evolution beats creationism 10 to 3 and thats generous

cont..

Therefore in this sense it’s correct also to say that “bats” are flying creatures and can be considered as fowls (‘ohph) unless you disagree.
(strongsnumbers.com... also Palestine Exploration Quarterly 1955 p5)
Here are also two Hebrew words that are commonly misunderstood / mistranslated (there’s more):
• Nephesh - comes from the root word “breath” – literally means “a breather” but is commonly known as “soul” – as in “immortal soul” (no such thing). Nephesh simply means a living creature/being – a living soul (Gen 2:7, Ezek 18:4,1Pet 3:20 KJV).
• Sheol – common grave of mankind, gravedom or literally the pit –but was mistranslated as “hell” – a fiery place of torment according to traditional religions (no such thing). Job14:13, Acts 2:25-27
So just because our current knowledge of things does not agree with the Bible or vice versa does not necessarily mean that the Bible is inaccurate. Like what Ashanu said a while back – “you need to have an open mind” to gain not just understanding but accurate understanding.
*btw: English is my 3rd language as I was originally born in Asia. We also use a different word to generalized flying creatures as opposed to birds, bats, insects…
Also in your statement you also said:

…Eagles carry their young on their backs, were the bible frequently mentions that the Earth does not move and is flat, while the Sun revolves around the Earth.

Again do I detect more belittling of the scriptures or maybe just ignorance of its contents?
Please let me know if you need me to clarify this for you and please tell me the verses you are referring to and the Bible version you are using (very important).
Back to the Forum topic:
You said

...As we have witnessed evolution occur within our lifetime, to willingly choose blindness indicates an unhealthy obsession with faith over common sense.

“evolution occur within our lifetime” – this is very interesting, can you provide proof?
(I hope you are not referring to the commonly overused “virus” mutation as proof of evolution)
Hope to hear from you soon…

reply to post by ashanu90


Rather than evolution vs. creationism, I do not see why they cannot bother be true. The Universe, and many creatures, have evolved. Yet, we humans have been created. There is significant evidence to point to our genetic modification by the Annunaki (see Lloyd Pie and Sitchin).

reply to post by edmc^2


Ok I'll play. You state that the Bible is 100% accurate when it comes to Science. The Bible is a book written by men and we all know that men have faults. Here are a few places where they got it wrong . . . KJV ASV Passage reference numbers included so you can read along:

The bible says that hares and coneys are unclean because they "chew the cud" but do not part the hoof. But hares and coneys are not ruminants and they do not "chew the cud." 11:5-6

God has "the strength of a unicorn." 23:22, 24:8
There are other places where they talk about dragons and unicorns as well.

"And the unicorns shall come down with them." 34:7

Dragons and satyrs may not seem real to you, but they did to the author of these verses. 34:13-14

"I will send serpents, cockatrices among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you." A cockatrice is a serpent, hatched from a cock's egg, that can kill with a glance. They are rare nowadays. 8:17

"Out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent." What ever happened to these fascinating biblical creatures? 14:29

Bad people hatch poisonous cockatrice eggs. Whoever eats the eggs will die, and when the eggs are crushed a viper hatches out of them. 59:5

Among the many strange creatures mentioned in the Bible that no longer seem to exist is the "fiery flying serpent." 30:6

Can Eagles carry their young on their wings? The Bible thinks so: 32:11 "As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings"

What about the Sun and the earth. Which one moves and which one is set solid on pillars with a fixed foundation?
"As the sun ... goeth forth in his might." The sun, according to the bible, goes around the earth. 5:31

"The pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them. 2:8

"The earth ... shall be stable, that it be not moved." It doesn't spin on its axis or travel about the sun. 16:30

The earth rests upon pillars and doesn't move (unless God gets angry or something). 9:6

"Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not."
The earth is fixed and the sun travels about it. 9:7

The earth is set on foundations and it does not move. 38:4-6

The world also is established, that it cannot be moved." 93:1

"The world also shall be established that it shall not be moved." 96:10

"The sun also ariseth"
Although this verse is interpreted figuratively today, it was taken literally by virtually all Christians until the Copernican revolution, and was used by the Church to condemn Galileo for teaching the heliocentric heresy. 1:5

The dragon's tail smacks down to earth one third of the stars. To the author of Revelation, the stars are just little lights that can fall to the ground from the sky. Well Dragons are strong after all.

