Important Issue Here, and it Involves All of US...MIND POWER.

I see a lot of people insulting traditionaldrummer when all he is trying to do is get you to back up your claims. You have to admit, your opening claims are very far fetched. I.e. we can "think" ouselves rich and find money, manipulate objects using our thoughts etc.

Now if I was to open a thread titled "I can fly". You would ask me to prove it right? It would not be your responsibility to prove that I cannot fly. That is what he is doing, asking you to back up your claims without turning to petty insults when his questions cannot be answered. 99% of the "evidence" I have read through in this thread is either somebody taking a physics phenomenon and then changing the reasoning behind it to match their beliefs or simply lies. It does not prove anything. If you can change the world around you by thinking then show us how. I dont want to see videos of people using physics experiments, which are not connected to this debate, to explain the "mind control" ability. Its like me charging myself with static electricity and then claiming to everyone I can shoot lightning bolts.

Oh and by the way, you should probably read a book called the Men who stare at goats. The US military conducted an experiment where soldiers stared at goats to try and stop their hearts. It didnt work.

in Buddhism there are certain mental powers that a proficient individual possesses. However, even in yoga traditions, powers of the mind, while possible they say, are still attachments to the world. The true power is liberation from attachment, so that you are content with or without the mental powers. Emancipation is the true goal of the spiritual religions (Buddhism/Hinduism/Mysticism).

reply to post by Pryde87

I see a lot of people insulting traditionaldrummer when all he is trying to do is get you to back up your claims. You have to admit, your opening claims are very far fetched. I.e. we can "think" ouselves rich and find money, manipulate objects using our thoughts etc.

Regarding this user, his attitude has been arrogant to say the least... If a user does noes not except clinical studies and reports from professionals in the field, what else can one do?(The information and amount of proof on this thread is abundant) Agree to disagree maybe..

Now if I was to open a thread titled "I can fly". You would ask me to prove it right? It would not be your responsibility to prove that I cannot fly. That is what he is doing, asking you to back up your claims without turning to petty insults when his questions cannot be answered. 99% of the "evidence" I have read through in this thread is either somebody taking a physics phenomenon and then changing the reasoning behind it to match their beliefs or simply lies. It does not prove anything.

But when you start making statements that the given proof is false, then surely....you also need to state why...and you then need to provide proof. An ignorant person can deny anything, and you just end up running in circles. If you said you could fly, I probably ask for a video...that shows you flying.. I could, then as a skeptic, say that a)the vid has been doctored. b)How do I know it is you in the vid? c) If all else fails I could just plainly, deny that people can fly...despite the given evidence.

I have read through in this thread is either somebody taking a physics phenomenon and then changing the reasoning behind it to match their beliefs or simply lies. It does not prove anything.

Well, then...point out those facts, one by one and explain why. But the point remains, you cannot make that statement, unless you have conducted the experiment yourself and have found it to be false.

If you can change the world around you by thinking then show us how. I dont want to see videos of people using physics experiments, which are not connected to this debate, to explain the "mind control" ability. Its like me charging myself with static electricity and then claiming to everyone I can shoot lightning bolts.

This all personal experience, if you cannot trust that a what a person is sharing with you is the truth...then that is your problem. If they experienced it, and it is real to them how do you suppose one proves this? Especially over the internet. But here is a conference that deals with psi...and will provide you with proof of mental capabilities that cannot be explained fully as of yet.
Science and the taboo of psi

Oh and by the way, you should probably read a book called the Men who stare at goats. The US military conducted an experiment where soldiers stared at goats to try and stop their hearts. It didnt work.

Your sarcasm doesn't really do much for your credibility either.

reply to post by jinx880101


First things first. My closing comment wasnt sarcasm, the US government explored mind manipulation of objects and living things and then decided to stop wasting money on it. Its a well known book.

Regarding me having to prove that the so call evidence is false; I believe traditionaldrummer has already done this. He questioned it and backed up his statements with logical thinking and facts. When he started asking questions which could not be answered, thats when "the believers" started getting irritated and resorted to insults and avioding the questions with the stereotypical "why dont you prove me wrong". These so called Experts in the field and "clinical studies" are no better than Uri Gellar. There was a time when he had quite a following of "believers" who were smitten by his spoon bending abilities and probably wasted way too much time at home staring at cutlery. People like this are sensationalists, they exploit peoples desire to believe that there is something "magical" about themselves. It allows them to believe that they are special or have some sort of abilities which they dont, just to please their egos. If there was any sort of evidence over the thousands of years of mankinds existence that he could invent money just by thinking about it or physically manipulate the world with his mind, then it would be a very well established and exciting science. Instead it has been put on the backburner with other Pseudosciences like telepathy. If I can make money by simply thinking about it then why cant I imagine other things out of thin air too.

