for those who want a moneyless society

The value of the wages in an enterprise is always just a fraction of the cost of the finished product. That is for all the factories and hotels and whatever across the planet. What does that mean ? It means people will never be able to buy all that is produced. All the money go to the business owner. But how many finished products do they buy ?

Some produce machines, components and so on. It does not matter. They get paid only when someone buys the finished product. Nobody buys it, the factory will not buy new machines or raw materials.

Solution : credit. But now they turned off the money fountain (people did not lose their jobs, then stopped buying ,it was the other way around). So people buy only what they really need, or not even that. And the system collapses. Very simple. There is no shortage of products.

Capitalism, and the "economic needs" are pyramid schemes. To satisfy the real needs it is enough for 10 % of the workforce to work. We could invent a system with no money, where people work let's say 4 years in agriculture, health care, schools and some light industry producing some stuff like clothing. And maintaining, and inventing the machines that make work easy.
Then they are changed by others. The rest of the time they do nothing and are provided with all these things for free. That does not mean they are forced to live only with those things.

Want more ? Gather people who want the same and do it. Improve your life beyond what you are provided, anyway you like. You have all the time in the world to build some house, to travel or whatever.
You will have time to live. Do stuff because you like it, or you like to help people around you - your community, this will appear when people have time to just live. That thing that many say they will do when they "retire".

Money or credit will be banned, and that means we will never end up where we are now - working not because we need what we produce , but because we need money, and we have to have something "TO DO" to get them otherwise it does not fits into the crazy philosophy of "life is hard work". Trading will be allowed, but with no money. Else people will again take from the environment more than they need - to turn it into money. To satisfy these "economic needs" entire forests are cut down, fisheries depleted, mountain tops removed, and so on.

People will do things only if they want to have them as an extra beyond the basics. When they stop wanting them they stop working. Simple. Not like the death trap of the current system : "look nobody buys what I produce, what will I do ?". Nothing. As I said, to cover real needs there is no need for 100% of the workforce to work.

From my blog : paimei01.blogspot.com...

reply to post by pai mei


Bingo! Pai Mei...this is exactly what I'm talking about! It is refreshing to see someone else express the problems within our own system. Countless paper pushers are employed, entire infrastructures are erected, a system is in place simply to support the system of getting to work and back to support your family. I agree if a cashless system were in place people would only need to work maybe one week a month. Everyone would have the basic necessities to live and people that wanted more would pursue the extra things in life. Some might simply open a hotel and greet travelers making them feel at home. Others might help construct housing. People might begin thinking about how to make life more enjoyable without regard to how to finance it.

I think it would be possible to simply have education facilities to train people using a certification process. Once attained one could simply show up to any job that interested them to provide support for it. In a way these are ideas are like meshing the native ways with the ways things currently are. We won't need non stop flights out of airports, endless hours commuting, etc. Our infrastructure would be reduced by nearly 1/4 of it's current needs and sizes. Buildings would go unused as the services they provided were designed only to support the current paradigm. Talk about truly impacting the environment for the better.

Well. Everything is possible. So is cashless society. There are a lot of possibilities how to achieve that. But right now i don't have the enough concentration for long post due to tiredness. I would only like to comment on some people rejecting cashless system.
I can assume that those people belong to wealthier part of population. They are conciously or unconciously affraid of losing their social superiority over ''lover ranking population''. So to speak.
Achieving cashless society cannot be done in short time. It will be a long procedure with a lot of sacrifices. Changing people's thinking patterns that have formed over thousands of years is not an easy undertaking.

Regards

Originally posted by kreatorSLO
I would only like to comment on some people rejecting cashless system.
I can assume that those people belong to wealthier part of population. They are conciously or unconciously affraid of losing their social superiority over ''lover ranking population''

No, we just like using cash. It's anonymous, and government and corporations cannot keep track of what you are buying. And, it's easier to cheat the government out of taxes when there is cash changing hands.

Maybe I'm confused here. I thought you were talking about getting rid of cash and conducting transactions only electronically. But some of you seem to be talking about a society where there is no measure of wealth. Two totally different ideas, the latter being wishful thinking in the extreme. There will always be a way to measure wealth, whether it is in dollars or acres or goats.

