Top home-school texts dismiss Darwin, evolution

Originally posted by Maslo

Imagine that you would not get your major in history because your parents told you that the world is in fact 6000 years old and mainstream history is lies. It would not be so lol then, would it?

That's true. But then again he has a point: If a young adult still believes the world is 6000 years old then he doesn't deserve a degree, be it the fault of his parents or not.

No parent has absolute dominion over kids; eventually kids grow up and that does entail learning the application of critical thinking to some extent. No child is just a product of education; I know some kids who were raised by fundamentalists and grew up to see that the beliefs of their parents have no merit all on their own.

Of course what you mention isn't funny, but I guess the case you describe is rather seldom. Kids eventually think on their own - at least some of the times.

Well i have no problem in the end if parents want to teach creationist garbage as a science to their kids at home, trying to get it into a science class room is a different story all together and one the state should not allow under any circumstance...for the simple reason it is not a science, common sense really. And as others have mentioned, evolution is a fact whether you like it or not. The mechanisms driving it are the theory.

[edit on 9-3-2010 by Solomons]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Being brought up believing in creationism has to limit the chances of them studying science at university, wouldn't it? I know what you are saying, and you are right - a creationist can have a good job. My point is that a creationist is less likely to have a good job, as further education in science will be simply unattainable if they don't understand or value the scientific method.

But yes, I totally agree - intelligent selection in action

reply to post by Maslo


I think ImaginaryReality1984 was laughing at the wordplay, not the described phenomenon. Please correct me if I'm wrong, ImaginaryReality1984.

I agree with you that teaching kids nonsense in lieu of actual fact constitutes child abuse, possibly (though not in every case) resulting in that child being educationally scarred for life, hindering their further education and eventual career. I don't care if the nonsense comes from religion or an ignorant world view - it's not fair on the kid.

reply to post by Solomons


Just to clarify my position... the topic of this thread is homeschooling - when the child is educated only by his parents, and does not go to school to hear the official part of the story. In this case, the education is completely up to parents, and they have to educate their child about evolution, too, if it is in the curriculum, because noone else will.

When the child is not homeschooled and attends normal school, he learns the scientific opinion, and can choose himself what to believe. Thats not where the problem is. (but it can be also damaging...)

edit - this post is not directed at Solomons, but everyone...

[edit on 9-3-2010 by Maslo]

Originally posted by Maslo

It is very cruel to do something like this to a child, which believes almost anything you tell him. Child abuse, IMHO, and a crime.

Imagine that you would not get your major in history because your parents told you that the world is in fact 6000 years old and mainstream history is lies. It would not be so lol then, would it?

Any intelligent child will see the reality and this is born out by the countless adults who were raised to believe in creationism who then went on to abandon it in favour of well researched theories. Anyone who has studied history to the level where they are going to college will no doubt have abandoned creationism.

Originally posted by davesidious
Being brought up believing in creationism has to limit the chances of them studying science at university, wouldn't it? I know what you are saying, and you are right - a creationist can have a good job. My point is that a creationist is less likely to have a good job, as further education in science will be simply unattainable if they don't understand or value the scientific method.

But yes, I totally agree - intelligent selection in action

I still hold true to the idea that intelligence will win out and once confronted with evidence in college and univresity the children (well by then young adults) will abandon any ideas of creationism. I suppose all that can be done is to see what happens in future but creationism has suffered numerous body blows over the years and recently it has really been struck down. This is why people are resorting to home schooling.

Originally posted by davesidious
I think ImaginaryReality1984 was laughing at the wordplay, not the described phenomenon. Please correct me if I'm wrong, ImaginaryReality1984.

Yeah i was laughing at the wordplay of "intelligent selection" It was a composite of natural selection and intelligent design, ahh well i thought it was funny lol but nevermind.

Originally posted by davesidious
I agree with you that teaching kids nonsense in lieu of actual fact constitutes child abuse, possibly (though not in every case) resulting in that child being educationally scarred for life, hindering their further education and eventual career. I don't care if the nonsense comes from religion or an ignorant world view - it's not fair on the kid.

Ok i see where you're coming from but i don't think the government has a right to interfere with what is being taught at home. You have admitted that creationist teachings will not stop someone from getting a decent job, you have also agreed that the intelligent kids will discover the truth, so in the end it doesn't matter. The less intelligent children who can't see the truth won't be harmed because they were never going to end up in university, learning scientific subjects.

Reading what i have just written i can see how it may be viewed as intellectual elitism but i honestly don't mean it that way.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


I think that it is possible for creationist kids to get a decent job, but it is less likely, simply as their beliefs preclude them from great swathes of academic study.

I also think that some kids will use their intelligence to defy the beliefs of their parents, but I don't think all of them will. There are plenty of intelligent people who cling to creationism because of some other emotional need.