This whole "imagine money and you will find it" experiment (as traditionaldrummer said) is just your mind linking two events. If I am thinking about finding money, then theres a good chance I will be actively looking for money as well. And there is a good chance that someone who is actively looking for money will find it a lot quicker than someone who isnt, but that does not mean that he increased the probability of finding money with the power of his mind.

Now I take it that you are a believer in mental manipulation of physical matter, but have you ever experienced it? Tell me how you have changed things with your mind, if you have. I am not saying that in order for it to exist then you must have experienced it but I would be interested to hear if you have.

reply to post by Pryde87

First things first. My closing comment wasnt sarcasm, the US government explored mind manipulation of objects and living things and then decided to stop wasting money on it. Its a well known book.

Apologies, my bad.

Regarding me having to prove that the so call evidence is false; I believe traditionaldrummer has already done this. He questioned it and backed up his statements with logical thinking and facts.

According to who? That is now just a matter of opinion... should he not then back up his 'facts' with proof? As he requested of us/me..? Something like this, could go on forever..that is why I am able to leave people to their opinion if they do not accept the given 'proof'.

When he started asking questions which could not be answered, thats when "the believers" started getting irritated and resorted to insults and avioding the questions with the stereotypical "why dont you prove me wrong".

Go back and read, who started trowing insults around.

These so called Experts in the field and "clinical studies" are no better than Uri Gellar. There was a time when he had quite a following of "believers" who were smitten by his spoon bending abilities and probably wasted way too much time at home staring at cutlery.

No better? According to who? you? Exactly, this is your opinion. But he is not the topic of discussion here. And you do not believe that someone can bend a spoon with their mind... it is possible to channel energy from one object to another... some people won't even believe it if it is done right in front of them..there is more than enough information about his on on the net.

People like this are sensationalists, they exploit peoples desire to believe that there is something "magical" about themselves. It allows them to believe that they are special or have some sort of abilities which they dont, just to please their egos.

Perhaps, just perhaps, they are trying to help people...Trying to learn something new, something undiscovered.. I don't know why some of you are so against this research? Trying to understand how the human mind works, is vital. And you are wrong, it is your ego that keeps you wrapped up in this material world, too afraid to learn anything new, your ego, is what is afraid of being wrong. It is sad, that some have such little faith in the endless possibility of the human mind...

If there was any sort of evidence over the thousands of years of mankinds existence that he could invent money just by thinking about it or physically manipulate the world with his mind, then it would be a very well established and exciting science. Instead it has been put on the backburner with other Pseudosciences like telepathy. If I can make money by simply thinking about it then why cant I imagine other things out of thin air too.

The answer is simple, you don't want to..and clearly you do not have the will. You will something into being, it is not instant, it does not magically appear into thin air. You attract it to you. This has been said numerous times now in this thread, but as per usual, you guys have chosen to ignore those replies. This is exactly my point.

This whole "imagine money and you will find it" experiment (as traditionaldrummer said) is just your mind linking two events. If I am thinking about finding money, then theres a good chance I will be actively looking for money as well. And there is a good chance that someone who is actively looking for money will find it a lot quicker than someone who isnt, but that does not mean that he increased the probability of finding money with the power of his mind.

Already been discussed, numerous posts in this thread. Done.

Telepathy?
I take it you did not watch the link I provided in my previous reply to you... It really is full of answers you would hate to hear.
Your loss..I'm not losing sleep over it.

I'm not prepared to turn this thread into a debate about skeptics, so forgive me if I do not reply until something is posted that is worth replying to... I've never been fond of repeating myself...

Now I take it that you are a believer in mental manipulation of physical matter, but have you ever experienced it? Tell me how you have changed things with your mind, if you have. I am not saying that in order for it to exist then you must have experienced it but I would be interested to hear if you have.

I have attracted certain personal scenarios that would not have happened if I had not pretty much obsessed over it...this has happened numerous times. So I believe it is not just coincidence... Unfortunately, they are on a personal level, and I do not wish to share them here. I hope you can respect that.. But I'm sure there are various other members who have examples for you.