Daniel's tree is tall enough to be seen from "the end of all the earth." Only on a flat earth would this be possible. 4:10-11, 20

The devil takes Jesus to the top of a mountain and shows him "all the kingdoms of the world." I guess the world was flat in those days. 4:5

Wikipedia seems to agree with this Flat geocentric Earth model of the bible

The worldview of the Tanakh is still clearly that of a flat earth (e.g.Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 44:24) in a geocentric universe (e.g. Joshua 10:12-13, Ps. 93:1, 1 Chron. 16:30), along with Mesopotamian astronomy of the period.

Finally, my favorite way to cure Leprosy:

God's law for lepers: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 14:2-52

I am not saying that the BIble is a bad thing, but it is a book written by men who made mistakes simply because they did not know any better. I do not fault them for it. There is a great deal of good in the Bible, and that is what we should focus on, not the science.

As for current examples of evolution in our lifetimes. There are several examples, beyond viral ones, but one I like to point to, as it has significance for me, is Plasmodium falciparum. This is the parasite that causes Malaria. I travel to areas around the globe where Malaria is a problem and in certain regions the parasite has developed different resistances to different drug treatments. Depending on where I go, I have to take different medications, for the same parasite. The Parasite has evolved in response to environmental factors by way of genetic mutation and natural selection. If the parasite could not evolve, then it could not pass on any adaptations to environmental factors. What is even more interesting is that due to the historically long presence of malaria, and the high mortality rate, it has actually spurned Human evolution through genetic mutation and natural selection.

The presence of the parasite in human populations caused selection in the human genome in a multitude of ways, as humans have been forced to develop resistance to the disease.

This Human adaptation can be seen in the genetic code of certain ethnic groups.


[edit on 6/4/10 by Terapin]

reply to post by Terapin


..I wish I have more space...

Ok I'll play. You state that the Bible is 100% accurate when it comes to Science. The Bible is a book written by men and we all know that men have faults. Here are a few places where they got it wrong

Hopefully you don’t really find this as a game. To me it’s a matter of life and death since our future is involved.
Anyway, I'm not surprised by your statements as I've already suspected the source of the seeming Bible inaccuracies. Majority of these inaccuracies can be attributed to the Bible versions youre using -KJV. A favorite version used by Trinitarians, believers of fiery “hell” and the immortal soul. This is so because it supports their unscriptural doctrines. I'm sure once they read these statements they will start attacking, especially the Bible version that I'm using – the New World Translation (NWT). They hate this New World Translation as it reveals that a lot of their teachings are not in the Bible. As evidence of this fact I present to you the Bible texts that you've provided. Ask any KJV user about why it's there in the first place; they can't explain it unless they admit that it was a mistranslation.
As for the writers, true the Bible was written by imperfect men but it was “inspired” by Jehovah God (1 Tim 3:16, 17, 1 Pet 1:20, 21), thus insuring its true message to remain intact for thousands of years after so many translations throughout the ages (John 17:17). Any inaccuracies or errors found can be easily verified and corrected.

On to your points:

. . . KJV ASV Passage reference numbers included so you can read along:

The bible says that hares and coneys are unclean because they "chew the cud" but do not part the hoof. But hares and coneys are not ruminants and they do not "chew the cud." Lev 11:5-6

.

Here’s what I found in my research:
The Natural History of Mammals, 1964, p. 41): “The habit of ‘refection,’ or passing the food twice through the intestine instead of only once, seems to be a common phenomenon in the rabbits and hares. Domestic rabbits usually eat and swallow without chewing their night droppings, which form in the morning as much as half the total contents of the stomach. In the wild rabbit refection takes place twice daily, and the same habit is reported for the European hare. . . . It is believed that this habit provides the animals with large amounts of B vitamins produced by bacteria in the food within the large intestine.”

The work Mammals of the World has this to say on the same subject: “This may be similar to ‘chewing the cud’ in ruminant mammals. (by E. P. Walker, 1964, Vol. II, p. 647)

Point; in specific or some areas we can’t judge the accuracy of the Bible statement by the restricted, relatively recent conception of what constitutes a cud-chewing animal.

