Seriously.... Who IS a Jew?

There seems to have been a lot of talk relating to this issue on ATS lately, so I tried to find the most balanced perception and provide a link on this issue.

However, before I get into the link I will tell you my view on the issue.

I do not oppose the existence of the state of Israel. It is acceptable under international law, but I am adamantly opposed to their policies and their continuing genocide against the Arabs of the Middle East (And the rest of the world through Psy-Ops, When was the last time you saw an Arab as a protagonist in any blockbuster, or Christ, anything really....
And before you say "Harold and Kumar", think about the irony in that statement).

I have posted several times in several other threads that practicing Judaism and being a race are two completely separate things.

Being a Jew means that one practices a religion. It does not in any way nada, zilch, no way denote race.

Here is a snippet from a story written by a Christian Israeli Dissident.

“After all, how difficult can it be?
Let’s make a state law for that and everything will be fine!” Thinking in such a way and without checking the issue, the Knesset, Israel's Parliament, legislated the Law of Return On July 5, 1950.
The law gives automatic citizenship upon landing in the state to those born Jews (having a Jewish mother or maternal grandmother), those with Jewish ancestry (having a Jewish father or grandfather) and converts to Judaism (Orthodox, Reform, or Conservative denominations, though the last two must take place outside the state since these currents are not recognized by the Chief Rabbinate).
The day after, the confused cleaning lady of the Knesset asked the Prime Minister: “Who is a Jew?” Annoyed, the Prime Minister exiled her to Zambia and forgot her question. Until this day it remains unanswered and at the very heart of the State of Israel.
Simply, it doesn’t differentiate between the ethnic group and the religion. Each one of these categories is open to different interpretations. Under certain interpretations, many millions of Muslims in Afghanistan and nearby Central Asian locations could ask for Israeli citizenship and transform the human landscape of Israel overnight.
The political leadership of the state is very careful not to touch this law anymore and to delegate personal issues (birth, marriage, death and in fact all religious matters) to the Chief Rabbinate.

It’s a boiling potato.

Even in Israel many citizens do not understand the issue properly.
Israel likes to portray itself as a Western country, but its foundations are deep within Asia. There are two basic models upon which nations are based. One is territorial, claiming a country exists in a given territory; this is the situation in the Americas and Europe (the last may be changing, see the ugly treatment of Muslims in France).

The second is ethnic, claiming a nation is formed by individuals belonging to a given ethnic group. Many Asians countries belong to this category; Thailand is a good example. The early Thai kingdoms were almost nomadic in nature, moving slowly southwards from Xishuangbanna – in Yunnan, China – to Thailand’s actual location. These kingdoms were defined not by territory but by the people composing them. It is so to such an extreme, that only in 1913, the significant Chinese minority got citizenship.
By legislating the Law of Return, the State of Israel placed itself among this group of ethnic nations. It could have worked if it wasn’t for one tiny detail:

“Who is a Jew?”

It's a religion people. Playing the race card in defense of Israel ain't gonna work anymore.
Link to the Source


[edit on 3/8/2010 by Josephus23]

Theres a great debate about a similar topic as this, if you read through the post on this thread i made a while ago, there were many ruffled feathers ove the jew/race dilemma.

6 to 1 half dozen the other for me.

I have no authority to make any determinations but I find it curious that there are books on the subject one can buy on amazon and elsewhere, obviously written by a tribe member. If you can find a copy of the talmud, it would tell you also. If you read it, you find there's no controversy of who is and who is not. Look at the written works and all you really see is an obsession with 'law'. Why is there any controversy now and here? Either one has been diverted from finding out the simple details or is uninterested in finding out for themselves Thousands of years have gone by to work things out so it's conterintuitive that a tribal affiliation that's persisted for this amount of time and this amount of intensity while untold numbers of tribes and nations have faded into extinction is in any way confused about what constitutes membership. The problem is what do make of a group that has such beliefs when they are essentially at odds and in eventual conflict with christian culture. Much of the problem we're having to live through is by accepting other cultural influences to interpret our laws and pass judgment on our own cultural beliefs, which can only end in chaos. Culture is merely the filter by which club member interpret reality, so significant differences in perception, and therefore response, are possible.
While the christian bible is passed free out to anyone who'd want one, other books which describe the foundations for other beliefs focused in the mideast remain essentially a restricted or indecipherable item, and even if translations are made readily available, they are automatically discounted as imprecise and the context misunderstood. Christian oriented cultures have grown lazy and chose or encouraged to believe that everyones religions or tribal affiliations kinda believe the same basic stuff and all want to just get along and chill, but if you understand human nature and human history, the more one seeks orthodoxy to any group the more by necessity they discount others and see them only as a resource for exploitation. The bigger, real problem is what makes an american, because the hebrew tribe has survived for millenia, while the american 'race' is facing real and likely inevitable extinction after only a few centuries. When this happens, take a guess as to who'll still be there...

