginning, man has played the role of providing food and protecting. Each role requires different intuitions, instincts, and skill sets. This has been hard-wired into us through genetics.

We evolved for hundreds of thousands of years with the male being the dominant, aggressive one, and females being the submissive & passive. To think that after just a few generations we can switch out roles as we please is just absurd. For those who may actually think that this isn't a big deal, get real. Our endocrine is being screwed up, testosterone and sperm counts dwindling, and intelligence is dropping as the quality of sperm is correlated to IQ levels. Welcome to Idiocracy, minus the desire for Starbucks specials...

If you can evolve one way then you can certainly evolve into another. Change is scary for people but, it is what it is. I didn't say it wasn't some issue worthy of study, I said it needs more study. IQ levels are not correlated to the quality of sperm. Evidence shows IQ is malleable and can be raised over time. How in the heck could it be solely the product of decent sperm? As I pointed out, there are other factors at play.

[edit on 18-3-2010 by antonia]

Change is the only constant. It's not the fact that change occurs which provides a concern. My concern is the fact that sperm counts have been more than halved in the last half century, and are continuing to drop. My concern is that semen quality is correlated with intelligence

"Scientists know that intelligence is correlated with many other characteristics, but the reason is a puzzle," Arden told Discovery News. "We chose a trait -- sperm quality -- that seems to be quite unrelated to intelligence to test our general idea." She and her colleagues analyzed data gathered on thousands of U.S. Army veterans enrolled in the Vietnam Experience Study conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control in 1985. Out of 4,462 study participants, 425 provided semen samples that were scientifically evaluated at the time. The men also took five I.Q.-measuring tests. Arden's team used computer analysis to study that data, along with the semen determinations. The researchers found that a man's intelligence positively correlated with three key indicators of his semen quality: sperm concentration, sperm count and sperm motility.

[edit on 19-3-2010 by unityemissions]

Originally posted by sos37
Great question. And not an easy one to answer. But here's a great paper which attempts to do so:

www.eass2007.eu...

Interesting stuff. But the simple answer is because men would dominate women in almost every sport. The structure of the male body is generally better suited to provide more stamina and energy to the body and a bigger heart allows for more blood (more oxygen) to circulate around the body.

This one is a little easier to answer than the last question. It boils down to the perception that women aren't as strong as men because of their physical differences and therefore the threshhold for achievement is lowered, depending on the sport. The "bar" you speak of will be set by each sport individually.

You danced very well around that question, good work. It is not perception but cold hard fact that most women cannot compete at the same level as men because men are generally more superior in their athletic abilities. (But this comes down to how the male body is structured, not simply because they have testicles.) This is evidenced by looking at the best athletes from around the world and all the records held in the vast majority of sports.

Come on - really? There's a number of reasons including sanitation and privacy. But mainly it's a safety issue for the women, first and foremost. Men and women serve together in the U.S. military and how many reported sexual assaults are there and reports of sexual harassment? How many un-reported do you think happen?

Again you are dancing around the question and not looking at the more obvious, plausible answer. Men are usually physically stronger and more aggressive which makes women vulnerable. Men and women are separated not because of "sanitation and privacy" but because women are vulnerable.

It's a proven fact that men and boys think about sex far more often each day than women do. Historically speaking, women aren't the aggressors when it comes to sexual harassment. Not saying it doesn't happen, because we all know that females are capable of sexual harassment

Can't disagree with you there, it is one of the simple truths that are right there if you are willing to look - men generally think more about sex than women. In terms of sexual harassment, that definition has changed considerably over the last few decades. We have reached a point where women can virtually grope a male (I have seen this happen first hand) and not suffer any consequences, but if males touch the back or arms of a women they can be charged with sexual harassment.

But guys are just expected to give in when it comes to sexual advances from a woman. And when the guy says no? The majority of the time they won't report the woman who sexually harassed him for fear of being embarassed by his male friends and colleagues.

I agree. Would you agree that the media plays a role in this at all? I mean when you see male teachers having sex with minors they are assumed to be sexual predators that need to be locked up for the safety of society. When female teachers have sex with under-age males they are given leniency in the vast majority of cases. So when you are a male that sees females getting away with behaviour that you know males would be charged with, it makes you feel less confident that your objections will be taken seriously.