[edit on 20-2-2010 by TheComte]

reply to post by TheComte


You are right...some are talking about having no cash, and others are talking about having no tracking method to determine a reward system. I personally am in favor of a no cash system, only in that the system is held in the minds of people and cannot be hijacked. The no cash system would be a prelude to having no system of tracking wealth at all. This is why I like the concept of a resource based economy but believe it is unattainable within the current paradigm of thinking. It is possible to change the economy slowly by overlaying a no cash system in the place of the current system, that rewards not corruption or gouging or endless hours of working people, but that rewards people for their contribution to the whole.

The no cash system I developed has two tracking methods that are opposed to each other. The government and the people. When people purchase something they owe a debt to society. They can transfer this debt to someone else by working for them. Imagine going to work and the person hiring you accepts your debt as payment for your time. The employer sells their product transferring debts to the buyer. Essentially the system works the same as the current except there is never a banking establishment to get a loan from, as all the so called 'currency' belongs to a person not a bank. (I used the term 'debt' as I haven't figured out a more creative term).

Opposite that you have the government. All credits (if you will) that are paid directly to people offset their debt, as the government only works to benefit the needs of citizens. In this way the government can create work out of thin air, depending on who needs a job and what projects need to be accomplished resources being taken into consideration. As government spends their credits it starts adding up. At the end of the year these credits are equally distributed back to the people to offset the peoples debts.

This is not the entire system just a small portion; however, you can see in this system the people become the Federal Reserve in a sense and as the government pays back the credits they used the government is paying taxes to the citizens. It is our system essentially in reverse and for the benefit of the people. I designed this model to be able to be erected after a point of economic collapse or massive job losses where people are just sitting around. A subculture of society out of work could agree to the above system and begin working together overnight.

reply to post by TheComte


Well, i was reffering more or less on the people that are the most passionate supporters of this system. If you know what i mean.
Of course for the entire population your statement is correct probably.
The best sollution is something in between.

cheers

Originally posted by kreatorSLO
reply to post by TheComte

 

Well, i was reffering more or less on the people that are the most passionate supporters of this system. If you know what i mean.
Of course for the entire population your statement is correct probably.
The best sollution is something in between.

cheers

There is no imbetween. You cannot compromise with evil and slavery. What, half a slave?

Really?

This is the only right way to live and those who are not ready will either not advance or wake up and join. Because the cabal have 2012 London Olympics with ZION logo, which means the next 2 years are critical and they have proclaimed themselves as won.

They can't.

It is time to say no, and walk away.

reply to post by Unity_99


Evil and slavery are not produced by cash. People that are handling the cash are reason for ''evil and slavery''.
Removing money wont stop wrongdoings by itself. Real reasons will remain among other. By removing and/or disabeling these there can exist a limited monetary system.
There are many possibilities.

reply to post by kreatorSLO


This is true...simply taking money out of the equation does nothing, if the same people are in charge of designing the laws the govern the use of the economy. However, any system with tangible money is at risk of being corrupted. A system that is kept strictly alive in a person head can never be taken or altered.

reply to post by JPhish


Get rid of personal ownership of everything from land to cars to food and you get rid of greed.

Or do you?

If everything is shared, can there be greed?

If everything is shared, we wouldn't really need money. It would also be a perfect form of Communism.

It won't happen because of human greed and people wanting to be "above" others on the social scale. But imagine a world like we have today except money doesn't exist. Everyone works, you go to a store and take what you need just as you do now. The farmers work and provide produce, factories run and supply everything.

You take what you need without being greedy and it all happens without money. Your compensation is that everything that you need is provided and you are doing your part by being part of the "system".

If people were perfect we wouldn't need money. But we need something to motivate people to work, and to recognize how much work someone is doing.

So yes I do want a money-less society, but that would also be a perfect society, and can we have a perfect society, no.

reply to post by Wang Tang


Work for what. People need to group up and erect shelters and help each other plant gardens. With a high education system like ets have they still dream on what they want to be when they grow up... BUT the point is THERE ARE NO SLAVES and people need to volunteer for the things they want.

THERE IS NO REAL NEED FOR MUCH WORK.

