A Step Forward for Law Enforcement, and Even Some on ATS will be Happy!

Originally posted by IceHappy
All videos can be edited.

Hollywood does it all of the time.

What about the guy being videoed?

Does he have a right to video for his defense?

Yes, the defense is ALWAYS has a right to a copy of the video from ANY camera used.

In all of the documentaries I have seen where Leos come up to investigate some one doing a private protest and not breaking any laws who are being filmed by the Leos when Joe public raises his camera or video camera all Leos become Alpha Hotel.

The day Joe Public can video back is the day I accept Leos rights to video as the two recordings should tell the same truths!

Perhaps that is why Leos become Alpha Hotels when seeing a camera or video pointing at them as they know they cannot fix theirs to serve their purposes.

I am not talking about the example shown.

I am talking about Joe Public's rights to protest and videos for their protection.

I would really like to hear from you Leos out there why you are so camera shy and thinks its your right to video others.

Also I like to know what give you the right to go Alpha Hotel the moment a camera is pointed at you. There are enough videos in the public domain not to have to prove this point.

Thank you.

You need to get out more then..lol. We get filmed ALL THE TIME as do many police officers. Yes of course there are incidents where an officer flips out about it. Why, I have no idea, but we get filmed ALOT without issue. Hell not to long ago a friend of mine who works for Dekalb County Police sang for a woman filming them after a protest, its on youtube...pretty funny stuff.

Originally posted by romanmel
Well rcwj1975 you may remember me as one of those ATS'ers who is not so inclined to accept your assurances, as a cop, that you are Ms polly-purebred when it comes to civil liberties of citizens. Thanks, for telling us of the new audio/video whiz-bang you are being equipped with.

Its not an assurance, its a means to satisfy people who want this stuff. Or atleast help the best we can show people that stuff happens fast and with more video you can now see that firsthand.

I would only ask this...Does the officer have the ability to turn off the device at will? If so, then he could conveniently claim it stopped working when he decides to slap someone silly or worse, right?

Yes we do. Well think about this. You go to a call that is or is about to get heated, if you decide to NOT turn it on after the county just paid for these things for this exact reason, your going to find yourself in a bad way, ESPECIALLY if a complaint is filed and your excuse for not having it on is..oh I forgot, or oh I just didn't turn it on.

Listen, if you want to prove to me and others who have questioned your loyalty to this republic, why not join Oath Keepers:

oathkeepers.org...

That way you could state you have taken an oath not obey an order contray to the US Constitution. This would placate many of us who question a cop's true allegence. A good video of the Oath Keepers organization can be viewed here:

www.youtube.com...

I don't need to join oathkeepers, WHY? Because back in 1995 I joined Uncle Sams Army, served 6 years with the 2nd Ranger Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, Ft. Lewis, WA and took that oath. I am proud of my service to this nation and what I accompished then and am proud of what I accomplish now. I think the idea is great, but for those of us who took the day of swearing in seriously, it need only be done ONCE!

By the way, if orders ever came down to start kicking in doors WITHOUT warrants, or orders came down to take guns without cause, my word may not be enough for some of you, but I can tell you this, that day is the day I walk away from this job.

People keep mentioning that video can be edited. Yes, it can be. In the case of Law enforcement, and in the field I am now in, the video evidence CAN NOT be edited without detection. The time stamping and watermarking are provided by commercial companies. (court and citizen group approved) Usually for court purposes, it is in a format that only the companies player can decipher and play. It would take a huge amount of collusion to edit these videos.

The video CANNOT be changed to another format for editing without damage to the watermark or stamping.

I mean in the end, with technology the way it is I'm sure there are brainiacs that could figure something out. But it wouldn't be your average LEO. That is for sure.
The amount of people that would have to be involved to cover something like this, when they aren't under threat of elimination by the gov't, would surely end up with someone spilling the beans eventually.

That said, even DNA evidence can be manipulated, with the proper amount of collusion. So if you are that paranoid, then you can trust in nothing.
I won't abandon ship that easily. haha.

Originally posted by Volton
I don't need to be recorded while I'm on the clock to prove I'm doing my job right. Am I under the same scrutiny? No, but it really shocks me that all of your co-workers were okay with this.

And the video used to demonstrate this technology? wth!!!

Do you not go through combat training on how to disarm someone with a knife? umm without shooting them dead......