I don't think you could lump all of those together. They would need to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

I admit that I was being broad in my generalisation. You are right that it is situational. But it does seem that women are given the benefit of the doubt in situations involving violence, whereas men are usually not. Then there is the case of emotional abuse which is often overlooked in cases of domestic violence. Why is this factor overlooked? Surely emotional abuse can be as bad, sometimes even worse, and have longer lasting effects than spur-of-the-moment physical abuse?

[edit on 19/3/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by sos37
I don't see a problem here. Men make up the vast majority of violent crimes and acts in this world. Men always think with their penises first and their minds last unless they have somehow untied their emotions from their bodies. Men are the reason for all the world's man-made (no pun intended) destruction thus far. Men are more prone to corruption and far more likely to walk out on their committments.

This world would be far safer, more empathetic and more technologically advancedwith sayl 10% men and 90% women, though I can't say what a world of 90% women would do for entertainment. Women are creative, though. They would adapt.

WOW! I am seeing more and more of these comments, with each passing month. It's starting to get VERY scary. Do you really believe this?! Do you realize where your views are headed? Extermination of the males, that's where. I'm sure you could care less though, you stupid fool.

Yes, we could exterminate the males right now, if we wanted to. Artificial sperm is a reality. Men, the end has come. It's only a matter of time.

[edit on 19-3-2010 by sliceNodice]

reply to post by unityemissions

The men also took five I.Q.-measuring tests. Arden's team used computer analysis to study that data, along with the semen determinations. The researchers found that a man's intelligence positively correlated with three key indicators of his semen quality: sperm concentration, sperm count and sperm motility.

Are you suggesting that it is these various qualities of a mans sperm that affect his IQ? Would it not seem more likely that the more intelligent the man, the better he looks after himself & thus is in better overall condition?

Well of course we're conditioned from birth, but I think something much more powerful is in play. Instinct. Woman has played the role as bearer of child since the beginning, man has played the role of providing food and protecting. Each role requires different intuitions, instincts, and skill sets. This has been hard-wired into us through genetics.

Again, these are your observations. Science has proven nothing either way. Before we start forcing people to adapt to gender roles we better know if those roles are purely social in nature or happen to be the result of genetic influence. If they are the result of genetic influence it does not explain why there are logical women and emotional men. Natures intends nothing.

Change is the only constant. It's not the fact that change occurs which provides a concern. My concern is the fact that sperm counts have been more than halved in the last half century, and are continuing to drop. My concern is that semen quality is correlated with intelligence

"Scientists know that intelligence is correlated with many other characteristics, but the reason is a puzzle," Arden told Discovery News. "We chose a trait -- sperm quality -- that seems to be quite unrelated to intelligence to test our general idea." She and her colleagues analyzed data gathered on thousands of U.S. Army veterans enrolled in the Vietnam Experience Study conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control in 1985. Out of 4,462 study participants, 425 provided semen samples that were scientifically evaluated at the time. The men also took five I.Q.-measuring tests. Arden's team used computer analysis to study that data, along with the semen determinations. [B]The researchers found that a man's intelligence positively correlated with three key indicators of his semen quality: sperm concentration, sperm count and sperm motility.[/B]

[edit on 19-3-2010 by unityemissions]

This study does not say sperm is a contributor to high IQ. This says a more intelligent man is likely to have better sperm. There are many reasons for this. A more intelligent person would know how to better care for themselves. There are a number of things that lower the number and quality of sperm including bad diet, stress, smoking, alcohol and drug abuse, wearing tight and synthetic fibers, putting cell phones near the penis, being overweight etc.

Originally posted by Edrick
reply to post by Mercuryae

 

And you are a Misogynist , Edrick

Cite examples of your claim.

You are putting Men on some sort of God-pedestal, the superior sex

Again, Cite examples of your claim, or stop claiming what is not true.

-Edrick

Mate, that previous post was, frankly, inspired and must have taken a lot of work to put together. Some people don't like having facts shoved in their faces because they destroy their arguments, so they'll call you names.

Keep on rolling man.

reply to post by Sargon of Akkad

Mate, that previous post was, frankly, inspired and must have taken a lot of work to put together. Some people don't like having facts shoved in their faces because they destroy their arguments, so they'll call you names.

Keep on rolling man.

Well, thank you very much.

I have actually been arguing this point for quite some time on other threads and other boards.... Although the information gathering process was somewhat intensive... involving searching through government statistics websites.

And you could IMAGINE how tedious THAT is....



-Edrick

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by antonia

 

Generally, logic is a masculine trait and compassion is feminine. ...I've seen very grounded women who still root their decisions from a sense of community rather than being objective, and guys who are very emotional yet still root their decisions from situational reasoning.

