evolution beats creationism 10 to 3 and thats generous

reply to post by _Phoenix_


Phoenix, you are correct that our development in the womb starts out less defined and later begins to separate sexual differences. This is why nipples are on both sexes. It is an evolved trait. Agreed that indeed they serve aesthetic purposes but we both know that men do not breastfeed except in very unusual circumstances, and that most men, even if they tried with medical help, could never lactate.

Forget about nipples then, as it seems that people do not get the point. What about our fragile Appendix? Why design it to be so fragile that it can easily rupture and kill us with toxins? Would it not be a more intelligent to design it to be a little bit more robust and less likely to burst? It would not take much imagination to design a better system, and certainly God is all knowing and powerful enough. Perhaps God did not design the appendix, but it evolved it's form. That would certainly let God off the hook.

According to "Intelligent Design" there is no evolution. Everything was designed "as is" from the beginning and does not evolve over time. I never stated that evolution proves that God does not exist. Many find the opposite, that Evolution is part of Gods plan and that God provided the spark and evolution did the rest, but that is not what Intelligent Design argues. Even the Vatican has embraced the findings of evolutionary scientists and dismisses Intelligent Design as it " Belittles God" They called Intelligent Design a "cultural phenomenon" but gave it little merit. Those who espouse Intelligent Design claim evolution is a myth. They would do well to be a bit more flexible and open minded. There is plenty of room for God and science to coexist.

[edit on 23/3/10 by Terapin]

reply to post by Terapin


Like what I said “instinctively wise and learned traits”. So yes animals can learn but to a certain degree. Once the traits are implanted/wired/programmed in their brain then they “learn” the trade (trick). Why I know a parrot that can talk a full sentence or two but that’s about it until the next session. Perfect examples are the animals in circuses or animal shows. But it takes a talented trainer to train these animals and takes months even years before they are put to work. Then there are the migrating birds, I’ll just site two but there are hundreds of them:

cont...
The long-distance champions are the arctic terns. Nesting north of the Arctic Circle, at summer’s end they fly south to spend the Antarctic summer on the pack ice near the South Pole. They may circle the entire continent of Antarctica before heading north to return to the Arctic. They thus complete an annual migration of about 22,000 miles. Rich food sources are available at both polar regions, so one scientist raises the question: “How did they ever discover that such sources existed so far apart?”Evolution has no answer.

Another example: birds that do not fly but walk and swim. Consider the Adélie penguins. When removed 1,200 miles from their rookeries and released, they quickly oriented themselves and set out in a straight line, not for the home rookery from which they were taken, but for the open sea and food. From the sea they eventually returned to the rookery. They spend the almost totally dark winters at sea. But how do the penguins stay oriented during the dark winter? No one knows.

How do birds perform these feats of navigation? Experiments indicate that they may use the sun and the stars and somehow appear to have internal clocks or compass or a map in their heads to compensate for the movement of these heavenly bodies. But none of this helps unless they know where they are located on the map!

In contrast, a man can reflect on the past and can plan for the future. In the privacy of his own home, he can think back to his boyhood days—his pranks, disappointments, failures, successes and joys. He can plan future moves—building a new house, purchasing furniture, determining the kind of education he would like for his children to get, and so forth. But can a dog, for example, meditate about its puppyhood, the children that played with it then, its becoming full grown and then mating? In his book Animals Are Quite Different, Hans Bauer shows what research has revealed:

“The dog will always need an actual sense-impression to enable it to conjure up former incidents. He may be taken, let us say, on a certain occasion to an unfamiliar town in which he undergoes some experience or other. After his return home the impressions then received will have been forgotten. But if he goes back to the same spot he will remember them. It is in fact one of the special peculiarities and advantages of the human as compared with the animal psychological structure that the content of human memory is not associated with the needs of every day but embedded in the stream of consciousness as a whole.”

cont...

Thus, unlike man, animals cannot at will reconstruct events of the past.
But can they plan ahead for the future? Do not hamsters, certain ants, squirrels and other animals store up or hide food supplies for later use? Is not this a planning ahead for the future so as not to suffer want in winter? “No,” says the above-mentioned author, and he gives these facts in support:

“They do not know what they are doing or why they do it. They simply proceed in accordance with instinct, the proof being that even animals removed from their parents at a very early age and kept in cages begin ‘collecting’ in the autumn. Such animals have never known winter conditions and will not be deprived of nourishment in the coming months. Nevertheless, they ‘hoard’ simply for the sake of ‘hoarding.’”

