9/11 BOMB when 1st plane hit!

Originally posted by lea room
Is it not possible that a fireball would travel down the elivator shaft? That would definatly create an explosion in the lobby and the basement.

Yes, it would not be possible. And no, it would not "definatly" create an explosion in the lobby.


There are a number of reasons for this. For one thing the elevator shafts were made of drywall, which would be exploded itself before it would channel such destructive overpressures elsewhere.

For another thing the LOWER LEVEL elevator shafts were blown out, that went to the basements, NOT the ones that serviced the upper floors, of which there were not many that went continuously that far anyway.

Originally posted by impressme
Isn’t it rather odd these OS Trusters depend on Rodriguez testimony when it can benefit them to try and discredit people who are looking for truth

No, they use his testimony before he changed it to better promote his public speaking/money making

Yet, when the Truthers bring up William Rodriguez name they are scoffed at, by the OS Trusters who always claim that Rodriguez cannot keep his story straight and that he is only in the 911 movement to make money.

Very true, he did change his story - a point the "truthers" ignore as it destroys their conspiracy!

So which is it Alfie1, GoodOlDave is William Rodriguez testimony credible?

Before he changed it - probably yes.

Originally posted by dereks
Before he changed it - probably yes.

I love this question.


So can you post Rodriguez's original testimony, then what he "changed" it to, and what the differences between the two are?


This always comes out to be differences between words like "pounding" and "exploding" or other nonsense that doesn't warrant being accused of changing anything in the first place.

Originally posted by impressme
So which is it Alfie1, GoodOlDave is William Rodriguez testimony credible?

Talk about two OS Trusters flip flopping on eyewitness testimony.
Fist William Rodriguez is not credible now he is, I love it.

I bet they wont answer my question.

...and you lose your bet. You know, I can't recall a single debate you and I have had where you were actually shown to to be correct on anything.

I have never said that Rodriguez was lying. His statements concerning what he personally felt and what he personally saw are things I can certainly believe are credible. The problem I have with his testimony is with the parts that there'd be no way he could ever know. It's clear he believes the explosion he felt above him was from the impact, and he uses that assumption to presume the explosion he felt below him was before the impact. Problem is, he was down in the basement when the planes hit so there's no physical way, shape, or form how he'd know whether a particular explosion was before, during, or after the impact. Moreover, he himself admits that the force from the fireball made its way all the way down to the basement where he was, meaning that there's no way that it can be ruled out that he's gotten it backwards. The only way you can discount this is if you claim he's lying about the flames from the impact reachign the basement.

This is the difference between you and me. I listen to all of what all the witnesses say and try to determine a scenario from it. YOU will pick your favorite scenario first...and we both know what THAT is...and then you'll pick and choose what witnesses listen to and which ones to ignore. In cases like Rodriguez, you both listen to him AND ignore him. Did you ever actually comment on Rodriguez seeing one of the (according to you) nonexistant hijackers casing out the WTC shortly before 9/11?

William Rodriguez sees a 9/11 hijacker in the WTC

Whatever your true motives are, trying to find out the truth of 9/11 certainly isn't it.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Part Two:


Well Dave, if you take what William Rodriguez word as true as you claim then I guess everything else he has said is true as well don’t you think.
This make you a Truther Dave.

Originally posted by lea room
Is it not possible that a fireball would travel down the elivator shaft? That would definatly create an explosion in the lobby and the basement.

No, because heat and fire travel up.

Originally posted by thedman
Truth is were several elevators. passenger and freight which ran entire
building from basement to top

Thedman posts the above claim and then posts this from NIST:

There were seven freight elevators, only one of which served all floors.

So which is it, thedman? Is it several or one because NIST says one? You people really have some nerve complaining about the truthfulness of the truth movement when you can't even keep your own facts straight, and even as you post contradictory facts in the same post! Unreal...

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
If the force from the fireball from the impact area above was powerful enough to snap elevator cables

This is what happens when people have no idea of what they're talking about. Fire has very little force. There's no possible way that you can ignite any petroleum and make it snap elevator cables and I challenge you to try. I'll even let you cheat. Go pick you up some kerosene from your local gas station, go pick up some tie-down cables from any hardware store, throw them on the ground in your back yard, dump the kerosene on them, light the kerosene watch them NOT snap. Fire isn't an explosive.

The only thing related to the impacts of the planes that would have snapped cables would have been the debris from the planes themselves. Or explosives.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
then it certainly would cause similar damage and injuries in the lobby

Yeah, except fire isn't an explosive and neither does fire or heat travel down.