Erm. The concept "community" is situational, is it not?

FYI - the most illogical beings I have ever encountered are so-called "masculine" males. Testosterone has little to do with brain function, imo, and more to do with other capacities.

We evolved for hundreds of thousands of years with the male being the dominant, aggressive one, and females being the submissive & passive.

Why don't you come on over and check out my library?

...The evidence suggests that people were people until the rise of the priest class and the advent of institutionalized religion as an economic power base.

That's when the male/dominant, female/passive roles were established and good sense disappeared. ...Despite what "historical documents" may claim. Haven't you learned anything about marketing and communication campaigns on ATS?

Our endocrine is being screwed up, testosterone and sperm counts dwindling,

True.

and intelligence is dropping as the quality of sperm is correlated to IQ levels.

WHA?!?

Sources?

Moreover, I have a ZERO sperm count, and I'll take you on any day.


I LOVE YOU. I REALLY DO. BUT WE NEED TO TALK, MY FRIEND! SOON!

;D

reply to post by soficrow


I deduce from your "Zero sperm count" that you are female.

I am not involved in the discussion, but if I may give his/her answer in advance.

The study.

Published in the journal "Intelligence, Volume 37, Issue 3, May-June 2009, Pages 277-282".

Titled "Intelligence and semen quality are positively correlated".

Abstract of study on ScienceDirect by Elsevier.

Fulltext pdf can be found here

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
reply to post by unityemissions

 

The men also took five I.Q.-measuring tests. Arden's team used computer analysis to study that data, along with the semen determinations. The researchers found that a man's intelligence positively correlated with three key indicators of his semen quality: sperm concentration, sperm count and sperm motility.

Are you suggesting that it is these various qualities of a mans sperm that affect his IQ? Would it not seem more likely that the more intelligent the man, the better he looks after himself & thus is in better overall condition?

I'm showing that these three qualities are scientifically linked to the intelligence of men. I have not said this is the only factor which decides intelligence, and I know it's not. I'm suggesting that this evidence alone is cause for alarm, and should be further looked into ASAP.

You could be correct that more intelligent people look after their selves better, but I see no reason for this to be the case in our modern world. People of average intelligence can take care of their selves just fine. I've seen plenty of brilliant people who purposefully pile mounds of obstacles around their selves just to challenge their selves. One of these obstacles can be physical exhaustion and neglect.

[edit on 20-3-2010 by unityemissions]

reply to post by unityemissions Well, I agree that some intelligent people make their lives more difficult. In fact, there have been suggestions that the more intelligent a person is, the less able to communicate with the average they are, which could be a cause of some psychological disorders.
All the same, bringing up a correlation between sperm quality & intelligence doesn't seem to make much sense, in the context of this thread, unless you are saying that a mans declining sperm quality as a result of gradual environmental poisoning will also make him more stupid. To me, that would seem to have the likely mechanism the wrong way round.
Can you clarify whether you do believe that the nutsack output affects IQ or not, please?

reply to post by Bunken Drum


Apparently, I've come off as sexist. That wasn't the intent. I can't believe this is taking so much effort to get through. I will try one more time. If it doesn't stick...oh well.

First off. There ARE differences between guys and girls. Let's cut the politically correct nonsense, shall we? Men have penises, women have vaginas. Okay, now to the less obvious, we have different biochemical makeups. Different hormones which cause different perceptions of the world. We're all one species, but we are made separate, yet equal. I'm not sexist. Both men and women have their roles to play. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not saying that you need a lot of sperm or testosterone to be an intelligent adult. I'm saying that when our genetic makeup requires a certain amount of a chemical substance to function efficiently, and this requirement isn't met due to synthetic chemicals giving false signals (or however else they screw us up), we're obviously not going to perform as designed.

These chemicals are screwing us up while we're still a growing fetus. They screw us up being in the syringes we're poked with, the formula or breast milk we drink, the foods we consume, etc, etc...I haven't a clue at which point it's effecting our intelligence levels. Common sense tells me all of them. Perhaps the most destruction is occurring while we're still developing either in the womb or in our first few years outside. I'm not a scientist, nor do I claim to be a professional. I'm merely an individual with a keyboard in hands, on the internet, attempting to make connections between a few points of fact, while using common sense to fill in the gaps.