Summing up the contrast between man and animals, he remarks:

“The world of animals is therefore exclusively that of the present moment in the most literal sense of the word. For they can easily be diverted from even the most fascinating objects by others of more immediate appeal at the time and never afterwards return to the former.”

Truly, then, man alone has a concept of “time indefinite,” the ability to meditate on the past and to look toward the future, planning for it.

BTW, thank you for correcting my mistake, I misspoke about the tortoise, I meant they can live longer than humans. Also, may I take it that you are a proponent of “ID”?

Also, I'm glad that you've read the bible cover to cover, although not a science book, do you agree that it's 100% accurate when it touches (true) science?

Originally posted by edmc^2
cont...

Thus, unlike man, animals cannot at will reconstruct events of the past.
But can they plan ahead for the future?

Hans Bauer wrote that book 53 years ago and we have learned quite a bit since then. A number of his suppositions have been proven to be inaccurate, I do not fault him for it, as our knowledge of the subject has increased significantly since then.

Some animals can indeed reconstruct the past at will, and I gave you a very specific example in a previous post which illustrates this perfectly. Many animals can indeed also plan for the future and I am not talking about Ants gathering for the winter. That is instinct, a behavior pattern ingrained in their system which requires no conscious thought. It is much like blinking, something we simply do without thought or design. Learned behaviors are quite different and they do not require a trainer. Some species of animals can learn all on their own without a teacher. Even the common crow has demonstrated a remarkable ability to reason, and learn all on its own.

Perhaps you have heard of the crows that learned all on their own to collect dropped coins from the street, and to deposit them into a special box that was designed for the purpose, where upon they receive peanuts as a reward. No one taught them how to do this, the opportunity was simple created by a curious and clever human, and the crows reasoned and figured it out all on their own. Squirrels would simply look at the box full of unobtainable peanuts and then go play in the street, but Crows reasoned that they could take advantage of the system, and the clever human who made the box, gets free coins in exchange for a few peanuts. This is not instinct. It is a smart bird who understands causality and can reason solutions to problems. How to get the peanuts from the box. No one trained them how to do it, nor did they demonstrate it to them. Crows evolved capable brains to help them forage in unique ways which give them a survival advantage.

I have worked with a wide variety of wildlife from birds of prey to one of the Great Ape species, and have witnessed several instances of self learned behaviors. A number of animals are tool users. A learned behavior not an instinct. There are several examples of this in a number of species, not all of them primates. Using a tool indicates Reasoning, planning, and an expectation of a future outcome.

Would it surprise you that Humans and Apes have evolved behaviors in common? It is true and they are demonstrable. Behaviors that most are unaware of, and do not control consciously. Behaviors what we gained from our ape ancestors and continue with today.

I am not at all a proponent of ID as it is junk science which ignores reality in order to promote a specific faith based agenda. The Bible while full of much useful though, also contains scientific inaccuracies and at times contradictions to itself. It does not matter as it is not a book of science but a book designed to teach certain social values. No one choses the Bible to learn astronomy or physics. They choose it to learn a certain set of social customs and values. It is a quite good book for that, provided that it be read with an open mind and an understanding that it is not a book of hard facts.

hey, i just saw the title and i know what to write...hehe dang dude....darwin said himself it was iffy and evolution couldnt explain the eyeball....or he said if any sign of reverse evoltion was seen it would be invalid.....his dad started his journey.
there's plenty of invaliddity proofs....thousands...and scientists are backtracking big time in the face of organised life forces and details. muscle types show reverse evolution time lines, so get your facts read-up on, man, get some vision ...rookie

[edit on 24-3-2010 by GBP/JPY]

evolution don't prove that theres no god lol. I see alot of you blinding stating none facts. all for what just becasue god don't pop up and say hi to everyone come on now. You all bible people think evolution is not real whys this? the bible planly says evolution is real but not the way people take it. why must god take blame for you not seeing what he does? why do you all think the worlds not young just because its over 30+ billion years old what you think when god says the earth is young he never said t o what. he also talks about repeating life in the bible but everyone so blind to see. that what the bible does state is that when we kil ourselfs off he steps in and resets it. why he does this due to heaven is on earth and we got to build it before he will come and live with us. are we can make this earth hell and kill ourselfs off again. i bet if you take the time to think you can bring up your pass lifes s o you don't repeat this mistake again in your next.