Originally posted by Alfie1
There are other witnesses to burns victims in the lobby if you care to look.

There were also continued explosions in the basement levels that continued to cause elevator doors to blow open with fireballs, well after the first plane had already hit. This was reported by numerous witnesses including FDNY firefighter John Schroeder. You can watch Schroeder's interview on Youtube.

Originally posted by Alfie1
Can you please explain how anyone in windowless basement levels had any idea they were experiencing an explosion before the plane hit hundreds of feet above them ?

Yep. Mike Pecoraro, a Stationary Engineer said that after the basement explosion, they ascended the stairs to the machine shop and found rubble everywhere and the machine shop was "gone". The 50-ton hydraulic brake press in the machine shop "gone".

Mike and his coworker ascended to the next level and were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds, wrinkled up "like a piece of aluminum foil" and lying on the floor. "They got us again," Mike told his co-worker, referring to the terrorist attack in 1993.

Philip Morelli, a construction worker at the WTC was also in the basement levels and reported numerous explosions. He said he knows people who got killed in the basement levels from the explosions, he knows people that were seriously injured and had to have reconstructive surgury from walls and other debris hitting them in the basement from the explosions.

Oh, and that's explosionS with an "s".

Not to mention the numerous people in this video that heard and/or felt the explosion from the basement levels before the first plane hit. To deny these witnesses is to deny facts and therefore showing your true colors as to why you're really here posting.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
there's no physical way, shape, or form how he'd know whether a particular explosion was before, during, or after the impact.

Grasp at those straws, Dave. It's very easy to tell when things happen below you and when things happen above you. I live in an apartment building and it's very easy to tell when noises come from below and when they come from above.

He, along with quite a few other witnesses in this video heard or felt an explosion before the first plane impact. Stop this denial BS and get with the facts, man! If only you people could see how foolish you are when you blatantly deny something because your denial won't let you see past your own bias and denial.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
I listen to all of what all the witnesses say and try to determine a scenario from it.

If that were the case, then you would admit right now that there was a massive explosion in the basement levels before the first plane impact because there are plenty of witnesses in this video that heard or felt the explosion before the first plane impact. Denying this fact shows your true motives here.

Originally posted by Shadow Herder
Of course people way say it was "fuel" coming down the shafts, but thats hundreds of floors, many vents along the way, many elevators. and no direct elevator from the impact zone that would allow this to happen.

Another myth is that the none of the elevators worked. Truth is some of them didnt work but lots of them did considering that there were many elevators as you can see in the diagram.

If the flaming jet fuel coming down the shafts blowing out the lobby were true then the sky lobbies would of taken it the greatest and their is no evidence of that but there is lots of evidence and witnesses that saw, heard, felt the explosions seconds before the plane hit and during in the sub levels (basement).

How could flaming jet fuel make it down so far? How could it of jumped to another shaft and sky lobby? Why would the main lobby blow out if it is not really on the ground level. There were i think 5 or 6 floors beneath the lobby.

[edit on 7-3-2010 by Shadow Herder]

Excellent diagram! Anyone who has actually been to the top of one of the towers knows they were built like three separate buildings stacked on top of each other. Explosions in the basement and lobby as a result of planes hitting the upper floors is simply impossible.

Anyways, in regards to William Rodriguez, here's Rosie O'Donell's interview with him. I find it somewhat interesting that Rosie was blacklisted after publicly questioning what happened to WTC7 and her co-host, Joy Behar, a woman with probably the most grating and chainsaw-like voice I've ever heard, now has a TV show of her own. Not that I'm suggesting a conspiracy to silence anyone who questions the official lie, just noting another "coincidence" to add to the list.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


William Rodriguez, repeatedly said there were explosions in the basement.
Dave believes what William Rodriguez has to say, Dave has made that perfectly clear. I am beginning to think Dave might be waking up.
I sure hope so, it would be nice to have Dave as a Truther.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


Have a problem with reading comprehension?

I said SEVERAL FREIGHT AND PASSENGERS ELEVATORS

Several as in combination of freight and passenger elevators

You are right there was only freight elevator who ran lenght of building -
CAR 50

Somehow missed that there were 2 passenger elevators which ran the
lenght of building (or to 107 floor which was highest point for normal access, floors above were mechanical or equipment including TV/Radio
transmitters)

Still waiting for anyone to explain to me how Rodriguez changed his story.


If he changed his story, what was his story originally, and then what did he later change it to?


This is always a fun question to ask the "debunkers."


And a great example of how something stupid one person can come up with at JREF, can spread around like a virus amongst these guys because they are every bit as much the unthinking conformist sheep they accuse "truthers" of being.

