So, Isn't Satan the Good Guy?

Originally posted by RedDragon

Originally posted by GamleGamle
reply to post by trueperspective

 

We don't look kindly to people who we see as being facilitating ignorance you hear. NOW GET. ( sarcasm )

Seriously in the end people will decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong or even go their own way alltogheter discarding dualism.

Hey buddy you are believing in a bad bad god, but you seem quite nice so follow your bliss and your heart and i do not mind your believe system. ( a bit more sarcasm their. )

Do not deny ignorance, facilatate understandig to the best of your capabilities thats what i say.

Personally, I believe that right and wrong are whatever you say they are. There's no governing force that makes good the right thing to do or that defines good. Killing a human is in the absolute sense no different than breaking a rock. The reason that I have morals and don't kill people even in the absence of religious belief is that empathy is ingrained in me.

How, why? I don't know. Probably a combination of genetics and sensory input (culture) since it's also present in our evolutionary ancestors and brothers.

[edit on 3/12/10 by RedDragon]

haha just to reply to this, i now know what does determine morality. it's a part of your brain above your right ear. the bigger the size, the more 'moral' or empathetic you are. the smaller, the less. disrupt it with an electrogmagnet and the most moral person in the history of mankind say for example jesus becomes a sociopath that doesn't care one bit about the feelings of other people.

edit: since a lot of people here believe in aliens and stuff, this has an application to that. the odds of another alien species having an equivalent morality center is very low for numerous reasons. thus, anything they do to seemingly help us or seem to want to help us must be a form of manipulation to take advantage of us.

[edit on 4/8/10 by RedDragon]

There's a place for you OP, if you enjoy Satan and thoughts of him as the "good guy". Why not go to Johnathan Cremes website and plead with him to spread the word of Lucifer! |Seriously, in this time and age it's time to clear out the grey areas of belief. Just pick your side man! It's those in-betweens and might-be-saved that God Considers, and Compares. Will you do us all a big solid and choose? Research dude. Lots.

reply to post by Conclusion


Great analogy. This is God's world, we have been given the opportunity to live here, and we will until we die. We can move on to the next world, but only if we abide by his rules. Which I believe, proves we discipline and something positive to contribute on the next level. Not to mention, it proves that you aren't too self centered to swallow your pride and accept a higher power. A higher power that requires your faith. There is a lot we don't understand, much we will never be able to even comprehend in this world. Personally, I want to move on to the next round.

P.s. Satan is the bad guy.

Very interesting OP. I've wondered the same things, agnostic here as well. Have you read the Apocrypha, or books on included during the finalizing of the old testament? Worth a read through.

You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Thats the 2nd commandment. Isn't it a sin to be jealous?

You shall not murder.

God supposedly flooded the Earth and wiped out everything except Noah, etc. That counts as murder, doesn't it?

It's also a sin to be proud and have pride in stuff. Whilst one type of Satanism says you can be proud and lead your own life the way you want it to be, etc.

Satan doesn't seem as bad as the bible makes him out to be.

I think its funny how many atheists and agnostics, no matter how strong their beliefs are, they always seem to come back to the Christians to ask more questions...

Just a fun observation...

Originally posted by Northwarden
There's a place for you OP, if you enjoy Satan and thoughts of him as the "good guy". Why not go to Johnathan Cremes website and plead with him to spread the word of Lucifer! |Seriously, in this time and age it's time to clear out the grey areas of belief. Just pick your side man! It's those in-betweens and might-be-saved that God Considers, and Compares. Will you do us all a big solid and choose? Research dude. Lots.

haha I don't believe that Satan exists man. My arguments here are similar to making hypothetical arguments about the Lord of the Rings. It's just entertainment and a thought exercise.

reply to post by Sozen94


murder is illegal killing and anything god does is good, since god is all that is good, so it's impossible for god to murder. he could kill every person and living thing in existance, and it wouldn't be murder to christians. could even torture and rape everything in existance and it would actually be an act of good.

[edit on 4/9/10 by RedDragon]

[edit on 4/9/10 by RedDragon]

[edit on 4/9/10 by RedDragon]

reply to post by Signals



That is pretty wild, I've never heard of this Blackstar cartoon.
Pretty bold move, there. I'll look more into it.