But the nagain you all say god kills people when he does its ok due t ohe can bring them back when he fills ready to. as for you people who say theres no god. why just because he don't bend to your all will and prove him self to you. wtf i an't saying you got to beleave but what will u do if your wrong? yea you will say but god love everyone but really do u what 1000 years in hell just to be proved wrong. I try to stay out of this stuff but you all or so slow with comperhanding a book thats planing state these things.

now your say but you said we will repeat so theres no hell wrong. it talks about none fellows sending 100 years in hell for no beleavers. as for open minded people i will draw up a fell report on this. i can tell you one thing why is it the USA spend over 1billion a year to fund researce on him????

So it is a fact because what, you say it. Or some scientists says it that I know nothing of. The thing is evolution can edge religion out all day. Creationism on the other hand is a much harder task.

BTW, grats on finding the newest cult called atheism.

[edit on 26-3-2010 by ventian]

evolution and Creationism can play hand in hand!

reply to post by lightningz


I am not sure that Evolution and Creationism can play hand in hand, but certainly evolution and God can fit together well.

Creationism says that everything was created in the form it currently has. Every plant and animal is the way it has always been and nothing has ever changed. A giraffe has always been a giraffe since the beginning of time. Evolution says that every living thing evolved over time, from a distant ancestor that looked quite different, to its present modern form. Two contrary ideas.

But . . . there is plenty of room for Gods hand in evolution, if that is the way you wish to see it. God could have given the initial spark of life, and God could have written the rules for Evolution. There is nothing about Evolution that excludes God. Evolution however does exclude Creationism.

Originally posted by Terapin
reply to post by lightningz

 

I am not sure that Evolution and Creationism can play hand in hand, but certainly evolution and God can fit together well....

On the contrary -
Notice:
"Shortly after Charles Darwin made the theory of evolution popular, many so-called Christian denominations started looking for ways to marry their belief in God to their acceptance of the theory of evolution.

Today, most prominent “Christian” religious groups seem willing to accept that God must have used evolution in some way to create life. Some teach that God preprogrammed the universe to develop in such a way that living things inevitably evolved from lifeless chemicals and eventually produced mankind. Those who subscribe to this teaching, known as theistic evolution, do not feel that God interfered with the process once it started. Others think that, in general, God allowed evolution to produce most families of plants and animals but occasionally stepped in to move the process along.

The Marriage of Teachings—Does It Work?
Is the theory of evolution really compatible with the teachings of the Bible? If evolution were true, then the Bible’s account of the creation of the first man, Adam, would be, at best, a story meant to teach a moral lesson but not intended to be taken literally. (Genesis 1:26, 27; 2:18-24) Is that how Jesus viewed this Bible account? “Did you not read,” said Jesus, “that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together let no man put apart.”—Matthew 19:4-6.

Jesus was here quoting from the creation account recorded in Genesis chapter 2. If Jesus believed the first marriage to be a fictional story, would he have made reference to it to support his teaching on the sanctity of marriage? No. Jesus pointed to the Genesis account because he knew it to be true history.—John 17:17"

There's more information here:
www.watchtower.org...

Creation a fact!
www.watchtower.org...

Watchtower?? LOL You use a failed religion to back up your claims? They predicted the end of the world, several times, and it never happened. It is a group that chooses ignorance over knowledge. To deny evolution is to deny Gods great design and that is a sin.

Creationism states that every living thing today was created in the beginning in it's exact current form. We know that not to be true and the evidence is overwhelming. This does not mean that God did not design evolution, it means that when people wrote the bible they had no real understanding of the world around them. We know better now and can include evolution into the work of God. Ignoring evolution, which happens before our eyes as we have seen species evolve within our lifetime, is simply a choice of ignorance.

You plagiarized heavily from the web site you linked to. Shame on you! In the future you should use the EX feature here on ATS as plagiarism is prohibited and indicates sloppy thinking. You also misunderstand the meaning of Creationism, as the website you copied from contradicts reality. Jehova Witness is a religion based on the ignorance of fact. Facts that we can see with our own eyes. Even the Vatican has embraced the findings of evolutionary scientists. The Bible is a social guide, not a book of science. It is full of scientifically inaccurate concepts, and also full of good moral guidance. I am disappointed as I thought you had more to offer than self imposed blindness.