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by Bunken Drum

 

First off. There ARE differences between guys and girls. Let's cut the politically correct nonsense, shall we? Men have penises, women have vaginas. Okay, now to the less obvious, we have different biochemical makeups. Different hormones which cause different perceptions of the world. We're all one species, but we are made separate, yet equal. I'm not sexist. Both men and women have their roles to play.

Again, where is your proof? There is not a lot of evidence to support the idea that having a large amount of estrogen or testosterone alters world view. There are men who run more estrogen than some women. You have estrogen in you, otherwise you could not survive in the wild. There is not a pure estrogen/testosterone being.

I'm not saying that you need a lot of sperm or testosterone to be an intelligent adult. I'm saying that when our genetic makeup requires a certain amount of a chemical substance to function efficiently, and this requirement isn't met due to synthetic chemicals giving false signals (or however else they screw us up), we're obviously not going to perform as designed.

And what makes you think we were designed for anything?

Everyone's genetic makeup is different, therefore everyone is going to run a bit different. That's why i said you better be damn sure of what you are saying before you start proclaiming people need to adopt gender roles. Now, I can actually prove women are becoming more masculine. If it was true these chemicals cause one to be more feminine then we should see more feminine looking women right?

www.telegraph.co.uk...
www.diet-blog.com...

The classic 0.7 Hip-Waist ratio that "defines" (I don't like this concept because it's derogatory to women who do not meet 0.7 WHR) the female body is not prevalent in this day and age, more masculine body types are (at least in Britain). This doesn't jive with a feminized society. The women should be hyperfeminie and they are not.

And here's something funny a lot of you guys probably don't know. Estrogen is important for the maturation of sperm and is most likely necessary for healthy libido. That means these plastics should be making your sperm better and making you more horny...whooops.

en.wikipedia.org...

What we are really discussing is Xenoestrogens. It's a bit of a misnomer to call it feminization. What you will see is more "intersex" beings. These chemicals also interrupt female reproductive functions.

en.wikipedia.org...


Pollution is a real problem but, let's get real about what's actually happen and stop trying to proclaim there is some grand conspiracy to wipe men off the face of the planet. As human reproduction cannot continue without males and female , the idea is just silly. There is a reason people in the west are seeing fertility drop. It's not just men this phenomenon is occurring in.







[edit on 20-3-2010 by antonia]

[edit on 20-3-2010 by antonia]

reply to post by antonia


First I wrote a fairly harsh post, but I'm backing off. I'm just going to say that if you need proof outside of nature and common sense to realize that men and women have gender roles to play out, then you'll probably never find it. The proof is all around.

I'm simply not going to spend my time writing back and forth over a trivial non-issue like this. It IS this way. You can deny it all you want, but that's your problem. Not mine.

You keep bringing up points that are irrelevant for reasons which are entirely unknown to me. Why did you bring up depopulation? Why are you talking about women becoming more masculine? Duh. Guys are becoming more like girls. Girls are becoming more like guys. Anyone with half a brain should be noticing this happening as the years roll on. I'm only 27, but have clearly witnessed this first hand progressing over the last decade. The elite openly talk about depopulation. I have no doubt that various means are currently being deployed as soft kill. Is everything a conspiracy? No. Is having toxic chemicals in our water supply? I think so. Is having genetically modified foods? Yes, I think so. What about xenoestrogens all around us? Maybe so, maybe not. I haven't a clue, tbh.

Go nitpick on someone else. I'm not responding anymore. I can't stand speaking to people who haven't an iota of common sense. Sorry, I'm being honest.

[edit on 20-3-2010 by unityemissions]

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by antonia

 

I'm just going to say that if you need proof outside of nature and common sense to realize that men and women have gender roles to play out, then you'll probably never find it. The proof is all around.

Gender roles in humans are not cut and dry. Biological functions are but, this does not dictate human behavior in totality.

You keep bringing up points that are irrelevant for reasons which are entirely unknown to me.

If you didn't do the research that isn't my problem. the points are relevant because it proves men are not being turned into females. It proves the chemicals are turning beings into something that is neither male OR female.

Why did you bring up depopulation? Why are you talking about women becoming more masculine? Duh. Guys are becoming more like girls. Girls are becoming more like guys.

This proves the original premise of the OP to be false. This was my intent from the beginning. It also proves your premise false.

Go nitpick on someone else. I'm not responding anymore. I can't stand speaking to people who haven't an iota of common sense. Sorry, I'm being honest.

Honest? Well, I'm pretty sure you can figure out I honestly think you are just bad at debate.