.God has "the strength of a unicorn." Num 23:22, 24:8
There are other places where they talk about dragons and unicorns as well. Isa 35:7 Dragons = Jackals

"And the unicorns shall come down with them." Isa 34:7 –

Dragons and satyrs may not seem real to you, but they did to the author of these verses. Isa 34:13-14

About the “unicorn”, The New Encyclopædia Britannica explains:
“Certain poetical passages of the Old Testament refer to a strong and splendid horned animal called re’em′. This word is translated ‘unicorn’ or ‘rhinoceros’ in many versions, but many modern translations prefer ‘wild ox’ (aurochs), which is the correct meaning of the Hebrew re’em′.”
So since in current English “ox” has the sense of a castrated male, the NWT of the Holy Scriptures consistently and correctly renders re’em′ “wild bull.”

Next:

"I will send serpents, cockatrices among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you." A cockatrice is a serpent, hatched from a cock's egg, that can kill with a glance. They are rare nowadays. Jer 8:17
…
Bad people hatch poisonous cockatrice eggs. Whoever eats the eggs will die, and when the eggs are crushed a viper hatches out of them. Isa 59:5

Here’s what I found:
The original Hebrew words tse′pha’ and tsiph•’oh•ni′ are understood by lexicographers to refer to poisonous snakes, and both may refer to some variety of viper, but identification is uncertain. Sadly the King James Version incorrectly translated these words as referring to the mythical “cockatrice,” at Isaiah 11:8; 14:29; 59:5; and Jeremiah 8:17.

Can Eagles carry their young on their wings? The Bible thinks so: Deut 32:11 "As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings"

Here’s a clearer reading:
“Just as an eagle stirs up its nest, Hovers over its fledglings, Spreads out its wings, takes them, Carries them on its pinions,” NWT

“like an eagle that stirs up its nest and hovers over its young, that spreads its wings to catch them and carries them on its pinions.” NIV

What about the Sun and the earth. Which one moves and which one is set solid on pillars with a fixed foundation?
"As the sun ... goeth forth in his might." The sun, according to the bible, goes around the earth. Judges 5:31

Here’s a much clearer reading:
“Thus let all your enemies perish, O Jehovah, And let your lovers be as when the sun goes forth in its mightiness.” And the land had no further disturbance for forty years.” NWT

“"So may all your enemies perish, O LORD! But may they who love you be like the sun when it rises in its strength."Then the land had peace forty years.” NIV

"..
"Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not."
The earth is fixed and the sun travels about it. 9:7

Clearer reading: it’s talking about the light from the sun.
“He speaks to the sun and it does not shine; he seals off the light of the stars.”NIV

The earth is set on foundations and it does not move. 38:4-6

The world also is established, that it cannot be moved." 93:1

"The world also shall be established that it shall not be moved." 96:10

These verses is not talking about the earth axis or its rotation – but simply saying that the earth will remain forever – will not be moved.

"The sun also ariseth"
Although this verse is interpreted figuratively today, it was taken literally by virtually all Christians until the Copernican revolution, and was used by the Church to condemn Galileo for teaching the heliocentric heresy. 1:5

That is why Christendom will be judge according to her sins (Matt 7:22, 23).

The dragon's tail smacks down to earth one third of the stars. To the author of Revelation, the stars are just little lights that can fall to the ground from the sky. Well Dragons are strong after all.

Book of Revelation contains symbolic words – such as “the Dragon – the original serpent Satan the Devil”. He is called a dragon in a sense that he is a devourer (Rev 12:3-4, 13-17). As a symbolic dragon he was able to get a third of God's heavenly sons (angels) represented by the stars (Job 38:7).

Daniel's tree is tall enough to be seen from "the end of all the earth." Only on a flat earth would this be possible. Daniel 4:10-11, 20

This is a vision that was given to the prophet Daniel about the Babylonian empire. As a world power King Nebuchadnezzar is above all as if the “tallest” of all the trees.
Here’s the complete text: “Now the visions of my head upon my bed I happened to be beholding,” said Nebuchadnezzar, “and, look! a tree in the midst of the earth, the height of which was immense....

cont..