[edit on 7-3-2010 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
This is what happens when people have no idea of what they're talking about. Fire has very little force. There's no possible way that you can ignite any petroleum and make it snap elevator cables and I challenge you to try. I'll even let you cheat. Go pick you up some kerosene from your local gas station, go pick up some tie-down cables from any hardware store, throw them on the ground in your back yard, dump the kerosene on them, light the kerosene watch them NOT snap. Fire isn't an explosive.

That quote isn't coming from me. It's coming from William Rodriguez' testimony to NIST in 2004. He said that fire came down the freight elevator shaft into the basement and severely burned someone standing in front of the shaft. The fact that fire from the burning fuel forced its way down the elevator shafts directly confirms the Naudet brothers documentary, as their video specifically records eyewitness accounts of flames coming from the elevator shafts as well.

Go ahead and accuse Rodriguez and the Naudet brothers of lying. I double dog dare you.

He, along with quite a few other witnesses in this video heard or felt an explosion before the first plane impact. Stop this denial BS and get with the facts, man! If only you people could see how foolish you are when you blatantly deny something because your denial won't let you see past your own bias and denial.

So since it's pretty well established that Superman's X-ray vision is fiction, how else would Rodriguez, etc al know what was happening outside the building up on the ninety somethingth floor when he was inside the building down in the basement?

Dude, the only bias I have is in trying to straighten out the twisted spaghetti of contradictions and backtracking you conspiracy people are using to push these "secret government plots" of yours. For one thing, how the [censored] would explosions down in the basement cause the structure to start collapsing up where the plane struck the building, anyway?

[SNIP]

Is that a fact? Well then, what say we recap some of your previous posts, shall we?

-You use photos of the Pentagon to try and prove it was a cruise missile that hit it...and yet you deliberately ignore the photos of the wreckage of ground zero that show NO signs of explosive damage. This IS a double standard, regardless of whether you care to admit it or not.

-You use eyewitness accounts of explosions to try and prove there were controlled demolitions at the WTC...and yet you deliberately ignore the eyewitness accounts that state it was a passenger jet that hit the Pentagon. This IS a double standard, regardless of whether you care to admit it or not.

-You strictly demand that all your opponents follow absurdly stringent "chain of custody" for evidence to the point where you even demand to know the name of the photograher that took photos of wreckage found at the Pentagon (like THAT is going to be of help to you), and yet yourself will happily grab onto any ridiculous thing you find that remotely supports your conspiracy stories, up to and including typos on government web sites somebody found that listed incorrect flight numbers.

-Incidentally, what were those Pentagon wreckage photos of? Components that had legible serial numbers on them, and components with serial numbers found at the Pentagon was what YOU demanded to be given in the first place.

-...and when somone satisfies your chain of custody rules I.E. the name of the photographer who took the photos of the ground zero steel, or testimony from William Rodriguez that states flames came down the freight elevator shaft into the basement, you STILL completely ignore it. WTF is the point of your demanding chain of custody then???

-Oh, and when someone quotes soemthing you don't like, more than once I've seen you accuse the source (I.E. screwloosechange) of being "disinformation agents". Where's YOUR chain of custody evidence for that claim?

-That's of course when you're being only half silly. When you're being completely silly you'll drag the discussion over really stupid arguments over the differences in the definitions of "aircraft" and "airplane", or wallow over linguistics of whether Al Qaida means "base" or "toilet".

Do you remember all of those posts of yours? I certainly do, so don't even remotely attempt to claim you're trying to "learn the truth", my friend, becuase your own pattern of behavior in employing these silly little deception games shows you have a dishonest bias to promote these conspiracy stories of yours regardless of what the truth is. This is an agenda, regardless of whatever pretty name it is you want to use to refer to it.

You're not a truther attemnpting to "spread the word". You're a used car salesman trying to unload a lemon. Sorry, but "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain" didn't work on Dorothy and it's certainly not going to work on me.


[edit on 8-3-2010 by GoodOlDave]

Mod Edit: Removed quoted text.
Please focus on the topic and not on the poster. Please read.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by Gemwolf]

reply to post by GoodOlDave

It was already proven the fireball could not have blown out the elevators doors.

Eyewitness saw and heard explosions in the basement and sub-levels, these people were there. Look at the video again, Dave see the smoke and ash all over their clothing.

You can ridicule, insult, and smear the truth, but it will never go away Dave.

There are firemen stating they heard explosions are they all lairs Dave?
BTW, this thread is about Bombs going off in the WTC when the plane hit the WTC.