[edit on 8-3-2010 by thatredpill]

[edit on 8-3-2010 by thatredpill]

[edit on 8-3-2010 by thatredpill]

reply to post by Josephus23


Regardless of what we might believe, any deception we feel took place these are mothers, fathers, sons and daughters and we must never lose sight of that fact.

They want to divide us.
They want to pit us against each other to control us.
Divide and conquer. Order through Chaos.

The mysterious THEY who are trying to control us- is anyone at all who keeps you from hugging your brother.

At least for me, the similarities between human cultures are overwhelming compared to the differences (I must be seriously brain-damaged.) Pagans worshipped God as the Sun and Christians refer to the messiah as the Son of God, or the light of the world. The (classic) Mayans didn't just make a calendar, they lived by the creed of "I am another You." So for someone to say "I hate Jews" to me sounds like "I hate yous" (again, I'm just speaking from my 'dead zone' here) and should probably be medicated.

I've taken classes in religion and though I'm not an expert on Judaism I do know that of the three Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), Judaism has the distinction of being the only one that does not demand that non-members convert. Also, recent archaeological discoveries in the Middle East (still looking for sources; it was in Yahoo news recently) date the nation of Israel back to around 10,000 BC. For believers in Atlantis (or whatever you'd call a worldwide civilization of the One before the SHTF last time), this makes modern (since 10,000 BC) Israel seem more like the last vestiges of something much more that despite all the chaos of the past age simply refuses to keel over and die.

As all races, religions, and people are flawed and make mistakes, it's human nature (so long as the ego rules) to say "they started it", and Israel has, as the previous poster pointed out, been around by far the longest. Personally, I don't see these three faiths as being in conflict, just trying to tell different parts of the same story. It seems, however, that it would take a pole shift (if only in the mind, but likely on Earth physically) to make people wake up and stop acting like a cancer of the planet and more like the caretakers of the garden as (I believe) we were meant to.

reply to post by thatredpill


First, I would like to say thank you for all of the well thought out responses.

I must, however, point to some controversies in what you said. Especially regarding the Talmud.

Judaism only has one text of law, which was divinely revealed to Moses by God, and it is known as the Torah.

When Jews finally became somewhat prominent citizens in Rome two "opposing" sides developed:
The pharicees and the sadducces.

And the rift between the two was a result of.... None other than the Talmud.

The Talmud is as hate filled as the qur'an (unless, that is, you finding that boiling Jesus in a vat of hot sperm isn't quite ruthless enough to qualify as hate.)

Jesus founded the Christian church as a response against these pharicees and sadducees.
Thus, the hatred regarding him as King of the Jews.

So back to my original point.

Being Jewish is as simple as converting. That's it.
It is the exact same as every other religion in that way.
JEWS ARE NOT A RACE OF PEOPLE. Stop listening to the propaganda.

JEWS PRACTICE JUDAISM. THAT IS ALL. NO RACE ANYTHING IS INVOLVED.



EDIT I:

But anyway...

I gave you a star theredpill because, even if i don't agree with your response 100%, I am highly appreciative of people who can discuss this without the normal racist BS.

You obviously put a good bit of effort into that response, either collectively over time or intensely at once, and I highly respect that in you.

[edit on 3/8/2010 by Josephus23]

reply to post by rusethorcain


This mysterious THEY that every one is talking about is the mystery schools of Babylon.

They claim to be the oldest religion.

Bill Cooper did a great expose on these guys by way of short wave radio back in the 90's. People will try to discredit him, but all I will say is take a listen for yourself.

And judge for yourself.

They infiltrated Judaism to produce division and conflict. The Pharicees and the Saducess.
They fractured Christianity into a million pieces, and created the Sunni, Shiite conflict that has claimed millions upon millions of innocents.

They want ZION, The want all of the land in between the two rivers. LOOK AT THE ISRAELI FLAG.

This is a hard pill to swallow, but please for a second, realize that we are IMMERSED in a propaganda matrix and those with the money have the power.

And those with the power eventually win.