...The tree grew up and became strong, and its very height finally reached the heavens, and it was visible to the extremity of the whole earth. Its foliage was fair, and its fruit was abundant, and there was food for all on it. Under it the beast of the field would seek shade, and on its boughs the birds of the heavens would dwell, and from it all flesh would feed itself.” (Daniel 4:10-12)

What does it mean? Let Daniel explain it:

“O my lord, may the dream apply to those hating you, and its interpretation to your adversaries. The tree that you beheld, that grew great and became strong . . . , it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth.” (Daniel 4:18-22)

Next:

The devil takes Jesus to the top of a mountain and shows him "all the kingdoms of the world." I guess the world was flat in those days. 4:5

Nothing about a “flat” earth here but it just shows you that Satan is the ruler of the world, that is the Kingdom of the world which nearing its end (see Dan 2:44, Matt 6:9). By what method Satan showed the “kingdoms of the world” to Jesus? Well if we can project images in movie theaters, I wouldn’t be surprised that he is capable of something similar.

Next:

Wikipedia seems to agree with this Flat geocentric Earth model of the bible
The worldview of the Tanakh is still clearly that of a flat earth (e.g.Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 44:24) in a geocentric universe (e.g. Joshua 10:12-13, Ps. 93:1, 1 Chron. 16:30), along with Mesopotamian astronomy of the period.

Terapin, may I suggest that you study the Bible more carefully and accurately with an open mind and a humble heart so as to learn its true contents. I'll show you a study aid book that will just do that.

Next you said:

Finally, my favorite way to cure Leprosy:
God's law for lepers: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. Lev 14:2-52

This is a ceremonial law given to the Israelites to perform before one is pronounced clean from leprosy. It’s NOT A CURE!

I would like to elaborate more how language in the King James Version beclouds understanding, but it‘ll take more space so instead here is a list of a few more examples, together with the word or phrase used by a modern translation to enable us to get the thought God wants us to get. I also added the other mistranslated words you’ve quoted.
With all the latest archeological discoveries (of ancient / oldest manuscripts) we can easily and confidently verify the accuracies of any Bible translations – from the oldest to the newest.

KING JAMES VERSION = MODERN TRANSLATION > BIBLE TEXT
alleging = proving by references > Acts 17:3
anon = at once > Mark 1:30
barbarous = foreign-speaking people > Acts 28:2
centurion = army officer > Acts 10:22
charger = plate > Matt. 14:11
charity = love > 1 Cor. 13:13
cheek teeth = fangs (RS) > Joel 1:6
cockatrice = cobra / poisonous snake > Isa 11:8; 14:29; 59:5; and Jer 8:17.
confectionaries = ointment mixers > 1 Sam. 8:13
divers places = in one place after another > Matt. 24:7

evolutionists and creationists are fighting 2 sides of the same coin.. no?

yes evolution is a proven fact, but who or what created the universe for us to evolve from/into ?

i personally dont believe in empty experiences with random occurence. who/what gave us life?

who/what gave us consciousness?

what if we were to combine the theories of God creating us, and then we evolved. just a thought.

dragon = jackals > Isa 35:7
drunken = sufficiently fed > 1 Cor. 11:21
leasing = lies (RS) > Ps. 4:2
mortify = put . . . to death > Rom. 8:13
outlandish women = foreign wives > Neh. 13:26
publican = tax collector > Matt. 10:3
sons of Belial = scoundrels > 1 Sam. 2:12
sod pottage = was boiling up some stew > Gen. 25:29
suffer = let > Mark 10:14
take no thought do not become anxious Matt. 10:19
turtle = turtledove (RS) > S. of So. 2:12
unicorn = wild bull > Num. 23:22
winked at = overlooked > Acts 17:30
do you to wit = let you know > 2 Cor. 8:1
wotteth not = does not know > Gen. 39:8

Compare also the NKJV to see the corrections made (although it still has errors).
Here's a website about the KJV errors: www.biblestudy.org...

Now I know you are not fond of the watchtower, but below is the link to the NWT (in case you change youre mind). I highly suggest that you get a copy of it and do the comparison yourself, you will be surprised of its directness, clarity and accuracy: www.watchtower.org...
Here's also the study aid book that I was talking about. You can request this book in addition to the NWT or use this link: www.watchtower.org...