Even I am a tad skeptical at times, more wary. But I really do feel that if people are making these claims, and so may institutions are taking the time to study it, such as telepathy, etc... then it is worth looking into and keeping an open mind.

I have difficulty even meditating, it is extremely difficult for me to clear my mind. But I do trust people, I give them the benefit of the doubt, because everyone deserves that. Everyone & everything deserves a chance.



[edit on 23/01/2010 by jinx880101]

This is a fantastic thread. Referencing the OP. Very very important.
We must begin, as a species, to accept this and begin thinking in this way. We can have an enormous effect on our surroundings through conscious effort.

An example: If enough of us put our minds to it we could divert a hurricane. The energy we put into it is not added, not multiplied, IT IS SQUARED.

Many experiments have been done in this area. Here are some of the successful ones:

1) Meditation on peace experiments in the Middle East. (The Maharishi Effect)
2) Consciousness effects on water. (Masaru Emoto)
3) Consciousness effects on living plant life. (Lynne Mctaggart)
4) Art Bell and his radio audience were able to cause rain to fall during an extreme drought condition in the Midwest. (Coast to Coast radio)

The list goes on. In my opinion this cannot be denied. I believe that WE are going to be the cause of any effects we see in the 2012 time-frame. Our collective attention is going to make this happen. We may receive some for of energy boost from the energy field they talk about crossing, but our thoughts/emotions/mentality will be the directors of this energy. This is why we cannot just sit back and wait and see what will happen. We are the directors. The universe is supplying the materials (energy) but we are the builders and the tools.

[edit on 22-2-2010 by Spirit Warrior 11:11]

While I can't talk fully on the subject considering it involves certain psychoactive substances in which the discussion of which is against the policy of this forum, I can attest that there is certainly something to this whole idea.

I have a good friend of mine, we're both rather intuitively empathetic and can pretty much read peoples feelings to their core. We've done a lot of things together and have hanged out a lot.

Both me and my friend also have huge experience with what one would describe as Deja Vu. The only problem is that we typically don't call it Deja Vu do to the implications and prejudicial understanding of the concept. We both, fairly frequently, predicts things. It's never on a consistent basis of when we get these predictions which usually occur in our sleep, but when we do it's always accurate. I've explored what I would describe as dream-weaving, which I would explain as using lucid dreaming and other methods to manipulate and control how I dream. It isn't all lucid dreaming because I can often time let the dream run it's own course.

Now I can't fully explain this as I'm still exploring, but I when I start to fall asleep I can pretty much determine if I want to lucid dream or not. And sometimes, when I don't, what I dream becomes a reality in the future. It's easy to tell when I'm experiencing a prediction because when I dream I never dream about my own life or my own reality. But these predictions, these dreams, occur in what you would describe as the details of my reality. My daily habits, who I'm with, etc.

I've written down a lot of these, and I can sufficiently say that whenever these types of dreams occur, they come true. Now none of these are wild and mind blowing, because rarely in my day to day life does something utterly mind blowing, for me anyway, happen. It's typically mundane actions, but the thing that differentiates these from some dream is that the nuances of the events that take place happen EXACTLY the same later on when it happens in my waking reality. Down to what I'm wearing, what other people are wearing, and even down to the brand of cigarette they may be smoking. I haven't gotten this down to an art or practical skill yet but from my own notes I've managed to date that these predictions typically take place between 10 - 14 days after I dream them. To describe even further the detail we're talking about here, well...I've jumped into a prediction that was already midday, but during this prediction I have memory of what happened to me prior that day as well. And even these memories in my dreams of what happened before I ever was jumped into these predictions, down to the fragile nuance, proved accurately to be true.

Both my friend and I experience this. Like I've said, for us this has gone far and beyond what Deja Vu is, as I know what it is and what it feels like. What is more, is that me and him are arguable linked mentally in some capacity (ignoring the fact that we are all, in a sense, linked). We both call each other at the same time because we're both thinking of communicating with each other at the same time when we didn't need to but just had a "feeling" to. We both have transfered feelings and emotion to one another when we're not physically together. It's pretty crazy and I never believed in this sort of stuff until it started happening about a year and a half ago.