Jesus also thought that the Sun revolved around the Earth. There are many places in the Bible where it is stated that the Earth does not move, does not turn on its axis nor revolve around the sun, but the sun moves. The Bible also states that the Moon is a light source in itself, whos purpose is to light up the night. We know that the Moon only reflects the Suns light and we also know that the Moon spends a great deal of it's time visible in the daytime and regularly leaves the nighttime dark.

The Bible states that Bats are a kind of Bird which is incorrect, and that Rabbits are ruminants, or that they chew their cud like cows, but we know this to be false. The Bible states that Eagles carry their young on their wings, which is factually incorrect and scientifically impossible.

The Bible in a few passages states that the Earth is flat, not round. In one passage it talks about a tree that is so tall it can be seen by every spot on earth, which is odd because how can one see around to the other side of a sphere? The Bible also talks about a mountain where from the top you can see every part of the world, again giving one the ability to see around a sphere?

The Bible also talks about a race of Giants in several different passages, also unicorns, various dragons, cockatrice, and a number of creatures that never existed.

As I stated earlier, the Bible is meant as a guide to social conventions and a morality code. It is not meant to be a book of scientific facts as clearly it has several of them quite wrong.

[edit on 27/3/10 by Terapin]

Originally posted by ashanu90
science has backed up evolution time and time again it's true!! watch cosmos!

if anything, science has shown us the obviousness of design. the same way you see a statue and can immediately assume that it was man made and not carved by the wind.

nowhere is this design more evident that in DNA which is something scientists are still trying to figure out.

"scientists" especially of the kind like dr.dawkins refuse to acknowledge that for whatever reason.

and creotionism has no backing other than the bible and many christians will say that the fact the bible exists proves everything about god, angels and, creation.

completely unsubstantiated statement.

the bible is supported by scientific accurancy, historical accuracy, attempts to destroy the bible, attempts to change the bible and even prophecy that is specific. the exact reason the bible is so hotly contested is because it DOES have alot of evidence to support it. even the fact we are debating this now is evidence that the bible is no normal book.

also beleivers say the bible is historically accurate
well yes it is on many things but news flash
the pyramids were built by egyptian contractors who were paid very well not jewish slaves

the bible only said that they were slaves. it said nothing about pyramids so im not sure were you are getting this conclusion.

1) The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. Genesis 1:1 The earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. From science, we know that the true order of events was just the opposite.

wrong. infact it is the opposite. scientists are amazing that moses got it right. the problem is how you are reading it.

the creation account is written from the point of view of a person standing on the earth.

i posted an entire explaination of the creation account here including what the creation "day" really meant here...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Terapin
Watchtower?? LOL You use a failed religion to back up your claims? They predicted the end of the world, several times, and it never happened.

yup. but it goes to show you that they are paying attention. didnt jesus say we would come as a thief in the night and to stay awake?

even if they check the door and its just the wind, arent they doing thier job?

To deny evolution is to deny Gods great design and that is a sin.

isnt it also a sin to give god's glory to other things? doesnt eveolution take away from wisdom of god's design?

Creationism states that every living thing today was created in the beginning in it's exact current form.

some forms yes, but the bible doesnt even agree with that. it states that god created animals according to thier "kind". a bat may adapt and look different that another bat but it will always be a bat. it will never become something else.

We know better now and can include evolution into the work of God. Ignoring evolution, which happens before our eyes as we have seen species evolve within our lifetime, is simply a choice of ignorance.

the changing of a beak or a change in color is not "speciation".

if you want to see the frustration of evolutionist regarding speciation, just read up on the fruit fly experiments that have been going on for decades and how the little buggers refuse to evolve

Jehova Witness is a religion based on the ignorance of fact. Facts that we can see with our own eyes.

oh, you mean fossils that leave gaps, or do you mean so called "speciation"

Even the Vatican has embraced the findings of evolutionary scientists. The Bible is a social guide, not a book of science. It is full of scientifically inaccurate concepts,

where?

I am disappointed as I thought you had more to offer than self imposed blindness.

interesting that you should use that word.

