Regarding the pilot that crashed his plane in Austin...

What I find annoying is how people and the media feel the need to label him and put him in a corner... Leftist Communist Socialist... or Right Wing Tea Party Activist.... It's all bullsh*t....

The media cannot accept the truth... that maybe the guy was neither... That maybe the people are smarter... Maybe their little magic glowing box of mind control isn't 100% effective. Maybe people know the stuff on TV is bullsh*t spin.

And maybe the guy was just a dude who was Anti-Corruption and Anti-Greed. Maybe he was Anti-StickingItToTheLittleMan. Maybe he was simply PRO-AMERICAN.

I think the truth is in his writing... He is clearly Anti-Big Brother... and that applies to both sides.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Pray tell, then, what can we do about this corrupt system of taxation? I agree that one man flying one plane into one building won't yield good results, but the desperation this man felt came from the realization that there is nothing we can do to change this system that is controlled by the wealthy elite. We either deal with our corrupt system, and, like the horse in "Animal Farm" just work harder, or.... what? Vote? Protest? Blog? Would he have been better off flying his plane into Congress? Or maybe going on a hunger strike and dying on the front lawn of the White House?

Do you think our system is not corrupt? That we should all be gratefull for our "free" society and take the lumps with the good? Can you not envision a situation that would cause you to take up arms? I think we've crossed that line a long time ago, but I still haven't come up with ( or heard) of an effective strategy to affect change. I'm on this site hoping that someday a good idea will occur. Until then, I think we'll see more acts of desperation in reaction to the fascist system that we all live in.

reply to post by spiritualzombie

The media cannot accept the truth... that maybe the guy was neither... That maybe the people are smarter... Maybe their little magic glowing box of mind control isn't 100% effective. Maybe people know the stuff on TV is bullsh*t spin

No, the media can accept the truth just fine, they just can't print it.

True, their attempts at manipulation aren't 100% effective, but most of the time they are.

It would be great if people knew the stuff on TV is bullsh*t, but they don't.

And this is one of the biggest reasons we are in this mess.

reply to post by theonlyrusty


Just calm down. I served my country, and I DO look around at times and wonder if the time I did was wasted. There are times after that look around that... well, it doesn't matter what. You, me, nor anybody else can expect Americans to take it all seriously. Yes, the terrorists are in Washington, the enemy is on Wall Street, the propagandists own the media, and, honestly, there isn't thing one we can do about them. Talk about revolution, resistance, etc... all you want. It isn't happening. Supposedly there's enough like minded individuals to make it happen, but I don't see anybody moving to take the inevitable bullets. I don't see anybody that's making the call with what it takes to step up, stand in front of that tank, and get smashed. Know why? Because deep down inside you all know it would be for nothing. That's right, nothing. America reeks, it stinks to high heaven of rot and decay. Lady Liberty is now just a dead whore that those in power keep using for their own ends. Oh they trot her out once in awhile like a tasteless version of Weekend at Bernies, everyone ooo's and aaa's, but in the end she's gotta be put back.

America is lost. It just a matter of letting it die, picking up the pieces, and hopefully putting something together that's better, more resiliant, uncorruptable. Me? Well, I"m waiting for that death rattle, the smart ones will also.

Originally posted by SpacePunk
reply to post by theonlyrusty

 

Lady Liberty is now just a dead whore that those in power keep using for their own ends. Oh they trot her out once in awhile like a tasteless version of Weekend at Bernies, everyone ooo's and aaa's, but in the end she's gotta be put back.

OMG...I know I should not find humor but what a great line. Are you a writer, because that was fantastic. Love it.

reply to post by cindymars


Admittedly, I had to stop after I wrote that because I was laughing so hard. I didn't realize the total absurdity of it until it was completely out, but that happens. You are not the first person to ask me that, and probably not the last. Unfortunately a co-worker of my wife keeps saying things like "You are like a sober Hunter Thompson, just don't go shooting yourself." I always reply, "That's someone elses job." The unfortunate thing is that I just can't read the guy at all.

reply to post by SEEWHATUDO


I couldnt have put it better myself, and isnt the point of us talking about what these people are doing to society supposed to make us aware that we are all in the same boat here, if you are not wealthy or in a position of power within the government,polotics,coorperations or any other elite group. Than all you are is the general public and to them the general public is just a number, a statistic we are not even considered people to them so why are we the genral public arguing over what we already know when we should be forming somekind of revolution .the genral public could out number them by the thousands but people can seem to get past all this hostility and fighting over nothing

Freedom is not material possession. You gotta get over that in the first place.