Originally posted by Pitons
The world is too much populated for such societies to thrive. Humans are evolving backwards and at a fast rate imho.

I think you're right there. But if money was eliminated, all those who rely on it for survival would eventually perish, thus restoring balance.

I know it sounds harsh, but it's true.

Originally posted by Unity_99
THERE IS NO REAL NEED FOR MUCH WORK.

That's right. The main reason we need to work hard and long hours is to support the wealthy above us.

[edit on 22/2/10 by NuclearPaul]

reply to post by NuclearPaul


Its not that there isn't a need for work, there is necessities, which over time could be aided by technology, unless its all there in secret already. But this is more sharing and the flows and seasons of our lives, the other kind of thing would actually free people up to pursue their highest educations and interests without scarsity. So the amount of time we spend inventing, artwork, sharing with the world freely, recipes, culture, technology, or gathering ready hands for big projects that would benefit all (ie. geothermal nothing enviromentally against the earth, or a more futuristic project, involving earths defense, or cleaning up the planet) would have many young, uncommitted people.

Now, very few get educated past high school. Years ago the statistics were 27% only in any form of training, not just BA's or masters, or advanced programs, but even those 6 week courses in the community college, very few have anything but slave labor low wage jobs to perform, and many are left out of that in our scarsity system.

There is no limits in this system. But also, no exploitation either, and the choice to be family oriented, and develop ourselves to our potentials exists in this system as in no other.

reply to post by TheComte


i watched one of the star trek movies last night ,it is the one where zefferin cockerin makes the first warp speed flight -when they had to go back in time to save the future .
the lady from the past asked how much did this thing cost to build[enterprise]. his response was nothing as money was obsolete in his day and age as all people worked FOR AND TOWARD THE BETTERMENT OF MANKIND AS A SPECIES.
money was outlawed as it was the bane of humanity as there were those who tried to control it all and those who had nothing -no more class and no more cast system as all men are equal -amazing what we were taught and we all seem to have lost sight of as -MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL and yet we all believe THAT MONEY MAKES THE WORLD GO AROUND .i wonder what group propagated this lie to us all .
churches and their tithing
governments and their taxes.
banks and their greed.
corporate exec`s and their super inflated wages and bonuses.
and the list goes on .

all the little want to be god`s

egotistical little Hitlers who proclaim that they know what is best for us.

MONEY THE FALSE POWER AND THE FALSE GOD.

DO WE SEE THEM NOW OR ARE WE STILL BLINDED BY THEIR BULL CRAP.

There are simply to many of us (humans) that are stuck in the mine, mine, mine mode of things. Unfortently our ranks would have to be greatly thinned out for this to work. There are many other problems with this also but I dont have time to go into them right now. But it would be nice.

reply to post by picrat


Star Trek isn't real.

And it is the love of money that is the root of all evil, not money itself.

Originally posted by picrat
reply to post by TheComte

 

i watched one of the star trek movies last night ,it is the one where zefferin cockerin makes the first warp speed flight -when they had to go back in time to save the future .
the lady from the past asked how much did this thing cost to build[enterprise]. his response was nothing as money was obsolete in his day and age as all people worked FOR AND TOWARD THE BETTERMENT OF MANKIND AS A SPECIES.
money was outlawed as it was the bane of humanity as there were those who tried to control it all and those who had nothing -no more class and no more cast system as all men are equal -amazing what we were taught and we all seem to have lost sight of as -MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL and yet we all believe THAT MONEY MAKES THE WORLD GO AROUND .i wonder what group propagated this lie to us all .
churches and their tithing
governments and their taxes.
banks and their greed.
corporate exec`s and their super inflated wages and bonuses.
and the list goes on .

all the little want to be god`s

egotistical little Hitlers who proclaim that they know what is best for us.

MONEY THE FALSE POWER AND THE FALSE GOD.

DO WE SEE THEM NOW OR ARE WE STILL BLINDED BY THEIR BULL CRAP.

Money is NOT the root of all evil. Endless persuit of money is. Greed is. With the way we live now we know we have drilled into us that money will make your life easier. Its when people get greedy and want more then they really need that causes problems. Also when someone has nothing causes the problems.

reply to post by jmotley


Money isn't the root of all evil pride is the root of all evil.