I agree with you in that the mind should be explored. It is as you say one of the most interesting unsolved phenomenon to this day. I studied Psychology at University and the first thing that anyone who has studied psychology will notice is that in psychology nothing is for certain. The truth of the matter is that people (even the experts) still cant say with 100% certainty what happens in someones head or how the mind works. There are even 5 different conflicting explanations of how something as mundane as memory or face recognition works. Psychology is not like Maths, Chemistry or Biology: there is no tangible confirmation of a theory. Humanistic Psychologists disagree with the Cognitive Psychologists, Biologists think the Behaviourists are bonkers and vice versa. Nothing is confirmed in Psychology, there are just good theories and bad theories, and that is in itself subjective. For this very reason, psychology has so many Psuedosciences attached to it. Many people hijack the ambiguity involved with Psychology, throw in some of their own ingredients and fool people into believing them. The best way I can explain it is using the Astrology/Astronomy example. When science couldnt explain the stars, they were magical. Once technology evolved to a point which enabled people to explain Astrology then the magic very quickly dissapeared, Astronomy was born. The same will happen with Psychology.

A lot of the data you quoted at the start as proof is exactly that: Intelligent peoples manipulation of the ambiguity surrounding psychology to use it to their advantage. I dont mean to direct a personal attack on anyone here who believes but many of the people you are quoting as mind control experts etc probably dont believe in it themselves. They cant do if they conduct honest experiments. I just dont like seeing people getting tricked by these people. They are in the same class as "psychics", reading you vague detials from your future (which apply to 90% of the population) and then improvising using your reactions to develop their initial scam. They know they cant read the future but it is vital for them to make sure that everyone else believes that in order to make money.

The author you quoted at the start, Braude, is a good story teller but not a source I would say was reliable. Here is an chapter from his book for you to read. Its about a lady who he interviewed. During the interview gold leaf just started appearing all over her face. I'll let you read the rest and reach your own conclusions.

www.press.uchicago.edu...

[edit on 22-2-2010 by Pryde87]

Oh and by the way, you should probably read a book called the Men who stare at goats. The US military conducted an experiment where soldiers stared at goats to try and stop their hearts. It didnt work.

You are not "believing" something if you are testing it.

Those men were testing to see if their thoughts would change physically reality, and because they were "testing," it didn't work.

You need to believe, not test.

They weren't really creating with their thoughts by using the thought of the Cows heart exploding. They were creating using the thought, "I wonder if this will work?," or more likely, "This isn't going to work." Neither thought will make a cow's heart explode, unfortunately.

Its like the depressed person asking for their "Soul Mate." They aren't really asking for their Soul Mate, they are asking to be happy. They just think a sole mate would make them happy. Since they are asking to be happy and at the same time believing another person could make them happy (which is an illusion). What they are really asking for is to be shown that another person can't make them happy. The process of showing someone that fact may involve meeting someone, having their heart broken, rinse/repeat. That will happen until they realize that people can't make them happy!

As far as my personal experience with consciously creating reality using my thoughts:

The best technique I've come up with is denying all thoughts contrary to what you're trying to do and at the same time PRETENDING that what your trying to do really will happen, almost like lying to yourself so much that you believe it. And then, the coincidence, serendipity, etc happens.

I doubt anyone will be able to prove this to you. But luckily, you can attempt it yourself. Pick something in the realm of possibility for you (because you have to believe it) and choose (child like pretending) to believe that it will happen. Deny all thoughts to the contrary. This will not be easy, and it will take practice to achieve the mental discipline required. I remember making it my only focus. The first couple days I had to simply stop the thoughts that were saying, "there is no way that this is the way it works," or "let's see if this actually works." I also had to work hard to deal with the fear that "I wont be able to do this."

Are you willing to try this? It requires Honesty (with yourself), willingness, and open mindedness.

Good Luck either way.

P.S. By the way. This is basically the phenomenon of the placebo effect, if that helps at all.

[edit on 22-2-2010 by brianmg5]

Edit, added more clarification.

[edit on 22-2-2010 by brianmg5]

[edit on 22-2-2010 by brianmg5]

Originally posted by brianmg5

Oh and by the way, you should probably read a book called the Men who stare at goats. The US military conducted an experiment where soldiers stared at goats to try and stop their hearts. It didnt work.

You are not "believing" something if you are testing it.

Those men were testing to see if their thoughts would change physically reality, and because they were "testing," it didn't work.

You need to believe, not test.


[edit on 22-2-2010 by brianmg5]

This is a great point, and one that many either do not believe or just fail to see. Great insight.