Originally posted by SpacePunk
reply to post by cindymars

 

Admittedly, I had to stop after I wrote that because I was laughing so hard. I didn't realize the total absurdity of it until it was completely out, but that happens. You are not the first person to ask me that, and probably not the last. Unfortunately a co-worker of my wife keeps saying things like "You are like a sober Hunter Thompson, just don't go shooting yourself." I always reply, "That's someone elses job." The unfortunate thing is that I just can't read the guy at all.

You should keep writing my friend

Thank you for posting the manifesto. I see now why no news agency read the whole thing, it's way too long for broadcast television.

Reading between the lines it looks to me like the guy spent the last 30 years looking for different ways to bypass the tax laws. It is also appearant that the wasn't very good at it.

I don't like the IRS at all but the law is the law and I have no sympathies for someone who deliberately breaks the law.

He starts off by mentioning that he got together with a group of others who studied the tax laws looking for loopholes. While he doesn't say so explicitly, he mentions the organized religion exemption and so I am guessing that he and his buddies tried to get a religious exemption. This is one of the oldest tricks in the book and is one of the best ways to get audited.

The tax code that he mentions excluded highly trained professionals from filing under 1099, if they were defacto employees. I fell under this one myself and it was an annoyance but not an issue that would have caused me to lose my life savings as Mr. Stack implied. I am guessing that Mr. Stack was trying to avoid tax withholding with the intention of under reporting his income.

The rest goes on and on about his various tax problems and the penalties for being caught cheating.

It should be obvious that Mr. Stack was a tax evader that had built a scenario up in his head that he had a right to cheat on his taxes. I put him in the same catagory as bootleggers and other scofflaws, except that bootleggers don't fly planes into buildings.

If looking to use all tax loopholes available makes one a tax evader, then almost everyone in this country with any net worth at all is a tax evader.

That's why people have sweep accounts, put up long fences with a few cows on their property, start little companies to provide something for their other company, ect.

I read a story yesterday about 3 middle eastern women who were caned for sex out of wedlock. They all agreed the punishment was fair and it was the right thing that they were caned and they all said they learned a great deal from it and were encouraged to be better women because of the caning.

This mentality reminds me of the people who say no to affordable healthcare, and say yes to income tax. 'Insurance companies are good for us... I don't want free healthcare... and it's my duty as a good American to pay a tax for the labor I work.'

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz

Originally posted by articulus
I find the fact that so many people here at ATS are expressing support for this action and individual - simply because he posted an angry screed on the internet before doing this - quite disturbing. People keep starting redundant threads to praise this maniac, and posting his "manifesto" again and again as though it contained wisdom. It's evidently true that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter...... This man was no different from a religious zealot on the other side of the world, except that he has found sympathizers among people who consider themselves "patriots." Dissatisfaction with tax code and government is never an excuse for violence.
[edit on 2/18/10 by articulus]

You know, you're absolutely right.

And, an interesting analogy. What DO this guy and the Islamic terrorists have in common? (despite BOTH being despicable actions)

Their rage against one. Common. Entity: The US Government.

Starting to get the picture?

[edit on 2/18/2010 by SquirrelNutz]

Wow!!

SquirrellNutz - Powerful reply!!

This thread reminds me of discussions I had with people after seeing the movie - "V for Vendetta".

Appears to be a similar situation with Joe Stack in the role of V.

Hero or Villain?

Should people be afraid of the government or government afraid of the people?

Originally posted by boomadatigger

Originally posted by l neXus l
reply to post by brainwrek

 

your argument is null, yes there are a few people like that who say they are just doing their job, but not everyone

So when one wages an attack one has to gauge who is innocent or who isn't? Sorry buddy, fights aren't waged like that. As far as I'm concerned those people chose their side whether fully aware of what they were doing or not. The time for rational debate or working within the system has long passed. I think deep down inside the majority of Americans know that on some level. You know, the next poster knows, etc. What everyone is doing when they suggest trying to work within a system that is RUN by the very entity they are trying to fight. is grasping at straws. Hoping beyond hope that maybe THIS TIME things will change. But deep down inside you know it won't. And that scares you.