Link to Bill Coopers 40 hours of Mystery Babylon





[edit on 3/9/2010 by Josephus23]

Originally posted by Josephus23
reply to post by thatredpill

 

First, I would like to say thank you for all of the well thought out responses.

I must, however, point to some controversies in what you said. Especially regarding the Talmud.

Judaism only has one text of law, which was divinely revealed to Moses by God, and it is known as the Torah.

When Jews finally became somewhat prominent citizens in Rome two "opposing" sides developed:
The pharicees and the sadducces.

And the rift between the two was a result of.... None other than the Talmud.

The Talmud is as hate filled as the qur'an (unless, that is, you finding that boiling Jesus in a vat of hot sperm isn't quite ruthless enough to qualify as hate.)

Jesus founded the Christian church as a response against these pharicees and sadducees.
Thus, the hatred regarding him as King of the Jews.

So back to my original point.

Being Jewish is as simple as converting. That's it.
It is the exact same as every other religion in that way.
JEWS ARE NOT A RACE OF PEOPLE. Stop listening to the propaganda.

JEWS PRACTICE JUDAISM. THAT IS ALL. NO RACE ANYTHING IS INVOLVED.



EDIT I:

But anyway...

I gave you a star theredpill because, even if i don't agree with your response 100%, I am highly appreciative of people who can discuss this without the normal racist BS.

You obviously put a good bit of effort into that response, either collectively over time or intensely at once, and I highly respect that in you.

[edit on 3/8/2010 by Josephus23]

I've tried reading the talmud but it's so mordant and extensive and byzantine and intellectually manipulative that it's really a work for the entitlement oriented obsessive compulsive and in my analysis intended to provide justification for perceptions not based on claimed priorites, I've read that there are various unkind things in it regarding nonjews, and as any work of cultural prerogative not intended to be shared outside the group, I dont expect it's any less kind to infidels than the queeran, which as a work of logic borders on the psychotically abusive.
I have no animus for the hebrew tribe, they are, in spite of their small numbers far out of proportion among the worlds most prominent people, and by comparison, eclipse what number of shining stars there may be of other tribes or races. This cannot be accidental by reasonable statistics, even if there is a fair amount of tribal chauvanism.
If there is a physical tendency for preeminance among the hebrews such as they define themselves and hold within the tribe their group identity so fiercely, it suggests that the combination of capacity and unavoidable abberence of human nature that those with an innate capacity to do greater good than others, can be also as equipped to be just as prolific in the other estreme. That said, I agree that the hebrews are not a race, even though they are still fairly distinct as a group. I agree that jews can practice judaism, but there is the tribal overlay so theres both a voluntary as well as an involuntary component to be dealth with. SOmehow, theres an attempt at a synthesis of race and tribal belief

reply to post by thatredpill


I agree with you and I am beginning to understand exactly what you meant.

Although I will say that modern Jewry almost desperately claims the modern banking system (at least the Ashkenazim) as one of their collection of inventions that furthered our civilization's movement toward novelty. Speaking in pure numbers they are a culture that has produced an inordinate number of groundbreaking novelties.

BTW... Leornado de Fibonacci is responsible for the modern banking system (as in Fibonacci's spiral; however, maybe he is a Jew)

I think that evolutionarily unique mutations and survival mechanisms would have surely developed throughout the ages due to Jews focus on marriage laws. The focus on the mothers DNA tends to lessen the chance of recessive traits.

I will give them their props. No Doubt. That is why I said that I am not "anti-Semitic", but it would be ignoring the big pile of dung in the room if we were to not talk about the most wealthy of Jewry, those calling the shots, whom have intermarried into the aristocratic bloodline of royalty.

That leads to TOO much recessive gene expression due to exclusivity and possible inbreeding. (I don't know if the latter is true, but it was common practice until as recently as 100 years ago.)

Something is not right. Their genocide of the Arabs is SYSTEMATIC and they claim to be the most evolved humans.

This could all end in a very ugly way.

reply to post by Josephus23


You have some very interesting and even valid points here Joe. (I could not watch all those hours of tape but enough to catch the drift) I have to say that regardless, this is not a problem or situation that is going to be solved or soothed by more accusatory rhetoric, hatred and racism piled on.
That is like scratching an open wound.

Within every group there are innocents, children, religious captives, who are not your enemy and if you stir up a pot of hatred and it boils over onto them - their death is on your hands.

Blanket accusations are dangerous.