Here is one of my favorites that was a bit more blunt in its message.
I could have sworn I'd seen it on PBS one night but they are saying that it was banned, although I am not sure why. It is based on "The Mysterious Stranger", written by Mark Twain.

Mark Twain and some kids meet Satan...with very interesting results:



His comment at the end was the coup de grâce.

Although edited here it is in its entirety:

"Strange! that you should not have suspected years ago--centuries, ages, eons, ago! --for you have existed, companionless, through all the eternities. Strange, indeed, that you should not have suspected that your universe and its contents were only dreams, visions, fiction! Strange, because they are so frankly and hysterically insane--like all dreams: a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice and invented hell--mouths mercy and invented hell--mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!...

"You perceive, now, that these things are all impossible except in a dream. You perceive that they are pure and puerile insanities, the silly creations of an imagination that is not conscious of its freaks--in a word, that they are a dream, and you the maker of it. The dream-marks are all present; you should have recognized them earlier.

"It is true, that which I have revealed to you; there is no God, no universe, no human race, no earthly life, no heaven, no hell. It is all a dream--a grotesque and foolish dream. Nothing exists but you. And you are but a thought--a vagrant thought, a useless thought, a homeless thought, wandering forlorn among the empty eternities!"

He vanished, and left me appalled; for I knew, and realized, that all he had said was true.

Very challenging concepts in there.

- Lee

s & f

because you are correct

Murder counts of the bible:

Satan 10
God 2.3 million, not including the flood victims

Not only murder, but 'god' was responsible for the kidnappings, rapes, and tortures, as well, even innocent babies.

When people say they 'love' god, they actually fear him.

He was, afterall, an egotistic, maniacal tyrant that killed at will. What did Satan do?

He wanted to bring wisdom and intelligence to humanity (Garden of Eden) and he was labeled 'liar' and 'tempest' and the father of all evil, only because he decided to expose god for what he really was about.

God created us as a slave race (for all the gods). We were never meant to be think on our own and that is why Satan was considered a 'traitor...aka...serpent'.

reply to post by RedDragon


I've pondered this as well.
Then I thought maybe the serpent was an alien... and well you know where it goes from there.
But on a much more dire note- Whenever I think of the almighty god of the abrahamic religions, I can't help but think- didn't he know we were going to take the apple. I mean he knows everything or at least thats what we were told in the catholic school system.
If he is so freakin epicly powerful and all knowing- why the hell did he make the tree and breath a serpent- unless it was all part of the plan.
SOOOOOOOOOOOO
for me, we have two options.
A) God isn't as powerful as he thinks, and that maybe there are other forces just as powerful- ie some reptilian or next dimensional beings.
B) God has one sick sense of humor.
ORRRR
C) all of the above.
I still think most of our religions were probably influenced by visitors OR us from the future.
I mean why not.
OUCH
my brain hurts.

Originally posted by ButterCookie

Murder counts of the bible:

Satan 10
God 2.3 million, not including the flood victims

By the standard you are suggesting, God is "responsible" for every death that ever occurred, save some minor over-flow which you attribute to Satan. First-off, this takes no concern of soul-quality into account, or immortality/ascension that might be granted by way of the continuance of the gift of life which we have been provided - only our biological essence, our earth vessels, seem to hold that measure of interest in your mind. I find that near-sighted and a lack of the basic understandings of our lives and their intended design. Most Christians hold that the soul already has this lasting quality which will survive death, and it is our choice to accept or reject the heavenly home we are hoped to aspire to, be a part of, and return to after our demise.