This is the classic arguement from the movie - "The Matrix".


It's ok for Neo and Trinity and Morpheus to kill or cause to be killed all those innocent people and security guards. Because.... they were not yet "AWAKE". It was ok to kill them all in glorious bullet time and let the Architect sort them out. Because whether they were fully aware/awake or not, they had made their choice for the Matrix.

And yet there are many people like Cypher who don't want to be awake, who would oppose the freedom fighters, who like the gilded cage they live in.

"Cypher: You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize?

[Takes a bite of steak]

Cypher: Ignorance is bliss."

reply to post by hadriana


The key is legal loopholes. I think that the manifesto makes it very obvious that Mr. Stack was involved multiple times in illegal loopholes and he got caught. Rule number one is not to break the law. Rule number two is not to get caught. Rule number three is pay your fine and don't do it again. I think that it is fair to say that Mr. Stack broke all of the rules.

Originally posted by lunarminer
reply to post by hadriana

 

The key is legal loopholes. I think that the manifesto makes it very obvious that Mr. Stack was involved multiple times in illegal loopholes and he got caught. Rule number one is not to break the law. Rule number two is not to get caught. Rule number three is pay your fine and don't do it again. I think that it is fair to say that Mr. Stack broke all of the rules.

The God-Rules.

Well, after reading the rant by Joe Stack, I am a little worried. I had been shot and written off as a fatality before an EMT discovered a faint pulse and brought me to the ER of our major Shand's Trauma Center. I had 23 major surgeries of 2.5 years and am glad to be a survivor. However, I did not file any income tax returns those years of continuous operations, nor the three years after that I was not able to return to work. Joe Stack alludes to a $10,000 penalty for not filing when he had no income in his rant. I am refering to this part of his rant;

"To survive, I was forced to cannibalize my savings and retirement, the last of which was a small IRA. This came in a year with mammoth expenses and not a single dollar of income. I filed no return that year thinking that because I didn’t have any income there was no need. The sleazy government decided that they disagreed. But they didn’t notify
me in time for me to launch a legal objection so when I attempted to get a protest filed with the court I was told I was no longer entitled to due process because the time to file ran out. Bend over for another $10,000 helping of justice."

Am I up the creek because I didn't file those years I made no money? I wasn't hiding anything and family took care of me until I returned to full duty and back to the tax rolls as part of it. Does anyone know enough about the tax law to know if you are required to file when your income is zero from all sources?

reply to post by spirit_horse

Does anyone know enough about the tax law to know if you are required to file when your income is zero from all sources?

If you go to IRS.gov, download instructions for 1040A or 1040 it will tell you the limit.

It used to be that something like 2500 dollars or less didn't have to file. I think it is based on the amount of the standard deduction for one person.

Hope that helps.

Haha I think Spacepunk said it like it is what a profound statement (I agree that you should keep writing Spacepunk ) .


I pray to the Lord that this does not get out of control and many get caught in the middle of this mess (the tea party etc which I am not a part of but can certainly see their message as valid ) .But I sure feel in my heart it is really just the beginning of a huge mess .

reply to post by spirit_horse


Mr. Stack's rant very conveniently picks and chooses facts to put a positive spin on his actions.

You are not required to file a return in a year in which you made no income. Once you return to work and you report income, the IRS will send you a letter asking you why you failed to file. Being disabled either temporarily or permanently is a valid reason, so is having no income, and being out of the country, and serving on active duty in a combat zone. These are the ones that I know about and there are others.

If Mr. Stack was fined for not filing that is because he had income, owed taxes, and did not file. This is the only scenario that will result in a fine being levied. The IRS will actually forgive you for not filing, if you are owed a refund or if you do not owe.

The penalties for not filing and owing taxes are severe though and Mr. Stack obviously got caught by these. Most likely Mr. Stack had 1099 income and he didn't realize that the IRS gets a copy of that. By the way, it usually takes the IRS about 3 years to catch up with a non-filer and so Mr. Stack was a bad boy for a long time.