2 cor 4:[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

interesting that the world doesnt know what to believe anymore

reply to post by Terapin


Just stating the facts - that is why I included the website so that you will know that the truth about the magnifience of the Creator is out there - nothing to hide. It's all there for all to see and verify whether evolution is a fact or just a theory. On the other hand - Creation is supported by facts that many people now can't deny and are now realizing. The more knowledge we gain about nature the more it reaffirms the truth that the sole source of life is no ther othan the Creator himself.

reply to post by Terapin

The Bible states that Bats are a kind of Bird which is incorrect, and that Rabbits are ruminants, or that they chew their cud like cows, but we know this to be false. The Bible states that Eagles carry their young on their wings, which is factually incorrect and scientifically impossible.

More ignorance? Do you need another spanking? What are you spouting lies for? Where does it say that bats are btrds? Never mind it dosn't.
Terapin you know nothing of what you speak. If you like, I can show you so one more time.

Lev. 11:13, 19 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls...And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat. (See also Deut. 14:11, 18)
2 years
Does this say bats are birds to you. Why do you insist on ambarassiing yourself.
Talking to the Isrealites about what they should not eat.It gives a list of the fowls then says also the bat. Ignorance !
the only thing you keep showing me is how manipulated your thinking is.
.Who is the one who was tasked with naming every animal?
It was Adam.

[edit on 29-3-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


do you really honestly believe that one man has named every animal in existance? and that he live for over 900 years? or even that a human being can be magically turned to a pillar of salt? do you also believe in santa claus? how about batman? perhaps it is you who embaress yourself.

if you believe you won the argument then why are you still here? i think it is to stir up more drama
if not, you keep coming back to this thread for something
so what is it that you want?


[edit on 29-3-2010 by ashanu90]

[edit on 29-3-2010 by ashanu90]

[edit on 30-3-2010 by ashanu90]

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Terapin

 

Lev. 11:13, 19 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls...And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat. (See also Deut. 14:11, 18)
It gives a list of the fowls then says also the bat.
[edit on 29-3-2010 by randyvs]

your ignorance is appaling it lists FOWLS and the bat is included in this list
meaning that the statement claims bats ARE birds
fowls=birds

go do something constructive

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by ashanu90
science has backed up evolution time and time again it's true!! watch cosmos!

if anything, science has shown us the obviousness of design. the same way you see a statue and can immediately assume that it was man made and not carved by the wind.

1nowhere is this design more evident that in DNA which is something scientists are still trying to figure out.

2"scientists" especially of the kind like dr.dawkins refuse to acknowledge that for whatever reason.

and creotionism has no backing other than the bible and many christians will say that the fact the bible exists proves everything about god, angels and, creation.

3completely unsubstantiated statement.

4the bible is supported by scientific accurancy, historical accuracy, attempts to destroy the bible, attempts to change the bible and even prophecy that is specific. the exact reason the bible is so hotly contested is because it DOES have alot of evidence to support it. even the fact we are debating this now is evidence that the bible is no normal book.

also beleivers say the bible is historically accurate
well yes it is on many things but news flash
the pyramids were built by egyptian contractors who were paid very well not jewish slaves

5the bible only said that they were slaves. it said nothing about pyramids so im not sure were you are getting this conclusion.

1) The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. Genesis 1:1 The earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. From science, we know that the true order of events was just the opposite.

6wrong. infact it is the opposite. scientists are amazing that moses got it right. the problem is how you are reading it.

7the creation account is written from the point of view of a person standing on the earth.

i posted an entire explaination of the creation account here including what the creation "day" really meant here...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

1says who? perry stone? ignorance.
2.taht is your speculation that he ignores this.
it is apparent that he knows differently, and he is well versed in many religions but he is still an atheist i think he has done his homework quite well
3ive actually heard people say this
4.a bible can be destroyed easily theres a thing called fire you know
and the bible is only partially historically correct i still am not convinced of the genesis account
5.if jews were slaves do you honestly think the pharoh would let the jews lie around while the egyptians busted their asses building the pyramids? LOGIC!!
6. mioses didn't write the bible i doubt he even existed.
emporer constantine wrote the biblle to control his subjects
7. and why do you say that?

why do you defend creationism? whats in it for you?

Evolution Creates new variations in the Species....