Large Hadron Collider to be shut down for a year, due to mistakes made in construction.

reply to post by Majestic RNA


No wonder half of the E.U is bankrupt.

This is a blow.

Sometimes in science, knowing when to pull the plug on an idea is a very valuable thing.
I wonder how long it will be before the contributing parties start crunching numbers and rattling their purses?

reply to post by Majestic RNA


Never mind the money wasted, what about the woman who was ridiculed for trying to stop it? What were the reasons again? Oh i remember now End of the world. S&F for the post

reply to post by Majestic RNA


I have mixed feeling about the LHC. I think that the pursuit of knowledge in the scientific world is very important, but I also wonder if what we discover will benefit mankind or be the end of mankind. This is not like pursuing new medicines or pursuing cures for diseases. This has much more serious consequences if we screw up. I think back to the development of the atom bomb and the repercusions that has had on the world (Hiroshima, Nagasaki). I am sure that making a devastating weapon was not the initial reason the scientists had in the experiment of atomic energy, but as usual there is always those interested in making a weapon. I feel the same thing will happen with anything discovered with LHC experiments. We may think that the LHC will bring us things like free energy and space-time travel, etc etc, but in the end it will be used as a jumping stone to produce a weapon.
I do not blame the scientific community for these things, but when there is this much money involved one has to wonder where that money is coming from? Is there any documents on who the major contributors are for this project?

[edit on 10-3-2010 by nepafogo]

reply to post by nepafogo


Couldnt have put it better myself.
As for the funding this could be from anywhere or anyone. How about charity events for famines etc. Its obvious that considering the amount of money donated to Africa in the past they are still no further ahead than they were 10 years ago.

[edit on 10-3-2010 by jazz10]

Originally posted by jazz10
Its obvious that considering the amount of money donated to Africa in the past they are still no further ahead than they were 10 years ago.

Except that there we know where the missing money goes. Into the pockets of Africa's governments (not all I know) and those that siphon money from the charities.

Originally posted by Majestic RNA
not sure if there are any outside influences, they just messed up IMO..

I'm not certain that there are outside influences either, I'm just saying that I am slightly suspicious that a large group consisting of some of the smartest people on the planet keep making so many mistakes.

Yes the technology gained from this will probably be used to develop new weapons, that is a risk you have to accept for the possible progress. Besides seeing as we already have nukes anything else warhead based would be largely inconsequential.

Really even if the cost is starting to hurt I think we are at a point where we have gone so far that we are committed to continuing. It would be better to spend a billion more and gets results than to give up and let the billiosn already spent go to waste.

-Cauch1

I believe that something entirely opposite is happening. They are telling the public that they are delaying the program, but in fact are secretly continuing the project.

The only way they can continue building a black hole that will eat us up in 2012 is in secret. Isn't it obvious.

Well I'm just kidding, but you never know. I mean what are they going to do with the 1000's of scientist working on the project are they now unemployed. Doubt it.

AFP are now reporting the LHC will be ramped up to 7 TeV in late march or early april...

This conflicts with the BBC report at the start of this thread...

Wonder what the go with this is

reply to post by boaby_phet


Sigh.. ok first off I did read the article through from start to finish and I’m fully aware what the problems are, like many on ATS I’ve followed the CERN project from the off, at no point did I say it was a problem with the high tech machinery, and I’m sorry but you’re the joke if you think money hasn’t been wasted on this project, a solder joint failure cost £24m, and now the copper sheaths around the superconducting joints in the tunnel are in need of strengthening if they want to run the LHC up to full power, there’s no estimate as of yet how much this is going to cost, but I would take an educated guess it’s going to be in the millions. Let me put this into perspective for you, I work in the mechanical engineering department in a power station, if we made mistakes of this nature when commissioning new never used before plant we would lose hundreds of life’s if something went wrong, it doesn’t happen because we commission it in such a way mistakes like a solder joint failure or a part needing strengthening is thought about, tested and double tested before the plant is run, they simply haven’t done this otherwise they wouldn’t have had the problems they’ve had would they, this current problem is a FAILSAFE MECHANISM, this should have been thought about well in advance of the initial commission but they didn’t and it’s going to cost more money.. That to me points towards a waste of money!!