To view God as anything less than a fair arbiter of justice for our misdeeds is a bad mistake, as defined by the commandments, and all other heavenly order which supports our traditional societal backbone, and the same that we know in our hearts to be in keeping with sound conscience. If God is not perfect in His virtues, then He would be untrue to His own words. If you view the lives of those who were "murdered" by God, as you put it, can you not see evidence of blasphemy, blind disrespect, ongoing rebelliousness, crimes against humanity, warring against peaceful neighbours, theft of others rights, trampling of their hard-won dignity and character, and excesses of decadence that lead to pride, arrogance, and obstinate conceits? Please don't cry "unfair" if their penalty under God was the removal of the gift of life, the very gift He provided in the first place. Neither should we doubt that our limited and often muddied perspectives simply cannot encompass the vast perspectives which would be required to establish a perfect justice, one that includes all past warnings, weighs all deeds - inner and apparent - and arrives at a fair conclusion. If God chooses to remove a very evil-deeded individual from earth based on their past activities, or on account of their utter disrespect for that which is holy and sacred to God, or to protect innocents, then is this "murder" or is this "justice"?

Not only murder, but 'god' was responsible for the kidnappings, rapes, and tortures, as well, even innocent babies.

When people say they 'love' god, they actually fear him.

I don't know how you draw these conclusions. As to fear/love : if you have a stern boss who holds your livelihood in your hands, let's assume you like that job as well, do you not respect the boss within the boundaries of the workplace laws which they require upheld? If you are fair-treated and shown free will to act, given regular pays, given due time to complete tasks, encouragement, and a measure of protection from radicals while at work, will you not also grow to like or love that boss as well?

He was, afterall, an egotistic, maniacal tyrant that killed at will. What did Satan do?

Who is the creation to say to their Creator, "why did you make me this way"? Given Gods attributes, standing, and all the amazing designs He has brought forth, can't you accept His perfection, power, position, and divine identity with an ounce of serenity, and stop carrying on like a fallen angel? You haven't even reached that "status" yet, and you're already a foaming rebel to the cause! Think you'll ever rise above it at that pace, or will your pride carry you away into delusion and dreams of self-glory and grandeur? Time shall tell. The lighthouse warns and the truths are there to be understood, and His law is written in our hearts, lest we forget our intended design and the invite to rejoin our heritage. You're always welcome to smash yourself against the shoals instead, but forget trying to have power over Him. You can only delude those on earth with your wacky words, which can easily be to your future detriment.

He wanted to bring wisdom and intelligence to humanity (Garden of Eden) and he was labeled 'liar' and 'tempest' and the father of all evil, only because he decided to expose god for what he really was about.

God created us as a slave race (for all the gods). We were never meant to be think on our own and that is why Satan was considered a 'traitor...aka...serpent'.

Dead wrong. God provides free will, and the serpent is ever the manipulative and willful weaver of lies, proud behaviour, foolish actions, miasmic shrouds, and forced corrals of thought. It takes a lot of resistance and bold stances to actually accomplish doing the right thing, and the drive to rise above the "mindlessly happy" molds and trenches society and its luciferian engineers present. If the serpent had not tempted Adam and Eve, then death would not have existed, either. We were certainly designed to think with free will ("on our own"), because God does not want worship from an automation. There is nothing wrong with service to one another, and this does not constitute slavery. Slavery was never advocated as a likeable practice in the Bible, it was condoned as an element of the times, and addressed as it was to better the lot of slaves - "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" - Christianity wasn't intended to remodel to political makeover of the Roman Empire. So blame the polytheistic rulers of that camp, not the Bible, or God, for addressing the scene that existed.

A slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness? Which offers true freedom? The snare of death is still sin, and it binds lives to hopelessness, despair, intellectual pride, obstinate habits, and to obnoxious and foolish activity.

Originally posted by Sover3igN
Well... scew the damn woman for being curious, and cursed dude who fel for here charms...

It is Satan who brought us here in the first place. So yes he is a bad bad man.

The devil made me do it is not a valid excuse.

If someone is on a bridge about to commit suicide, the devil cannot push him over to fall, and neither can God pull him by the shirt to keep him from jumping. satan will put thoughts in the mind to convince the individual to jump, and God is also there trying to reason with that same individual why he should not jump.

The individual will therefore make a "conscious" decision on what to do.Freewill at all times, with 2 forces trying to influence our decisions.

We decide who we obey.

Originally posted by pexx421
I think in most organized religions, Satan, the devil, or whathaveyou, usually represents those aspects of humanity most oppressed by that particular religion. Hence in christianity the devil represents sexuality and the quest for knowledge. He is the necessary part of any ideology that completes the human whole. As such, he/she provides the balance to gods order with chaos, of discipline with creativity, and yin to yang. Part of the same being in my mind, as all that exists IS god.