If we just stopped parents from teaching this pap to their kids, all of this would be moot. We're not talking about parents also teaching creationism to kids who are educated in school (and who have actual science classes), but kids who will only learn of creationism.

It should be a required part of any curriculum that evolution be taught, and that creationism (and every other fairy tale) kept out of science lessons. But, from what I've seen of many creationists, not all of them would do that, even if it was the law.

Which is sad.

reply to post by Maslo


If my family would decide to not learn my homeschooled sister some part of the curriculum, we would have social workers on our neck. And thats how it should be, IMHO.

This is Communism is it not-- someone on your neck dictating what your child must learn.
That's what the USSR was all about.
That is what China is all about.

reply to post by Solomons


Please explain how a theory can drive a mechaniasm?

Originally posted by Donny 4 million


This is Communism is it not-- someone on your neck dictating what your child must learn.

No it's not. While it's not the case here forcing your child to learn somethiing has nothing to do with communism. In the extreme form it is totalianarism. And yes, the UdSSR was like many other country totalitarian. But to say that having a curriculum and actually forcing your teachers to adhere to it is not totalitarian - it's common sense.

That's what the USSR was all about.

That's not what it was about. It was about many things, certainly you can't biol down the quintessence of a country to one sentence. Education and the style it was delivered was surely not one of the features that made the UdSSR unique, in fact, in the fields of science and education they were similiar to us, minus the academic freedom.

That is what China is all about.

So you say China is all about forcing their children to learn specific things? Don't you find such comments slightly simplistic?


Every country forces their children to learn certain things to a certain degree. Some do it in a totalitarian way, some in democratic way.
This is not an issua of communism or non-communism.

[edit on 9-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

reply to post by davesidious


I suppose the middle ground would be that any home schooled children be taught both evolution and creationism, if there parents are creationists i mean. Evolution is a mandated part of the general curriculum and so it would be more easily argued in court that both should be taught rather than banning creationism.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
If my family would decide to not learn my homeschooled sister some part of the curriculum, we would have social workers on our neck. And thats how it should be, IMHO.

But that isn't how it is donny. People completely ignore the curriculum with regard to evolution, in many homes it is not taught at all, so where are the social workers? Also Donny, at the risk of sounding mean, it's teach, not learn.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
This is Communism is it not-- someone on your neck dictating what your child must learn.

In no way is that communism. All that is being asked is children learn facts, not fairy tales. Thinking about it, parents who homeschool still have to answer to the state for exams and that kind of thing. If they apply to take state exams then maybe the state curriculum should be enforced and if they wish to teach creationism alongside it, at home then fine.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
That's what the USSR was all about.
That is what China is all about.

I think your history and experiences are sadly tainting your ability to respond to things in a logical manner. People raised with the "reds under the bed" experience tend to have a very skewed perspective.

[edit on 9-3-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by Donny 4 million


Another demonstration of how you don't know what "Communism" means. Thanks.

reply to post by Donny 4 million


The theory describes the mechanisms that drive evolution, not that the theory drives the mechanisms.

Again, working on your reading comprehension would help.

reply to post by davesidious


Hey davey

What do you say to this?

You must have the wrong country.
Do you bring your arguements to Israel as well.
What do they tell you?

Jewish views on evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Conservative Jews teach that God created the universe and is responsible for the creation of life within it, but proclaims no mandatory teachings about how ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_evolution -





Most modern rabbis[citation needed] believe that the world is older, and that life as we know it today did not always exist. They believe such a view is needed to accept well-supported scientific theories, such as the theory of evolution. Rabbis who had this view based their conclusions on verses in the Talmud or in the midrash. For example:

Talmud Chaggiga 13b-14a states that there were 974 generations before God created Adam.
The Midrash[1] says: God created many worlds but was not satisfied, and left the world he was satisfied with.
Rabbi Moshe Ben Nacman (1194 - 1270) writes[2]: In the first day God created the energy (כח) "matter" (יולי) of all things, and then he was finished with the main creation. After that God created all other things from that energy.
Some midrashim state that the "first week" of Creation lasted for extremely long periods of time. See Anafim on Rabbenu Bachya's Sefer Ikkarim 2:18; Midrash Bere# Rabbah 9.
In Psalms it says "A thousand years is like a day in Your sight" (Psalm 90:

Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by Donny 4 million

 

Another demonstration of how you don't know what "Communism" means. Thanks.

Well tell us then-- what does it mean and explain why all Russians were stripped of their religous rights under communism.

[edit on 9-3-2010 by Donny 4 million]

[edit on 9-3-2010 by Donny 4 million]

Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by Donny 4 million

 

The theory describes the mechanisms that drive evolution, not that the theory drives the mechanisms.

Again, working on your reading comprehension would help.

No argument there, Now tell that to Solomon's. Post the quotes you have problems understanding. It will help you reply sensibly.
My reading comprehention is just fine and has no bering on the topic at hand.

This is Communism is it not-- someone on your neck dictating what your child must learn.

