So, Isn't Satan the Good Guy?

reply to post by GamleGamle


Higher powers? definitely. It seems likely that humans aren't the most advanced in the universe(s). The sun can be argued to be a greater power since it has access to and expends more energy. It all depends on what you mean by higher power.

Omnipotent beings? Not sure. It's definitely possible that intelligent beings that started off as non-omnipotent eventually became so technologically advanced that they can essentially create energy or even use small properties of laws of physics interacted with each other to be able to essentially do anything imaginable even if it seems impossible.

I'll believe technically in whatever makes sense given a chain of logic (so, belief technically = know for me) and might as well believe in things based on that and probability adjusted for reasonable error.

The existence of an Abrahamic God falls into that last category so technically I'm an agnostic but I might as well be an atheist.

Like 1/1000000000 doesn't equal 0 but 1+1/1000000000 for all intents and purposes is 1 and thus 1/1000000000 might as well be 0.

[edit on 3/12/10 by RedDragon]

Not wanting to referee here, but......

Red dragon your arguments i believe are quite valid, but a few asumptions that you make to seal the deal of your argument so to speak seem to be a product of not considering the different subjective experiences from human to human of reality. For example.

"What are you doing here then if you support ignorance?"

Asking a question is just that asking a question, but asking a question with an asumption attached to it corrupts objectivity and most of the time these things happen because a person cannot see another person as equal on a subconscious level.

ON TOPIC

I believe that suffering comes forth out of ignorance, but when adam and eve got their knowledge they were in some ways no longer ignorant. Even so their newfound knowledge lacked integration because they were exposed for the very first time to duality through knowledge. So they were with knowledge still ignorant by lack of understanding.

I use the creation story to make a point. Knowledge can be experienced as bad because we are still ignorant. That is why we do not understand the nature of what men prefere to call god. Therefor christianity is misguided because it does not incorporate everything their is due to a lack of understanding just like all other major religions. This is not bad because out of lack of understanding and the suffering endured comes the desire and conviction to come to greater knowledge and most of all understanding. This desire is not fleeting nor is the reward for following it, because the desire is righthious and full of love.

Ignorance is bliss because their is no need for understanding when we did not have knowledge of anything. ( to stay in the story ) god did not wish upon us the suffering of the struggle to attain a new equilibrium of understanding That rivales the deep tranquill peace we had before aquiring knowledge, but we still took the path. Now all kind of god given forces speed things along so we can all come to understand the true nature of our seemingly dual selfs.

By the way in the end we are all the same being and the whole story i just typed out is nothing more then a reflection of a fractal of the workings of the one based on my quantum reality.

EDiT

okay clear. ( in response to your latest reaction. ) I think that everthing in existence or existence itself has to be infinite in nature or else all of this would not be possible. Considering the infinite nature of everything it is very probable that some freaky things happen along the way, like seeming finity. ( Just rambling. )

If the text above ONTOPIC is not apreciated by the OP i will delete it.
Logic is nice if used as objective as is in your ability it is a doorway to great understanding. Just like believe and acceptance.

[edit on 12-3-2010 by GamleGamle]

[edit on 12-3-2010 by GamleGamle]

[edit on 12-3-2010 by GamleGamle]

Originally posted by trueperspective
reply to post by RedDragon

 

You are confusing ignorance with protection. I do not tell my toddler son the gruesome details about what it means when someone rapes a women. I don't tell him the details of what it means to be molested by a pedophile. Why? It would damge his inocense to know such things!!! All he needs to know is not to talk to strangers and to respect women. I hope to God he never learns first hand some of the things that take place in this world. Man was not meant to know things that could only ever damage their inocense. How can this knowledge benefit anyone.

As I said, it's possible. But you really need to consider that a) God created us b) God keeps us ignorant and tells us it's good for us to be so and thus c) God created us so that our being ignorant is supposedly in our own interest .

It's like us creating robots and then telling them they can't know the truth because it could hurt them... Wouldn't we just program them to be able to handle the truth unless it served our interests to keep them ignorant?

And why does it usually serve a governing (God is a governing power) power's interests to keep people ignorant? (Answer: to deceive)

Originally posted by GamleGamle
Not wanting to referee here, but......

Red dragon your arguments i believe are quite valid, but a few asumptions that you make to seal the deal of your argument so to speak seem to be a product of not considering the different subjective experiences from human to human of reality. For example.

"What are you doing here then if you support ignorance?"

Asking a question is just that asking a question, but asking a question with an asumption attached to it corrupts objectivity and most of the time these things happen because a person cannot see another person as equal on a subconscious level.

What I mean by this is that an ATS motto is to 'Deny ignorance'.