Next you said:

As for current examples of evolution in our lifetimes. There are several examples, beyond viral ones, but one I like to point to, as it has significance for me, is Plasmodium falciparum. This is the parasite that causes Malaria. I travel to areas around the globe where Malaria is a problem and in certain regions the parasite has developed different resistances to different drug treatments. Depending on where I go, I have to take different medications, for the same parasite. The Parasite has evolved in response to environmental factors by way of genetic mutation and natural selection. If the parasite could not evolve, then it could not pass on any adaptations to environmental factors. What is even more interesting is that due to the historically long presence of malaria, and the high mortality rate, it has actually spurned Human evolution through genetic mutation and natural selection.
The presence of the parasite in human populations caused selection in the humangenome in a multitude of ways, as humans have been forced to develop resistance to the disease.

The “genetic mutation and natural selection” that you cited are happening within their kind (branch) – but not evolving /changing into another species according to my understanding of the evolution criteria. To me, it's mutatution or adaptation due to powerfull drugs (H1N1).


And finally:

This Human adaptation can be seen in the genetic code of certain ethnic groups.

Again human adaptation is not evolution since we are not evolving into another species but just adapting to our environment/circumstances.

Lastly, may I say that this "world" (system of things) is running out time so we be MUST be very sure of what we believe for if the things that are written in the Bible are faithful and true then the blessings are unimaginable – a paradise earth free from pain, suffering, wickedness and death (Rev 21:3-5). On the other hand if they are not then man’s future is doomed to fail but happily (for me) the former is the absolute truth.

ciao!

Originally posted by Aim2AttainMindfulness
evolutionists and creationists are fighting 2 sides of the same coin.. no?

yes evolution is a proven fact, but who or what created the universe for us to evolve from/into ?

i personally dont believe in empty experiences with random occurence. who/what gave us life?

who/what gave us consciousness?

what if we were to combine the theories of God creating us, and then we evolved. just a thought.

Won't work - tell me where do you put Jesus Christ in these picture? Do you even believe that he existed? If he did do you believe what he said when he said the following: Mark 10:6-9

However, from [the] beginning of creation ‘He made them male and female. 7 On this account a man will leave his father and mother, 8 and the two will be one flesh’; so that they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God yoked together let no man put apart.” 10 When again in the house the disciples began to question him concerning this. 11 And he said to them: “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, 12 and if ever a woman, after divorcing her husband, marries another, she commits adultery.”

Did you notice? Jesus mentioned Adam and Eve (male/female) were created by God. Fully grown, fully developed human being - lacking nothing.
They were NOT like what the evolutionist say "great apes".

In fact the two couples were perfect in every way - until they disobeyed God, thus here we are in an imperfect state needing a saviour (John 3:16).

Also, Gen 1:27 says
"And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”

Thus man was created in God's image - meaning we posses the qualities of God such as: LOVE, WISDOM, POWER and JUSTICE. We have the sense of time and eternity (conciousnes)

So evolution is incompatible with the Biblical Creation.

reply to post by edmc^2


It is very convenient to take the Bible Literally in some cases and Figuratively in other cases. Eagles never carry their young for example, but the bible says they do. Is that literal or figurative. Where does one decide which is which? One can easily explain away contradictions in the Bible if one chooses to when you can Interpret it any way you desire.

Given that the story of the resurrection was added hundreds of years later, as it does not appear in earlier versions, one has no choice but to take the entire book as parables deigned to teach, and not a book of literal facts.

I believe in the value of the Bible, but do not make the mistake of believing it is a book full of scientifically valid facts. It is a book invented by men with specific goals in mind. It is full of the faults men have.

Evolution is a fact. The exact specifics of how it happens is a theory. We learn more every day and refine our understanding. Adaptation over time IS evolution. Given enough time, you will have a new species quite different from it's ancestors.

The world is not 7000 years old. Adam never named all the animals, and 10 million species X2 would never have fit into the 100,000 square feet of Noah's Ark. Unless you choose to ignore the very specific details on size mentioned in the Bible, as being figurative and not literal. Indeed, giving exact measurements would be foolish unless it was literal. Otherwise, they would have not added figures and simply state that Noah built a boat. Pick and choose, literal and figurative. Invent what you choose to believe and reinterpret the rest. Take only two of a species and there is not enough genetic diversity for it to procreate a large population. We know this from experience.