No, in fact, you are taught very early on that a knife is a DEADLY WEAPON and should be dealt with as such. The movies make it look very nice and pretty when the hero quickly disarms the knife fighting assailant. In reality, you are almost certainly going to get cut if you go hands on with someone coming at you with a knife. I'm sorry, but if someone pulls a knife they have just escalated the situation into the realm of deadly force.

Originally posted by Volton
I don't need to be recorded while I'm on the clock to prove I'm doing my job right. Am I under the same scrutiny? No, but it really shocks me that all of your co-workers were okay with this.

And the video used to demonstrate this technology? wth!!!

Do you not go through combat training on how to disarm someone with a knife? umm without shooting them dead......

Why does it shock you? Also how many other jobs do you know of are arm chair quarterbacked and put under a microscope? Does your job have other peoples lives hangin in the balance of a split second decision?

This isn't hollywood man, and I am guessing by your last statment your young, practice MMA BS, and have never been attacked by someone with a knife. GOD how I wish it was as easy as some of you make it out to be. Come talk to me when you successfully disarm arm a jackoff with a knife OUTSIDE a training enviroment where said perp doesn't follow a training script.

Originally posted by richierich

Originally posted by Prime-Vector

you obviously know nothing about the law. People in public places can be filmed, by me or the cops, and there is NO privacy violation.

FALSE...... you better do some reading yourself.
You do have rights you are NOT addressing in this matter.
YOUR blanket statement is way off and way FALSE.
23 years of on the job hands on experience and knowledge of this matter tells me this........on a daily basis.

Click here for more information.

i wonder if it will effect police "discretion" at all.

i mean every once in a while i run into a down to earth officer with no concern for small things, specially if its not what he meant to nail you for.

Ive had police officers ask me if i had anything illegal and upon telling them of the marijuana in my pocket gotten the reply "ok just leave it there".

or im sure you've all had the guy who just wanted to tell you to slow down a bit but had no intention of ruining your life.

i wonder if this will prevent them from "letting things go". perhaps if hes afraid hes being monitored that kind of discretion will be minimized and everything will be by the book. in which case we might as well build police robots.

[removed quote of ill-mannered content]



Talk about a big assumption. so in your mind all 800,000 LEO's in american have all done what you claim? Does that make it safe for me as a LEO to say all 300,000,000 citizens have raped and molested a child under 5 like the guy we arrsted on Tuesday night? Grow up man...really.







[edit on 6-3-2010 by 12m8keall2c]

The only way I could see this kind of tech working in accordance with impartiality would be to have these vids streaming live to a public site accessible on the net, day or night.

You want transparency, thats the only way your going to get it.

The cams controls, ie... On/off switch, should also be out of the hands of the officers who wear them.

Big brother has been watching far too long for their benefit and their benefit only.

It's time John-Q-Public gets the benefit of their tax dollars at work.

I'll go one step further... every government elected official should be under the same scrutiny.

Originally posted by LurkerMan
i wonder if it will effect police "discretion" at all.

i mean every once in a while i run into a down to earth officer with no concern for small things, specially if its not what he meant to nail you for.

Ive had police officers ask me if i had anything illegal and upon telling them of the marijuana in my pocket gotten the reply "ok just leave it there".

or im sure you've all had the guy who just wanted to tell you to slow down a bit but had no intention of ruining your life.

i wonder if this will prevent them from "letting things go". perhaps if hes afraid hes being monitored that kind of discretion will be minimized and everything will be by the book. in which case we might as well build police robots.

GREAT QUESTION! and one that was raised by many of us. There is nothing wrong with letting a person go for minor stuff. Happens ALL THE TIME. The command staff told us that our discretion was still OURS. Letting a guy gor for less than an ounce of weed isn't against the law or policy. The ONLY thing we now know we will have to arrest on that we sometimes overlooked was no licensed drivers (this usually being hispanics). If they had a registered vehicle and insurance, we would sometimes cut them a break and let them go, but our policy states that no license is a crime to be handled on the spot. So now those allowed to drive off before will be taking a ride with us. Other minor stuff though, we are still going to use discretion.

reply to post by HappilyEverAfter


And WHAT rights do you have that I did not mention? All you do is claim that others are wrong but you offer NO proof of anything!! Amazing!!