The forbidden fruit gave knowledge. God was against it and thus was an agent of ignorance. Those that support God then support ignorance and so don't belong on ATS for that reason.

So, I meant that as sort of a rhetorical question to make you sit and think.

reply to post by RedDragon


There is knowledge that man was not suppose to know.
Would you give a toddler a loaded gun?The answer is,of
course not.Knowledge man received from the devil was
not for man's own good,but for his downfall.
I am a fundamental,independent baptist.I also listen to a
messianic rabbi about 2-3 times a week.

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by RedDragon

 

There is knowledge that man was not suppose to know.
Would you give a toddler a loaded gun?The answer is,of
course not.Knowledge man received from the devil was
not for man's own good,but for his downfall.
I am a fundamental,independent baptist.I also listen to a
messianic rabbi about 2-3 times a week.

The devil destroys far (he only kills like 2 people, arguably 0) less humans in the Bible than God does (~33 million estimated) and you trust God's advice about what knowledge will destroy you? How do you know that knowledge was a loaded gun? For all you know, isn't the lack of knowledge a loaded gun? Unless you know what the knowledge is, you really can't say.

You pretty much have to go by who seems to have more credibility. I hate to say it but Satan really seems to have more credibility regarding what will destroy me by a factor of 33 million : 2 or 33 million : 1 or 33 million : 0.

All you really know is what side of the ratio you're likely to fall on since that's really the only destruction you can base this on.

The left is the number of humans destroyed in the Bible by God and the right by Satan.

Then there's the train of thought about how if God is a governing power and wants you to live in ignorance, what's our experience with governing powers with-holding information from us? It's pretty much deception.

The more you reason it out for yourself rather than just accept an unreasoned rationale from someone who is definitely a biased party in this , the more the idea of this thread seems to make sense.

on the biased party thing:

it's like listening about why investing in stock A is a good idea from the CEO of stock A - but you're never allowed to see stock A to see it exists, you're not allowed to know what a stock is, you're not allowed to question the CEO or see him or see a photo of him, you're not allowed to know what the company is, you're not allowed to look at the accounting statements, you're not allowed to.. what kind of moron would buy this stock? i don't know because i've never met anyone that stupid but i definitely know that person would PROBABLY lose tons of money in what is probably a scam.

edit:

actually, there is a real life scam like this; the nigerian e-mail scam lol. eg: i'm a nigerian x.. send me some money, trust me!

it just sounds so insanely unbelievable. it's a nigerian scam + worst felony criminal record in history (killed 33 million people) + his enemy is someone who doesn't sound like a nigerian scam and doesn't have a felony criminal record..

human resources people who know which person to hire and those who are smart enough to avoid the nigerian e-mail scams should be saying the same thing here.

i mean, do you at least see what i mean here? if you try out this kind of reasoning in real life, your company will go bankrupt and you will be scammed by every junk e-mail you get, repeatedly. in real life, this reflects the intelligence of the guy who can't afford a date because he spent all his money on penis enlargement pills.

[edit on 3/12/10 by RedDragon]

reply to post by RedDragon


Yes, yes and yes.
I just fail to understand how people don't see it.

Oh goody, let me toss my spoon in the religious pot.

I believe that we are spiritual souls living in a shell making our journey into whatever that may be. We start here and go to??? Who knows, because no one can tell as no one has made the journey so far. For anyone to be "made from a rib" is just pure fantasy written down by those who understood little to nothing about who they were, where they were going and how they'd get there. The bible has been latched onto by many people over the decades and twisted into many things for self serving purposes including business. Which is what religion is, just a business based in a really good work of fiction.


spelling

[edit on 3/12/2010 by mikelee]

reply to post by trueperspective


We don't look kindly to people who we see as being facilitating ignorance you hear. NOW GET. ( sarcasm )

Seriously in the end people will decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong or even go their own way alltogheter discarding dualism.

Hey buddy you are believing in a bad bad god, but you seem quite nice so follow your bliss and your heart and i do not mind your believe system. ( a bit more sarcasm their. )

Do not deny ignorance, facilatate understandig to the best of your capabilities thats what i say.

Originally posted by GamleGamle
reply to post by trueperspective

 

We don't look kindly to people who we see as being facilitating ignorance you hear. NOW GET. ( sarcasm )

Seriously in the end people will decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong or even go their own way alltogheter discarding dualism.

Hey buddy you are believing in a bad bad god, but you seem quite nice so follow your bliss and your heart and i do not mind your believe system. ( a bit more sarcasm their. )

Do not deny ignorance, facilatate understandig to the best of your capabilities thats what i say.

Personally, I believe that right and wrong are whatever you say they are. There's no governing force that makes good the right thing to do or that defines good. Killing a human is in the absolute sense no different than breaking a rock. The reason that I have morals and don't kill people even in the absence of religious belief is that empathy is ingrained in me.