I do have to ask you one question since you believe in William Rodriguez story, Rodriguez says there were explosions going off in the basement in the WTC what he is implying was bombs and he makes that pretty clear don’t you think?
You do understand that William Rodriguez is traveling around the world and doing speaking engagements and he believes the WTC had bombs inside of them. Rodriguez does not know how, why, or who put them in the WTC, but he is pretty convince that bombs were exploding in the twin towers.

Cheers

Originally posted by impressme
It was already proven the fireball could not have blown out the elevators doors.

No, it has not been proven at all, just a "truther" stating their opinion as a fact like they do all the time!

Rodriguez says there were explosions going off in the basement in the WTC

Actually he said in 2001 "we hear like a big rumble. Not like an impact, like a rumble, like moving furniture in a massive way. And all of sudden we hear another rumble, and a guy comes running, running into our office, and all of skin was off his body. All of the skin. We went crazy, we started screaming, we told him to get out. We took everybody out of the office outside to the loading dock area.[33] ”

Rodriguez's early accounts repeatedly mentioned a large fireball that shot down the elevator shafts and exploded through the doors, causing serious burn injuries to a man who happened to be standing in front of one of the freight elevator doors. This was consistent with similar reports by numerous other witnesses who saw fireballs erupting and blowing out elevator doors and burning people.[34] In September 2002, Rodriguez said in an CNN interview:
“ And at that terrible day when I took people out of the office, one of them totally burned because he was standing in front of the freight elevator and the ball of fire came down the duct of the elevator itself, I put him on the ambulance."
en.wikipedia.org...
Nothing at all about a explosion....

except he then changed his story...

"By August 17, 2007, after more than two years of telling his story to enthralled audiences, he told C-Span:
“ All of a sudden at 8:46… we hear 'BOOM!' An explosion so powerful and so loud that push us upward in the air coming from below! It was so powerful that all the walls cracked, the false ceiling fell on top of us, the sprinkler system got activated and everybody started screaming in horror: 'HELP! HELP! HELP!'[47]

reply to post by dereks

We all know what he said.
You are presenting one statement, how about showing all his statement from all his speaking engagements.

Originally posted by impressme
We all know what he said.

Yes, like the following: In his lawsuit, Rodriquez made hundreds of allegations including allegations that the Twin Towers were destroyed by means of "controlled demolitions;" that members of the FDNY were ordered, on instructions of the CIA, not to talk about it; that the FDNY conspired with Larry Silverstein to deliberately destroy 7WTC; that projectiles were fired at the Twin Towers from “pods” affixed to the underside of the planes that struck them; that FEMA is working with the US government to create “American Gulag” concentration camps which FEMA will run once the federal government’s plan to impose martial law is in place; that phone calls made by some of the victims, as reported by their family members, were not actually made but were "faked" by the government using "voice morphing" technology; that a missile, not American Airlines Flight 77, struck the Pentagon; that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down by the U.S. military; that the defendants had foreknowledge of the attacks and actively conspired to bring them about; that the defendants engaged in kidnapping, arson, murder, treason, conspiracy, trafficking in narcotics, embezzlement, securities fraud, insider trading, identity and credit card theft, blackmail, trafficking in humans, and the abduction and sale of women and children for sex."

Yes, that sounds like some people here!

reply to post by dereks


You obviously have not watched the OP video.
Second line…

Right I do not know all the arguments used by the 9/11 sides so I will just post what I do understand.

First of all, how did Rodriguez know that there was a fireball travelling down the elevator shaft seeing as he was outside it in the basement? Just asking I couldn't care for taking sides.

Also fire does not travel down corridors and shafts as is being suggested here. Air needs considerable encouragement to light, so a fire on one level would not cause a fireball down the elevator shaft as the air would have no reason to ignite, unless it had a ridicuously high oxygen level. Therefore unless there was some source of fuel there would have been no ignition and hence no fireball.

An explosion happens when combustion occurs where there is not enough space and oxygen for combustion to happen properly. For example if you put gun cotton on a table and light it it will just flash burn, but if you wrap it in tape and light it, it explodes, fire is essentially a delayed explosion. So although fire would not cause elevator cables to snap, an explosion caused by a fire could, however as I said above there would be no reason for the air to ignite to begin with so there could have been no explosion outside of the immediate area.

And as a side note, what would be the point in planting bombs inside the WTC when it was designed with the intention of surviving internal explosions. The government would have known about this design so assuming that bombs were planted they would have had to have been done by the terrorists.

-Cauch1

(tell me if I have misunderstood someones point)

[edit on 8/3/2010 by Cauch1]