We need to act with wisdom and compassion and not anger (justified or not) or you will make an already bad situation much worse.

Just keep your head a little longer and this is all going to work itself out.

reply to post by rusethorcain


You are 100% correct star.

This thread has actually made me feel like I am finally making this message palatable for some people.

I have been slandered with every pejorative known to man on every post discussing Jews here on ATS, and I got sick of it, because it is all due to ignorance.
The Jews have created something very unique in their adherence to custom, their inter-generational focus, and their adamant self-determination, but that has absolutely nothing to do with DNA; however, for some reason, maybe because of the Bible's claim of the Jews as God's chosen people, the tribe of Israelites currently occupying the Middle East in violation of international law have gone haywire and try to make others feel as if they are genetically superior.

It's the customs people; not the DNA.

These freaks who have hijacked Judaism collectively suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder coupled with Narcissistic Personality Disorder demonstrated with complete negative valence regarding the expression of their most base traits. They are collectively akin to the most savage of violent criminals.
They are a tribe of psychopathic individuals who will stop at nothing to rebuild Zion, the land between the rivers (thus the flag). The star of David has not a darn thing to do with true Torah Judaism.

The mystery schools infiltrated Judaism and they are using it as cause to destroy the world for their own selfish pleasure.

Jews who can read this, and have a heart, look what your country is doing to other people. People who have kids and go to work and come home to a family just like you.

The collective policies of the Crown, the US, the Vatican, and Israel MUST BE STOPPED BY SIMPLE NON-COMPLIANCE.

Violence is not necessary, only a conscience and the willingness to just not do it.

Shalom.

Jesus Of Nazareth.....

reply to post by freetree64


I am kind of puzzled by this comment.

Would you mind further explaining what you meant by the post please?

reply to post by Josephus23


It is a simple answer to the thread question, as viewed from the board, I do however realize that you are digging deeper into the question, in regards to the religion of Judaism, However I felt compelled to keep my answer simple and to the point, I do not know why. I of course get that this is illogical, and not in keep ing with the discussion, however, I have noticed that most of these threads turn into more hate filled dialogue than anything else, and did not wish to be involved in such. I do hope that is not where this goes, and that it is page after page of intelligent discussion. I for now, state, as I did originally, according to history, and my faith, Jesus Of Nazareth was born of Jewish lineage. I hope that helps, good day sir.

reply to post by freetree64


Actually, We cannot say that he was born of any lineage because his birth was not due to female/male consummation.

His DNA may have been made of tree frogs dancing to "hello my baby".

We have NO IDEA.

I believe that I get what you are trying to say, but I good sir am a true researcher (not the kind with just the name/title here at ATS) at a Psychology research university in the state of Georgia, and we always stick by one rule that gets EVERYBODY at one time or another.

Correlation IS NOT Causation

Am I hitting home with you?
Or am I totally off base, and if so, could you please explain how?

Thank you for acknowledging the fact that I am going out of my way to keep this intelligent with NO HATE.
Star for that aspect of your comment.

[edit on 3/9/2010 by Josephus23]

Originally posted by Josephus23
reply to post by thatredpill

 

I agree with you and I am beginning to understand exactly what you meant.

Although I will say that modern Jewry almost desperately claims the modern banking system (at least the Ashkenazim) as one of their collection of inventions that furthered our civilization's movement toward novelty. Speaking in pure numbers they are a culture that has produced an inordinate number of groundbreaking novelties.

BTW... Leornado de Fibonacci is responsible for the modern banking system (as in Fibonacci's spiral; however, maybe he is a Jew)

I think that evolutionarily unique mutations and survival mechanisms would have surely developed throughout the ages due to Jews focus on marriage laws. The focus on the mothers DNA tends to lessen the chance of recessive traits.

I will give them their props. No Doubt. That is why I said that I am not "anti-Semitic", but it would be ignoring the big pile of dung in the room if we were to not talk about the most wealthy of Jewry, those calling the shots, whom have intermarried into the aristocratic bloodline of royalty.

That leads to TOO much recessive gene expression due to exclusivity and possible inbreeding. (I don't know if the latter is true, but it was common practice until as recently as 100 years ago.)

Something is not right. Their genocide of the Arabs is SYSTEMATIC and they claim to be the most evolved humans.

This could all end in a very ugly way.