How, why? I don't know. Probably a combination of genetics and sensory input (culture) since it's also present in our evolutionary ancestors and brothers.

[edit on 3/12/10 by RedDragon]

reply to post by RedDragon


Just a bit to consider if you have the time:

Romans 1:18-19 (New International Version)

God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Romans 2:12-16 (New International Version)

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Bold emphasis added.

Consider this about the law:

Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version)

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

John 14:15-20 (New International Version)

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

Even the apostle Paul had this to say about conscience:

Acts 24:16 (New International Version)

16So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

If you read all of this then thank you very much. May you take it to heart and God will bless you.

reply to post by RedDragon


If this were a court of law Satan would be sued for slander, plagiarism, and the wrongful death of every human that has ever lived. He lied when he told Eve that she would not die, and Adam spread death to all men. God has been forced to watch every human that has ever been born, die.

Or so the story goes.

reply to post by dusty1


Only it was God that kicked them out of the Garden of Eden..

My perspective:

Satan gave Adam and Eve the knowledge that God was not some mystical force, that, as self-aware beings, they were equals. Just like Satan considered himself equal and rebelled against God so he didn't have to essentially be a slave.

From then on, it was impossible to keep them imprisoned like we imprison animals as pets. So, they were kicked out of the Prison of Eden. It seems to only be a garden of abundance like a hamster cage has abundant hamster food.

I could really care less even if God is massively superior to us. What do you call a country you live in that requires you to pray to its leader and follow a long laundry list of insane rules? A totalitarian dictatorship.

God is looking like Hitler, Stalin, etc. here. Satan is looking like Thomas Jefferson minus the slaves.

Quite frankly, I value my freedom even it means ending up in Hell. I would never want to end up the equivalent of a house-pet.

As Ben Franklin said, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Safety obviously = Heaven. Though, if God is like he is portrayed in the Bible, Heaven is probably not as its described and Hell is probably a great free place.

If you value freedom, you pretty much have to be anti-God. That Ben Franklin quotation really sounds like something that Satan would say, doesn't it?

If God is such a good guy, why does he fit a checklist of the characteristics of a stereotypical maniac-totalitarian dictator?

Worship me? Check.
Make your life revolve around me? Check.
Mass murder? Check.
Genocide? Check.
Do exactly as I say? Check.
Keep yourself ignorant? Check.
Treat me as if I'm all-powerful and you're nothing but a subordinant? Check.

Satan..
Worship me? No.
Make your life revolve around me? No.
Mass murder? No.
Genocide? No.
Do exactly as I say? No.
Keep yourself ignorant? No.
Educate yourself? Yes.
Treat me as if I'm all-powerful and you're nothing but a subordinant? No.

........


[edit on 3/13/10 by RedDragon]

reply to post by RedDragon


According to the story, God designs and creates:

His only begotten son
other sentient beings
the universe
earth
animals
the garden of eden
the first man
woman (naked I might add)

He gives the man a job, name all the animals, have sex and lots of kids, expand the garden over the whole earth.

Wow, God sounds like a jerk so far, right?

Everything on earth belongs to the man except one tree in the middle of the garden. "Don't eat from it, or you, will, die".

Along comes Satan. He invents something, it's called a lie. "Eat from the tree, disobey God, you won't die".

God kept his word, and cast them from the garden.

Satan knew what he was doing. He stuck it to God, and killed every human that has ever lived.

God has only cut short the life of certain individuals. Unlike the dictators you mentioned God has the power to bring back to life anyone he chooses.


When someone you love dies, you can blame Satan.

God creates, Satan twists creation.

Originally posted by LuxFestinus
reply to post by RedDragon

 

Just a bit to consider if you have the time:

Romans 1:18-19 (New International Version)

God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Romans 2:12-16 (New International Version)

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Bold emphasis added.

Consider this about the law:

Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version)

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

John 14:15-20 (New International Version)

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

Even the apostle Paul had this to say about conscience:

Acts 24:16 (New International Version)

16So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

If you read all of this then thank you very much. May you take it to heart and God will bless you.

Thank you

Ever seen The Devil's Advocate?

Satan himself tells us he is a humanist.

So yes RedDragon, he is actually the good guy.
Since humans have done so well.

reply to post by trueperspective
One day, your toddler will grow up and eventually find out about the gruesome details of the things you mentioned anyways. Maybe God intended for us to eat from the tree but we were clearly not ready yet. Afterall, that's why God abandoned us to the real world.

Although you would not like for your toddler to know the truth, if you were to find out that your toddler found out the truth from another source, would you throw out your toddler out of your house and your protection? No, of course not. Your more caring than god.

reply to post by RedDragon


I totally aggree with you.