Well physics is connected to the debate because experiments have shown that knowledge actually changes the physical reality.

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by constantwonder

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by constantwonder
Perhaps all of you who like to throw around the "observer effect" and the double slit experiment should take a moment to learn what is actually meant by observer. The human mind isn't some magical "observer" and it is certainly not the only "observer"

How do you explain this...

If two identical experiments take place.
Both measure the slit the particle uses.

AFTER the experiment
The data from one experiment is deleted.

Now, looking at the back wall reveals that if the data is deleted the pattern is a wave pattern (interference) but if the data is kept the pattern is a particle pattern.

Data available = particle must use one slit
Data deleted = particle can use both slits and interfere with itself

show me this experiment. . . where is it said that taking data then deleting it would effect the system? thats backwards causality and thermodynamics (the most solid laws in the universe) says thats impossible. . . .

www.bottomlayer.com...

3. Record the measurements at the slits, but then erase it before analyzing the results at the back wall. Suppose we take our modified double slit set up -- with electron detectors at the slits -- and still leave everything intact. And we will still keep the electron detectors at the slits turned on, so that they will be doing whatever they do to detect electrons at the slits. And we will record the count at the slits, so that we will be able to obtain the results. But, we will erase the data obtained from the electron detectors at the slits before we analyze the data from the back wall.

The result upon analysis: an interference pattern at the back wall. Notice that, in this variation, the double slit experiment with detectors at the slits is completed in every respect by the time we choose to erase the recorded data. Up to that point, there is no difference in our procedure here and in our initial procedure ([pp. 15-17]), which yielded the puzzling clumping pattern. Yet, it seems that if we, in a sense, retroactively remove the electron detectors at the slits (not by going back in time to physically remove them, but only by removing the information they have gathered so that it is not available from the time of the erasure going forward into the future), we can "change" the results of what we presume is a mechanically complete experiment, so far as those results are determined by a later analysis, to produce an interference pattern instead of a clumping pattern. This is mind-boggling.

reply to post by Pryde87


Braude is a respectable professor and an expert on examining claims of the paranormal. For example the same book debunks Joey Nuzum's telekinesis abilities, as detailed in this favorable Wall St. Journal review of Braude's book:

online.wsj.com...

Luckily for readers on the skeptical side, Mr. Braude is much less forgiving of Joey Nuzum. We're treated to a blow-by-blow takedown of Mr. Nuzum, a magician who said he also had the psychokinetic ability to move objects using just the power of his mind. Mr. Braude recounts how, in the mid-1990s, the magician repeatedly frustrated the author's attempts to test his claims. The deadpan narrative has the unintentionally comic tone of a police procedural set in Paranormalville. "I obtained a catalog called Amazing and Fascinating Devices, on page 9 of which I found an ad for a device called a 'Telekinetic Enhancer,' " Mr. Braude writes, describing how he figured out that Mr. Nuzum was probably using a magician's trick involving static electricity to perform his feat of making a dollar bill spin on a needle without being touched. The Nuzum affair ends when the magician -- whose supporters see nothing amiss in his hostility to close monitoring -- melodramatically blows off a test session, accusing Mr. Braude of destroying his concentration by trying to inspect Mr. Nuzum's props. "Joe is an unreliable subject," a dismayed Mr. Braude concludes.

I should add that Braude relies on RESONANCE as his model for paranormal abilities -- which is also the same model I used in my masters thesis on qigong healing and philosophy of science. There is a definite method to train for paranormal abilities.

[edit on 22-2-2010 by drew hempel]

Originally posted by jinx880101I have difficulty even meditating, it is extremely difficult for me to clear my mind. But I do trust people, I give them the benefit of the doubt, because everyone deserves that. Everyone & everything deserves a chance.
[edit on 23/01/2010 by jinx880101]

So does the majority of people who (try to) meditate. The practice comes from a time where spiritual folk could wander off into forests and be completely alone. It is not quite the same trying to meditate in a busy urban area, not only because of the high activity during meditation but all the influences going about in society that are difficult to shut out or control.

Anyways good luck to you trying to develop yourself. Reality is most people will choose (prescription) drugs over the torment of trying to figure out answers to life's questions and that is the way society is heading. More and more people getting dependent on medicine that helps them take care of themselves or simply to get a boner and avoid depression. Soon we'll be plugged into machines and evolving cybernatically having implants from birth that will enhance our experience of reality, blocking out all of the negative and boosting the positive.