True in what you say regarding christian organized religions. They are mostly in error in one or more parts of their doctrine. That is why God never says, Go out and make "christians" all over the world. He says, Go out and make disciples of My Word. Big difference.
God gave us sex, to be enjoyed with 1 person whom we commit to and love for the purpose of pleasure and reproduction. The devil turns that which was intended for good and perverts it. orgies, anal sex, cheating, hitting and quitting, etc...etc...etc...
When we humans have sex as God intended it, we are not making love, we are celebrating love. Reason,...God is love (amongst other things) and we cannot make Him, when 2 married people,(male and female only) come together intimately, it is an act of worship and a celebration.

reply to post by RedDragon



If you make a deal with someone and they lied to you and you end up with the short end of the stick, would you ever do business with that person or believe them again? Of course the answer is no.

So satan lies to Eve and tells her that the knowledge of the tree will make her like God and that she will not die.

Of course she believed satan, and she ended up with the short end of the stick because she was not equal to God and now she was destined to work harder than needed, go thru unnecessary pain, and to die.

So, satan lied, continues to lie, and people continue doing business with him. And we wonder why the world is going to hell in a handbasket.

There are some interesting theories on what Lucifier's role is. One is that he actually rehabilitates souls. He gets souls ready for heaven. My belief is that when a person dies, they don't go directly to Heaven because it says when Jesus comes back, those dead in Christ will rise first. So where are the souls until Judgement? Maybe the ones dead in Christ fast foward to Judgement while the others spend the time in Hell for rehab. I myself believe in God and Christ but read in between the lines of the bible. The bible is man's interpretation of God's word. Could have man altered the Word, sure but do you throw the baby out with the bath water? The bible is a good place to start but research against it with other writings and research. Man wrote history books but alot of people take it as fact. This is what I don't understand with people that do not believe in God. The say it was written by man but so has every other book on this planet. I for one really don't care who or what you believe in but as long as you make an informed decision with all the info thats available is all that matters. No ones going to prove or disprove God so its whatever makes sense to you. Sorry to go a little off topic but I find it funny when someone calls a Christian dumb for believing when no one can prove it one way or another.

reply to post by RedDragon


Not all Christians believe that every word and deed written in the Bible actually represent God's point of view.

If you read all the books of the Bible you should notice that not every ancient priest or prophet followed the core principles that God gave as the 10 commandments. Not every war they fought was approved by God. At times, they even fought wars on behalf of evil god(s) who they were worshiping against God's instruction at a particular point in time.

There are numerous occasions where the King's priests and prophets advised the leaders and the people falsely in the name of God, which always lead to their eventual punishment by God. The book of Samuel describes the kind of prophet God would typically send to warn everyone to correct their way. These prophets were usually killed because the right thing to do wasn't always advantageous.

The OT books are full of constant disobedience by the ancient Israelites against their own God. So it shouldn't be too hard to recognize that they were often plagued by priests who were doing the wrong thing in God's eyes yet telling everyone that they had God's blessing. After all, this is the nature of false priests and prophets. It also shouldn't be too hard to recognize that these false priests in power were also likely the same ones who had authority to scribe passages in their official copy of ancient books.

The person with wealth and power gets to write whatever they want in history books whether it is true of false.

The books of the actual prophets (Isaiah till end of OT) should actually read as an addendum that opposes the often popular, but wrong point of view held by the people and those in power.

So yeah, did the ancient Israelites perform evil acts in God's name? Absolutely. Were they punished? Absolutely.

This is why they were removed from the land and taken as captives. Jesus was another prophet who tried to convince them that the ideologies being promoted by the priests in power were evil and did not represent God's point of view. Again just like in the past, he was killed like the rest.

reply to post by Northwarden


Murder is murder, correct.

God was a murderer of humanity.

You don't love him, you FEAR him.

reply to post by ButterCookie


who hates the son of man or better yet who murdered Christ?
did Jesus murder anyone?
where does all human life begin before their blood can be shed?