There are little privacy rights in public. you can be filmed in public, either by cops or anyone else. you have ZERO expectation of privacy when you expose yourself to others. In a home, privacy rights are at their pinnacle...in a car somewhat lessened..and on the open street almost gone. this is FACT and supported by dozens of court decisions.

PLEASE show a few court cases that prove me wrong. show a case where a judge ruled that someone in public has the same rights to privacy as someone in a car or home..show us and sto making silly and ridiculous claims.

Cops hate to be filmed becase they OFTEn use extra legal means to do their ' jobs', and do not want to be held accountable for all the lies, intimidations, bluffs, and worse. there is NO LAW that confers special privacy rights to cops...if they are in public you can film them...and if they do not like it, it is because they are guilty of something and like dcockroaches, want to flee from the light of truth.

You will never convince anyone of anything you say without some evidence..and all you have is your opinion, which is worth zip.

Originally posted by richierich
reply to post by HappilyEverAfter

 

There are little privacy rights in public. you can be filmed in public, either by cops or anyone else. you have ZERO expectation of privacy when you expose yourself to others. In a home, privacy rights are at their pinnacle...in a car somewhat lessened..and on the open street almost gone. this is FACT and supported by dozens of court decisions.

Even though Rich and I are like oil and water....he is correct HappilyEA. There is very little rights to privacy when you are in public. If this were the case, businesses would need EVERY customer to sign privacy rights forms when they were pumpin gas under the survaillence cameras, etc...

i think its cool that you asked us what we thought before fully implementing them.

i wish the airports would have done this with the body scanners.

We've had these recording devices for police in the UK for ages - they even make TV programs from the evidence.

It doesn't stop the police from being pig-like storm-troopers.

If you want to stop them from being like this, stop them from being corporate enforcement officers, and make them public servants again.

Parallex.

Originally posted by rcwj1975

Here is a quick example video from VIDMIC! It gives you a view never seen before by people. ***THIS IS A TRAINING VIDEO, NOT REAL***

I wanted to find out what you guys thought of such a tool. I know some of you with pure hate for my profession SHOULD welcome these, but we shall see. Either way, thoughts?

The video is a poor example, even with a mock up video you don't know what your seeing.... The guy with the knife could be some deaf dude or maybe he couldn't hear with all the sirens and engines running. Was he going to give the knife to the cop for evidence, who knows... it seemed he was just casually walking too, did they really have to shoot the guy? But of course it's just bad acting..... However, it proves that you don't know what your seeing.

Maybe with this technology bad cops will become better actors?

If there is an on off button for the VIDMIC, that makes it almost useless too, again making it a matter of perspective. But I'm sure it could be a useful tool for weeding out some bad cops, as there could be situations where they don't have time to turn it off.

To bad they couldn't make a better promo video, I would bet most court cases could be filled with terrible VIDMIC video too.


[edit on 6-3-2010 by imitator]

I find it comical that there are a lot of people on this forum that are butt hurt over their dealings with law enforcement, yet in the same statement they admit to having been arrested or on parole for some type of crime. Should I automatically assume that someone is scum, just because they've been arrested for DWI or on parole for something? I think it would be unfair for me to judge someone just because they've been in jail. Likewise, saying all cops are corrupt is like saying a particular race are all thugs because a certain percentage of the race is committing the crimes.

I've been in law enforcement for 22 years and I've seen some very bad cops, there's no denying that, but I've also seen lots of good cops. And yes there are many rude cops out there. I've been a supervisor for over 16 years, supervising different areas of Law Enforcement to include Patrol, CID, Vice, Crime Prevention. Throughout my entire career I've had to file criminal charges against two of my subordinates for breaking the law, these were victimless crimes, but crimes nonetheless. Here are some of the things inherent in law enforcement that I've noticed throughout the years and some of the funny ways people react and the different perspectives in which people view law enforcement.


1. It very frequently happens where an officer pulls someone over for speeding, only to have the violator ask him why they're not doing more important things like catching burglars or stopping robberies. Officers are also frequently dispatched to calls where people are racing up and down the street only to have the people complaining ask why there aren't more cops stopping people from speeding.

2. Cops get dispatched to family violence calls, where the female accuses her husband of having beat the crap out of her. Yet when the officer tries to arrest the husband and he resists, she quickly jumps on the officer's back trying stop her husband from getting arrested.