It'll be just like in that movie Wall-E where the human population travels to another planet in fully automated luxurious spaceships, in personal small transportation hover chairs indulging themselves in everything but the spiritual. That is, if humanity doesn't kill eachother before it reaches that level of technology, either way you and I are probably not going to experience it in our lifetime.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


How do you explain the Placebo Effect?

EDIT: Nevermind, I read a response of yours where you share your opinion on the Placebo Effect.

[edit on 22-2-2010 by brianmg5]

Originally posted by jinx880101
Thank you. I'm sure I read somewhere that we can unlock 'dormant' DNA by using frequency... And, what is thought? It's frequency...

If we go on the provisory (which I do) that thought manifest reality, whats stopping us? oh yes I remember now, television,cable,radio and lets not forget the all time show stopper. Debt,

If the mind is occupied there is no chance of being able to unlock it. In order to do this we must forget everything anyone has ever taught us and look for ourselves. In order to free the constraints of the mind we must reach a higher state of awareness.

It is our future to collectively focus our thoughts together as a planet at the exact same time. When this occurs wondrous things will happen, the unused portion of our brains will spark to life. As a planet together we will be able to deflect asteroids, relieve earthquake faults, eliminate droughts and floods. How can we make this happen? The entire earths population connected to a planetary public address system. Just a vision of the future I have been shown, as it will be. "Synchronicity" abounds in my life. Do your own research
www.myspace.com/torchofgod

There’s a lot to say about this. As many of the posts state, it’s a question of faith, not mechanical faith like that of the people who have been taught to pray when they were children and have stopped there because it suffices them, but of authentic faith on one’s mind and its possibilities.

Many of the things that are now known were hidden for centuries by secret societies by fear of what has happened: spiritual values descending whilst technological advances increasing. So, anybody with no scruples but with a deep knowledge of technology can carry out whatever atrocity he may think of. The religions have also stopped the development of the mind power, which IS NOT a determined person’s ability, but one common to anybody believing it. One needs to be a seeker to reach the truth, but I don’t think one choses to seek, it’s the search that choses you.

I’m on the way for almost thirty years now, I realize that I’m very far from the end, what I did not think when I started in 1981. I belong now to a meditation group, we have a chain for sending positive energy to ill people, for instance, or to help pass examinations to other people... I have never tried to bend a spoon with my mind, this doesn’t interest me much, I look forward to more abstract and spiritual matters.

Thanks for your attention.

When we all start talking about the "observer effect" we often seem to forget that it's only one interpretation of quantum mechanics. Most interpretations do not have the observer effect.

Only one fringe theory has an observer effect that is causal.

The most accepted interpretations do not even consider the observer to be important at all.

The following chart shows which interpretations include the observer as a causal component. You will see that the best accepted theories (which are also the most accurate) do not include the observeras a causal component.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9895ddd5891c.jpg[/atsimg]

en.wikipedia.org...

Not that it matters to the new agers who don't seem to care about facts at all, but there it is.

[edit on 22-2-2010 by constantwonder]

reply to post by constantwonder


The existence of potential knowledge for a conscious observer influences experimental results.

Measure and delete information = wave pattern
Measure and keep information = particle pattern

The deletion obviously takes place after the experiment is complete but before anyone looks at the pattern on the wall.

www.bottomlayer.com...

3. Record the measurements at the slits, but then erase it before analyzing the results at the back wall. Suppose we take our modified double slit set up -- with electron detectors at the slits -- and still leave everything intact. And we will still keep the electron detectors at the slits turned on, so that they will be doing whatever they do to detect electrons at the slits. And we will record the count at the slits, so that we will be able to obtain the results. But, we will erase the data obtained from the electron detectors at the slits before we analyze the data from the back wall.

The result upon analysis: an interference pattern at the back wall. Notice that, in this variation, the double slit experiment with detectors at the slits is completed in every respect by the time we choose to erase the recorded data. Up to that point, there is no difference in our procedure here and in our initial procedure ([pp. 15-17]), which yielded the puzzling clumping pattern. Yet, it seems that if we, in a sense, retroactively remove the electron detectors at the slits (not by going back in time to physically remove them, but only by removing the information they have gathered so that it is not available from the time of the erasure going forward into the future), we can "change" the results of what we presume is a mechanically complete experiment, so far as those results are determined by a later analysis, to produce an interference pattern instead of a clumping pattern. This is mind-boggling.