In the future boaby_phet I’ll post whatever I dam well please whether it’s negative or not in your opinion, my OP title was taken from the BBC website, and I wasn’t spouting off at all, IMO they have wasted money on this project, If you don’t want to believe that, fine whatever… but don’t attack me for being the messenger and my opinion they’ve spent money in their errors because it’s a fact they’ve messed up and it’s cost them millions!

Note to the people that want to bash me for this thread, you cannot in any way shape or form deny the fact CERN have so far spent £24m correcting a problem that should never have happened, I stand by my OP, they messed up and it’s cost them, that’s a waste of money that could have been avoided had they tested all solder joints fully… now this new problem has come to light it would seem it’s adding insult to injury.





[edit on 10-3-2010 by Majestic RNA]

urgh thats just annoying. anyone know if theyll be able to find anything at 7 trillion volts? Otherwise, then that one in america i think it it will props overtake it.

I've worked it out...duh *smacks head*

They're going to shut it down for a year cos its damaged, but before they do, they're going to crank it up to 7 TeV just for laughs...

Hmmmm...If its sufficiently damaged it has to be closed down for 12 months, why the hell would they crank it up so high ?

Doesn't sound too clever to me...

reply to post by Retrovertigo


The atom smasher will reach world record collision energies later this month at 7 trillion electron volts. But joints between the machine's magnets must be strengthened before higher-energy collisions can commence

The LHC at it's full power can reach 14TeV, they are strengthening the joints before they go full power for safety measures, to my mind they should have taken this into account in the original commission not after it’s up and running…

reply to post by Majestic RNA


Absolutely...

Why not build it fully to spec in the first instance ? Obviously they knew they'd be going to 14 TeV at some point and it seems pretty stupid not to build the thing to handle that in the first place...

reply to post by Retrovertigo

Agreed, and that's why I say they have wasted money on this project, some don't seem to see this though...

[edit on 10-3-2010 by Majestic RNA]

reply to post by Majestic RNA


Yes I saw some of those posts in the thread

Its pure logic that it would have been cheaper to build it to full spec in the first instance than to make expensive repairs down the track...

Therefore they have wasted money on this thing...

And you, my friend are 100% correct in your assertion

reply to post by Majestic RNA



oooh handbags!

if its from the bbc site how come thats also where i got ALL my information on what their actualy going ala the 7Tev start up and dark matter experiments.

i dont care what you post dude, but just get the story 100% ah and not start another topic where someone bashes something they dont understand for reasons they dont really understand, yes, bits need welded and copper needs sealed, but really, do we know what that means... no.

They did build it from the start with the intentions of reaching 14 Tev, they just built it wrong. Its not like they built it for less and have decided to upgrade it, rather they ommitted things in the first build that they shouldn't have (ironically it was probably for cost-saving purposes).

-Cauch1

Originally posted by boaby_phet
reply to post by Majestic RNA

 

the problem they have at the moment is NOT with any of the high tech machinery , it is with copper sheaths/plates which are used to conduct the electricity if their is a problem so they dont get more quenches (the problem that shut the LHC down before)

now, their is not 100% a problem, cern just want to be safe ! and they cant really be blamed for that.

to say they are wasting money is a joke, as they have not shut down the LHC, their current plan is that they have changed what they are experimenting for, instead of looking for the higgs, which they theorise requires the full power, they are going to do experiments in looking for dark energy/dark matter, as these experiments can be done at the 7Tev power they can have safely just now, once this experiment is finished, they are going to turn it off and fix/touch up all the copper bits and other odds and ends they want reinforced before it is turned back on and cranked up to the full 14 Tev needed to start on the particle experiments again!

please, in the future, instead of just posting the negative, like a newspaper does to attract readers, how about you actualy read/listen to the story and hear what you are being told instead of just spouting off when theirs a wealth of knowlage on this subject already!