That is not communism at all. It is called compulsory education.

Originally posted by Tyler 720
Home school is just the religious(facist) rights answer to the liberal (socialist) lefts brainwashing tacticts.

Neither one teaches the most important thing one could ever learn, how to think for ones self.

The person who can rationaly put together two previous thoughts or ideas into one new unheard of idea is the most dangerous person to each of these obssessive,compusive, destructive , manipulative, overbearing, psychopathic, delusional, mirror images of each other.

It seems you've got religious people labeled as fascist, but the "liberals" as you call them in this case clearly have the more tyrannical position. In point of fact the government of schools is socialist because corporate profits don't even factor in much, so you can't say either position is fascist. But you can easily say that schools are welfare for the middle class and therefore a socialist program.

But what is the important point is which position is the more tyrannical position to take. Taking away a parents right to parent to the best of their ability is more tyrannical than allowing them to teach their children what they believe is most important and most relevant for them.

If creation was considered the common-sense only reasonable position and evolution was considered a crazy cult idea, the religious people would support your decision to withdraw them from school to teach your child evolution instead of creation. But if you swap out the positions, you are advocating a tyrannical position.

This is a ridiculous debate to start because your side(mandatory evolution teaching) loses so badly when you compare all the test scores of home-schooled children vs public-schooled children. The education level of the home-schooled runs many circles around that of the publicly schooled. By fighting against home schooling you are fighting for ignorance and failure of children but just don't realize it.

Personally I'm a big science fan. I believe we are here because of evolution... we evolved from primates. However, I skip over articles on evolution in science magazines because its simply not a topic of interest and I don't see it as critical in any way to understanding how to manipulate and control genes. Its nice little background information that might help every blue moon but it isn't even close to being essential.

One can study genetics and how to manipulate the human genome without studying evolution. I'm someone who's very interested in seeing the success of manipulating genes in any way one wants. Want an eye on the back of your head? Sounds great to me. But study of evolution is not necessarily needed at all to accomplish that.

Genetics is an essential part of practical application of biology but evolution is not a part of practical application of biology. If it was I'd be reading those articles on evolution with great attention. I skip them over.

Want to take a look with me and go out searching for data showing the science scores of the home-schooled vs. science scores of the public

[edit on 9-3-2010 by truthquest]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


It is not amusing to me how everyone wants to jump on my every word.

Your erroneous post some one else's words and attribute them to me.
And then TRIES to LEARN me.
Maybe if all the brainiacs were continually hounding your butt with this kind of crap
you would understand why I don't kiss their asses with my words.

You took my reply to another member and quoted his words as mine. This has happened several times on this thread. I think this is just your first time.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
If my family would decide to not learn my homeschooled sister some part of the curriculum, we would have social workers on our neck. And that's how it should be, IMHO.
THE ABOVE quote is not mine--.Donny 4 million


This is your reply to another members quote Imaginary reality. You may want to still address this point with that member.
But that isn't how it is Donny. People completely ignore the curriculum with regard to evolution, in many homes it is not taught at all, so where are the social workers? Also Donny, at the risk of sounding mean, it's teach, not learn.
Let' put an end to miss-quoting Donny 4 million
It is really low class.

reply to post by Donny 4 million


That was originaly my quote. Nevermind, I will answer nonetheless.

If my family would decide to not learn my homeschooled sister some part of the curriculum, we would have social workers on our neck. And thats how it should be, IMHO.

But that isn't how it is Maslo. People completely ignore the curriculum with regard to evolution, in many homes it is not taught at all, so where are the social workers? Also Maslo, at the risk of sounding mean, it's teach, not learn.

Yes, I agree, and that is the problem in the original post. A problem of enforcing that parents have to teach according to curriculums. And the social workers are more or less enforcing it, but they are not omnipotent.

As a proof, this is a quote from another active thread:

Star and flag for you... I have believed this for the past decade. I used to home-school my children..till social workers intervened and for no reason other than I was following a curriculum that was not the same as the school system, I was forced to place my kids in school. They are unhappy, depressed, and fearful of both teachers and bullies. Tell me how they are better off?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

When my sister was homeschooled, we had to teach her according to curriculum, too.


Oh, and teach and learn are the same expression in Slovak, I messed up again...

[edit on 9-3-2010 by Maslo]

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
If my family would decide to not learn my homeschooled sister some part of the curriculum, we would have social workers on our neck. And that's how it should be, IMHO.
THE ABOVE quote is not mine--.Donny 4 million

Donny i have made a mistake, this wasn't your quote but you know why i made the mistake? It is because you did not use the quotation function of ATS and so without that it was insanely easy to think it was something you were saying. So while i admit it wasn't your quote i will not apologise for it. If you want people to debate you effectively then please use the quotation function, otherwise confusion is going to occur.

As for people often doing this in the thread, well i can understand why, you need to learn to use the quotes man.

[edit on 9-3-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]