[edit on 8/4/10 by Terapin]

oh, ok i see what you are saying now: the two cannot be fused (according to your views) i understand where you are coming from! i do not believe, myself in jesus christ, but i believe in the fact that God created the universe, and then we evolved.

but if you take the bible LITERALLY it is obviously absurd to think about such matters. so in your logic, yes. evolutionists beat creationists

reply to post by Terapin


An eagle DOES lift up it's young, when it is teaching it how to fly!
www.creativeyouthideas.com... ed_a_push.html

The mother eagle then beats her wings at the eaglets, harassing them, and driving them forward. Cowering before such an attack, the little eaglets climb up on the edge of the nest, only to be pushed over the side by the mother eagle. The eaglet falls, its wings struggling to catch the air currents, but flopping out of control due to inexperience.

Just before the eaglet crashes upon the rocks below, the mother eagle swoops down, catches it on her back, and soars upward into the sky. Much relieved, the young eaglet feels safe, until suddenly, without warning, the mother eagle dives downward, depriving the little eaglet of its grip. Once again it finds itself plummeting toward the ground.

Repeatedly the eaglet is dumped then rescued until it learns to catch the rising air currents and ride the winds. Its wings strengthen and soon the eaglet soars high above the earth, taking on the character of a true eagle.

Unfortunately, some eaglets refuse to use their wings and fly. Eventually, the mother eagle soars high one final time with the eaglet on her back, and with a wild screech of disappointment and pain, she dives out from under it and flies away, leaving it to its fate -- either “fly or die.”

reply to post by Terapin


The eagles wing. oh but the eagles, it says the eagles wing, the Bible even says the eagles wing. You're like this wicked combination of fixated and childish in some meaningless desperation. You arn't ever going prove anything except an inexperienced perception.

See More Articles On: how do eagles carry their young


19:3-4. As the Israelites were camped by Sinai, Moses went on the mountain and there God spoke to him about the pact He would ratify with the people (Jacob and Israel were synonyms for the nation). God compared His delivering the people out of Egypt, across the Red (Reed) Sea, and to Sinai to His carrying them on eagles’ wings (cf. Deut. 32:10-11). When young eagles are learning to fly, the mother eagle flies under them with her wings spread out to catch them. Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc.) 1983, 1985.

This comment is by Matthew Henry:



I bore you on eagles’ wings, a high expression of the wonderful tenderness God had shown for them. It is explained, Deu. 32:11, 12. It denotes great speed. God not only came upon the wing for their deliverance (when the set time was come, he rode on a cherub, and did fly), but he hastened them out, as it were, upon the wing. He did it also with great ease, with the strength as well as with the swiftness of an eagle: those that faint not, nor are weary, are said to mount up with wings as eagles, Isa. 40:31. Especially, it denotes God’s particular care of them and affection to them. Even Egypt, that iron furnace, was the nest in which these young ones were hatched, where they were first formed as the embryo of a nation; when, by the increase of their numbers, they grew to some maturity, they were carried out of that nest. Other birds carry their young in their talons, but the eagle (they say) upon her wings, so that even those archers who shoot flying cannot hurt the young ones, unless they first shoot through the old one. Thus, in the Red Sea, the pillar of cloud and fire, the token of God’s presence, interposed itself between the Israelites and their pursuers (lines of defence which could not be forced, a wall which could not be penetrated): yet this was not all; their way so paved, so guarded, was glorious, but their end much more so: I brought you unto myself. They were brought not only into a state of liberty and honour, but into covenant and communion with God. Henry, Matthew, Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Bible, (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers) 1997.

Dt 32:11 says: “As an eagle that stirreth up her nest, That fluttereth over her young, He spread abroad his wings, he took them, He bare them on his pinions.” This is good natural history at least. Former versions made these lines read as if the eagle carried its young on its wings, a thing wholly incompatible with flight in any bird. Samuel’s record of the lamentation of David over Saul and Jonathan is a wonderful poetic outburst and contains reference to this homing flight of the eagle (2 Sam 1:23).