3. I'm a hispanic officer who works in a hispanic community. I've had hispanics individuals, whom I've arrested, accuse me of being prejudice against them for being hispanic. "Uh Buddy, hello, I'm hispanic too."

4. I had a black person ranting an raving, threatening to sue me and accusing me of having arrested him just for being black, forgetting that his partner in crime standing right next to him was hispanic. When I pointed out that minor detail about his partner, he quit with all the ranting. Never mind that they had just robbed an auto parts store and were caught with the goods.

5. A lot of citizens have the belief that all officers, including management, within any agency cover for each other, yet within the agency itself the officers are always worried that management is trying to nail them for every little violation of policy.

6. There is always a rivalry between the different law enforcement agencies within a community. The Larger Municipal Police Department can't stand the Sheriff's Office, The Department of Public Safety can't stand the Larger Municipal Police Department, The Sheriff's Office can't stand the smaller town police departments. The Constables can't stand the Sheriff's Office.....Funny how that works, guess it must be all the testosterone.

7. Contrary to what a lot of people believe, nobody with any common sense would try and physically disarm someone with a knife. I had a grandmaster in Eskrima/Kali/ train me and a group of my officers and it is amazing how much damage a person with a knife can do even to a great fighter. In a life and death situation one does not want to use that as the chance to practice their knife disarming skills. Those skills would only be used as a last resort for someone that didn't have a weapon with which to defend themselves.

8. Cops get upset too when they get stopped and are given tickets by other cops. A lot of agencies throw professional courtesy out the window. I've had cops from other agencies complain that an officer of mine was unprofessional because he was given a citation. They normally stress to me, professional courtesy, I stress to them "obeying the law".



Guys these are just some of the things I've noticed throughout my career. Some funny, some not. I agree it's important that Law Enforcement Officers need to be "Public Servants". I myself run a very tight ship, but I also know how fast a situation can turn deadly for an officer. I've always stressed to my officers the importance of treating people the way they would want to be treated if they were stopped by a cop.

reply to post by Mr. Suave


You’re a shining example of the arrogance in which your breed prides themselves on. You are shunned by society for a reason. You give these examples in a stereotypically biased view.

You’re clearly trying to list every incident into specific categories that fit your mental image of each call out. WTF are you to brand people that experience these degenerates first hand. As I say, my earliest memory is of your esteemed colleagues ASSAULTING my MOTHER!! Yet you categorise people like me as deniers? I aint looking for sympathy and you'll certainly not get any from me regarding your 'cough' profession.

I have had any number of experiences with the police with one conviction to my name - let me enlighten you to the nature of this!

My friends and I had a knife pulled on us by a group of youths for nothing, in front of 5 or more officers. What happened - Sweet FA. I complain rather forcibly and was the only one arrested. Fair enough I was an idiot. Did it merit being stripped of all my clothes and left in a cell for 24hrs in a town 23 miles from my home? Sure I paid my £400! Get a grip of yourself and take a jump of your high horse.

Your arrogance is astonishing and yet you still come here and categorise individual experiences into your narrow minded stereotypes, Get over yourself – fact is you’re hated for a reason

Originally posted by rcwj1975


These mic's will allow us as law enforcement to show the people exactly what we see. Dash Cam's are fine for traffic stops, but many things we do that get us FALSE COMPLAINTS, FALSE STATEMENTS, FALSE USE OF FORCE COMPLAINTS happen away from the car, inside homes, foot chases, business's, etc...

First off, stop saying that they're false claims as many of us here on ATS already know that many of the claims are NOT false. And when it turns out that many of these FALSE complaints you claim are always filed are true I suppose it'll be just as easy to lose the evidence as it is to lose the dash cam video when it proves the citizen was right in their claims.

I remember a case in my area where a teen video taped a cop harassing and threatening to make up a FALSE charge against him to arrest him. If it wasn't for the fact the teen had a camera recording it all it'd been his word against the cop since the dash cam video was "missing". If the images it records can't be tampered with then I'm all for this as it would be a great idea. However, I don't believe it'll change anything. after all I'm sure that these cams run on batteries and have an on/off switch to save battery life. A cop wants to do bad...just turn off the cam.

Instead of wasting the money on some new toys for you cops to play with how about spending the money on firing all these corrupt cops and hiring honorable ones.