It will end ugly because the rules of getting along are not in play and the rules of transformation are in play. There are many layers to the situation and any one affects the others. Most fail to comprehend the dynamic nature of things, and focus on the one or two that are most pressing to them at the time.
We had a successful trending culture, and the arrogance of the success led to trying to ignore the basics for some unrealistic agenda. Unrealistic agendas will fail, and the greater emphasis on beating a round peg into a square hole damages tboth the hole and the peg. Essentially two or more cultures with different definitions of what is just and what the outcome should be can't coexist. I'm of the opinion that a nation has to be true to its' ideals, and that's what borders are for. One cannot attempt to put the cloak of their vision of universal godliness on themselves and obtain universal anything. To solve any problem one has to avoid accepting components that dont work in real life. History shows what works with humans and what never does. Emigration to new lands without assimilation is invasion. I'd suggest that one fix ones own problems before nosing into other involvements. A society has to learn how to be self sufficient to survive peacefully or reconcile themselves to imperialism. The middle east cultures are imperialistic by doctrine, there have never been enough resources to live off the resources within their borders and they both are looking for somewhere to resettle profitably. No outsider, however pleasant and accomodating, if not assimilating to their host land, will have the host priorities as their goals. Anyone that claims this is not telling all and can't be unquestioningly trusted, no matter what tribute and promises they may provide at the outset. As far as conflicts between outside parties, it will be proven that taking sides and involving yourself where there is no clear threat and no clear gains, just gets you into a place you can't successfully get out of and will perish if you chose wrongly. As far as the various middle east tribes, best to let them fight it out on their territory and us defend against any resultant threat than to take one side in and find they dont have all of your bests interests at heart. Best to watch with interest but stay out of other families squabbles.

reply to post by thatredpill


Agreed 100%. Star.

You know....
It is almost as if the religious doctrines of Talmudic Judaism, Reformed Christianity, and modern Islam based in abrogation were all DESIGNED for war.

The mystery schools want this to happen.

Ordo ab Chao, and we are so intrinsically involved that it will take a true "act of God" to stop the madness.

I personally wish that we could clone Thomas Jefferson, the biggest isolationist President in this country's very short, and almost destroyed, history.

We, as in the level headed people on both sides of the Israel issue, need to step up in all the threads full of hate here on ATS and start informing people of the truth, but with sympathy and compassion and with a velvet hammer shall we say.

It is ALL OF OUR jobs to do WHATEVER WE CAN to stop this eternal cycle.

We are at war with a small group of psychopaths who will stop at nothing to accomplish their goal of world domination and they are using the cause of the Jewish people (among several others) to hide their true agenda.
Peaceful non-compliance is the ONLY way to win.

Inshallah.

The question of "who is a jew?" as asked by the OP can easily be answered the same way as when Adolf asked the same question before WW2........check the census records.....you religion is stated on there!

reply to post by Melbourne_Militia


Please excuse me, but I have to call you out on the non-sequitur association of Hitler with the question posed in my original post.

I am in no way trying talk down to you, but seemingly innocuous comments, such as yours, spark heated irrational arguments and I WILL NOT have that in this thread.

Otherwise, feel free to comment and please add to the mix, but in a respectful way as not to goad anyone into an angry response.

Thank you good sir and have a fantastic day.

Inshallah.

Actually, We cannot say that he was born of any lineage because his birth was not due to female/male consummation.




Hah! the lineage question is the great unknown, I mean, if we are looking for lineage based on the bible, then we are all related to adam and all related to noah, one asks why there was a branch of any significance. I always am puzzled by peoplse reactions to a question I pose regarding group liability and group benefits. It is said by some that the jews or the romans killed jesus. I always say Which ones were there that speak for those that had no association, I mean the romans in rome minding their own business, or the jew in some other city that had no knowledge of this radical upstart rebbe. How does one assign blame for their own actions upon others without any accountability other than accident of heredity, which may well have made other choices?
Your 'as allah wills it' closings suggests that you've facility with the qweran than I. If so and not simply a gratuitous wave at ecumenicalism, I mean, wtf, sunni vs shia? I t seems to me really just about a lineage issue of who gets more precedence based on lineage, and more snaps, again? Cleverly jesus made no such ignorant and intrinsically flawed worldly adherence to heredity as his doctrine. If for no other reason, this attempt to prevent a new cycle of predatory heredity based automatic privilege suggests more supernatural insight than most any other major faith. The others seem to me to merely try to form a new multilevel marketing scheme intended to keep them and theirs automatically at the top of the heap, and as such nothing more than manipulation of the masses, a religious version of amway and nothing more holy than that.




[edit on 9-3-2010 by thatredpill]