Eagle one the eagle has landed.

If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e., Materialism and Astronomy - are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It's like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset.

C.S. Lewis



[edit on 9-4-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by Aim2AttainMindfulness


That is a valid proposition. Choosing to believe that God made the universe and then we evolved makes sense for many. Choosing to deny that Evolution is a fact, is simply burying ones head in the sand for the sake of religious dogma.

Originally posted by Yissachar1
A single celled organism that just popped into existence (irreducible complexity anyone?) , suddenly decided that it needed a toe... So it thought, and strained and meditated very hard over millions of years, which is hard considering that it could not think or anything, and out popped a toe...

Evolution is ludicrous... It take more faith for me to believe that than God...

but it makes more sense that god just always existed and magically made us? bleh!

christians have an arguement against evolution it goes something like this

"a watch implies a watchmaker, therefore there must be a designer of life as we know it" or something to that extent
i wonder if this is true who made god? remember a watch implies a watchmaker for you spiritual/superstitious/religious minded people
and i imagine someone will say something like "i dont question god" cause your afraid you might be wrong
"god just always was" no logical backing there watch-watchmaker
"he/she/schlee/it created themselves" in order to create you must first exist so theres a gritty in your face no for that one too
"the bible says....." dont even get me started

I've already said this a couple times in other threads so I am just repeating myself all over again.

IMO, Allah the Omnipotent has always existed and always will. I believe he lives in his own " Space " outside of the wonderful Universe that he created with his brilliant mind. When people talk about " We were created in Gods Image " they are under this perception that we were created out of his reflection in the Mirror. This just isn't true. It took me a while to figure this one out but IMO, when it says we were created in his image, I believe it means we were created out of Allah's image of us in his Mind. We were created out of the image of his thoughts and then he breathed his spirit into us; which gives us our consciousness and ability to debate our origins on this forum. =)


We can't even agree on where we came from and you truly believe that our minds can comprehend Allah's existence? No way. It is totally incomprehensible to our simple minds. Anyway, there is no doubt in my mind that Allah is real; this is based on personal experiences that are totally unbelievable but that's another story in itself.


When we do eventually leave this world and enter the next, all shall be revealed, even my Reality. It says in the Holy Quran that Allah is All-Knowing and knows all that we reveal and conceal in our Hearts.

More evidence that Allah is All-Knowing - it also states that " Not even a leaf falls from a tree without Allah knowing... "

=)

xoxo ~

reply to post by Illuminati_K1D


well thats a very interesting post however christians will say the same thing about expieriences with their god and so will hindus and many other religions out there what makes your expierinces so different from theirs?

it should based on it's teached in our public school's to be the truth.

and im sorry evolution is wrong..
way way too many reason why so.

im not saying the other is right either ...but evolution and darwinism is getting older than my underroo's.

Question: Can God make a rock so big that he can not push it? Yes or No.


Can anyone show me CREDIBLE scientific evidence that refutes evolution? Thus far every single piece of scientific research on the subject adds to our understanding of evolution. I fail to see why so many people are against science and for ignorance. The belief in God does not have to exclude the understanding of evolution. Even the Vatican embraced the findings of evolutionary scientists.

Religion is fine and dandy in just about what ever form you choose. Why does religion so often seek to deny learning about the world around us. People were sentenced to death by religious groups for believing that the Earth went round the Sun. Madness!!!

God can make anything without limits thus he can make a rock as big and heavy as he desires. God is all powerful after all right? Either God cannot make a rock so big that he can not push it, proving that he can not make anything he wants and it thus not all powerful, or He can make a rock so big he can not push it, proving that he is not powerful enough to push it, thus he is not all powerful. Either way, god comes up short.

[edit on 12/4/10 by Terapin]

reply to post by Terapin

Question: Can God make a rock so big that he can not push it? Yes or No.

Do you really think God sits around making/kicking rocks all day?

God created the Earth. The Earth can not produce a rock so big God
can't move it. NEXT! Run along now, find your next gem you think will have everyone stumped.



If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e., Materialism and Astronomy - are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It's like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset. C.S.Lewis




[edit on 12-4-2010 by randyvs]