>>> Oh that 's ok then ... what you're basically saying is that we shouldn't be paranoid because the problem is something superficial !!!

So if they can't get the superficial stuff sorted out how the hell can they expect to be on top of the 'technical' stuff as you so quaintly call it ... I know let's throw a few more million at it that'll do the trick.

Who cares if the planet goes down the pan finacially at least will have an 'almost' fully working collider. Yep I can see the logic in that ... pathetic.

Woody

reply to post by Cauch1


OK cool, thanks for that info

Still I find it ridiculous they'd cut costs on initial construction knowing they'd have to upgrade it later...

I mean obviously that's going to cost more than building it "properly" in the first instance...

Follow the money is generally good counsel. Shutting down for a year after revving up to huge levels sounds like compromise between those who are mad about science and their grants and those who are afraid to die. Some scary effect, perceived to have been caused by the LHC booting up, has scattered the faithful back to the drawing boards after reaching compromise with the do or die crowd to boot up one last time.

reply to post by woodwytch


luckily, none of their high technical components are in need of repair, its mainly just the construct of the machnie, not the fiddly bits.. actualy, im not gonna explain, how abotu we read the actual article itself!

news.bbc.co.uk...
The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) must close at the end of 2011 for up to a year to address design issues, according to an LHC director.

Dr Steve Myers told BBC News the faults will delay the machine reaching its full potential for two years.

The atom smasher will reach world record collision energies later this month at 7 trillion electron volts.

But joints between the machine's magnets must be strengthened before higher-energy collisions can commence.

The Geneva-based machine only recently restarted after being out of action for 14 months following an accident in September 2008.

Dr Myers said: "It's something that, with a lot more resources and with a lot more manpower and quality control, possibly could have been avoided but I have difficulty in thinking that this is something that was a design error."

He said: "The standard phrase is that the LHC is its own prototype. We are pushing technologies towards their limits."

"You don't hear about the thousands or hundreds of thousands of other areas that have gone incredibly well.

"With a machine like the LHC, you only build one and you only build it once."
CMS detector
The CMS detector can be put through its paces at reduced power

He said the second problem is not with the most complex technology but involves the copper sheaths around the superconducting joints in the tunnel.

The copper sheaths are a failsafe mechanism designed to take up the current if one of the magnets in the Large Hadron Collider warms up - an incident known as a "quench".

The 2008 accident caused one tonne of helium to leak into the tunnel and resulted in a series of "quenches" and a 40m Swiss franc (£24m) repair bill.

Engineers believe the machine is now safe to run at 7 trillion electron volts (TeV) but are anxious to avoid another breakdown.

So they have taken the decision to run the machine for 18 to 24 months at half-maximum power before switching it off for a year to carry out improvements to the 27km tunnel.

Dr Myers said the decision was taken jointly with the physicists working on the four giant particle detectors on the LHC.

He said they appreciate the chance to test their own equipment while the machine is running at half its maximum power.

Collisions at enormous energy

The Large Hadron Collider sends beams of protons in opposite directions around the tunnel at close to the speed of light. These cross and collide, smashing into each other with enormous energy.

The ultimate aim is to collide particles head on at 14TeV to recreate the conditions in the moments after the Big Bang.

Scientists hope they will see new subatomic particles in the debris and gain insights into how the universe came into being, billions of years ago.

The machine is buried 100m below the French-Swiss border.

Cern officials say running the LHC at 7TeV will enable physicists to explore another secret of the universe, namely the nature of the "dark matter" that accounts for most of the mass in the observable universe.

their is also a video on that page ....

Deny the old one dudes!