It is indeed the empathy that comes natural and feels "good" that drives me to be what i am at least.

I believe the whole heaven and hell, god ans satan, written bible was and is for the most part an analogy. To convey some deeper meaning to existence. Live and death, the hiearchy of the mind.

After that the institution "religion" hashed up the teaching up more so the true meaning of the whole analogy got lost through corruption.

Right or wrong their is a kind of calling in every human being a longing to attain something lost something missing. And their is resistance and fear to keep you from adhearing to the calling. It is all part of the process that is existence.

To understand satan and to understand god is unifying the forces in ones self. Knowing both and making a choiche. Be what you are or dont be what you are that will be your final judgement for this live.

Their is a universal force percieved that governs all things.
Their are those who understand this force to an extent that it empowers them and gives them the need to share the empowering understanding with the world. These great people start to convey to the best of their abilities what they know. Many who lack the personal experience lack understanding. These people need more words and more analogy to make it understandeable.

Now starts the process of making it understandeable to everyone.
By making it understandable to those who lack experience the reality is warped.

This force cannot just be in the eyes of man it has to fit inside the framework of their limited fractured perception. The ego comes into play and demands this force be explained such that it does not threaten its existence and the current understanding of man. It has to be personafied and centered around us.This is how it goes.

( capital letters to emphasise ego. )

The force is not just a force its is OUR GOD.
God looks favorably upon US.
WE ARE the CROWN on HIS creation.
GOD created US in HIS OWN image.

( the sad thing is the above four sentences are true in a sense, but it lacks so much perspective. )

Now their is a problem reality is warped and now we are in a tight package where we cannot unify above sentences with our experienced existence. If all the above is true why dont we feel it as such. Why do we suffer. At this point the unified forces gets divided to acomodate the percieved situation. Our percieved reality is dual so the governing force has to be dual as well. Further centrelisation and twisting.

Their has to be a force that keeps us from walking in the light. OUR GOD MUST have an OPOSSING force. GOD MUST have an ENEMY. But wait even if this was the case OUR all POWERFUL GOD would protect US from the darkness. THEIR CAN BE ONLY ONE explanation we OURSELVES CHOSE to give in to THE DARKNESS. BUT WAIT WE WOULD NEVER DO THAT. WE MUST HAVE BEEN TRICKED. Okay so thats why we are in this situation. But wait again how come we are suffering from mistakes made by people in the past. We must be born in SIN because of the choiches made in the past. The opossing force satan and or the devil has power over us and god allows it as a lesson. It goes on and on and on. Could have made everything capital letter but it would be to much.

And at the end of it all their is mainstream religion and alot more deviant things all corrupted and all. Well that is how it goes. It is what it is.

[edit on 15-3-2010 by GamleGamle]

I have studied the Bible extensively for years so I will try to help out here.

If you will notice in Genesis in the Garden, what mainstream "Christian" religions have today made into "Satan", was simply called "the serpent".

If you look at the name from Genesis in the Garden it is "Nachash" used in reference in both noun and verb. This basically means in noun form - from the Draco Star. Then if you combine it with the verb form, it basically means - the ability to speak, to reason, and to learn.

As Von Daniken once put it, "My God is not the God of the old testament."

Remember for example that when Abraham asks "God" what his name is, he is told it is "El Shaddai" - God Almighty. When Moses asks the same question he is told that it is "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" - "I Will Be What I Will To Be".

This can be explained further by the fact that in the old testament you have the "Elohim" which is the full form of "El". Elohim can refer to plural pagan gods and to both female and male forms of these pagan gods. The name "Ha-Elohim" is "The God".

Finally, the Messiah that the Jews still await (and that Christians today claim is Jesus Christ) was to be called according to the old testament "Emanu-El" - "God Is With Us". However, Jesus Christ's name was in fact "Yeshua" - "Salvation".

In other words, you need to be very careful about taking the Bible and what is now assigned to it certain names as well as in modern religion to simply be "God", "Jesus Christ", "Satan", etc. Scholars and religious leaders simply refer to it as "biblical interpretation".

However, they are simply changing what the Bible actually says. Most of these people are idiots and/or deceivers with ulterior motives. The Bible does not actually say half the things that people claim it does. On this particular issue you need to be very careful about assigning what "Satan" or "God" are. Because there is the religious viewpoint (the one being discussed in this thread), which is just a form of political control, and then there is what is actually written in the Bible, which is something entirely different.

So to fully understand this issue in this discussion, you need to separate the religious God and Satan from what is actually written in the scriptures.

Not a good thing at all more or less an EMOTIONAL CREATURE WHO BITE THE HAND THAT FED IT.....thats bout all I got to say. Other then SATAN IS AN ANGEL SMH