Ufology and Hoaxes

Why are UFOs so often referred to as "cigar-shaped"? Every time I hear that, I picture something like this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/e373d81d07ee66c0.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by Kandinsky


I believe it is a bit of a misrepresentation to call Adamski a well known hoaxer whilst including the UFO pictures you have (are they from Adamski or Maier ?).

Sure enough he is a well known hoaxer, the shy alien shot alone is enough to support that. However, his earlier pictures and videos have never been "debunked".

Most people in a mental asylum were sane at an earlier point in their lives.

PS Please though I don't want to turn this into a thread about Adamski.

Edited to add after re-reading azzllin's post I agree with what has been said about Maier and there appear to be many similarities between the two.

[edit on 18-2-2010 by chunder]

Great post,

A lot of people laugh about that ray gun in the op picture, but I have seen the burnt oval shaped holes that it shoots through trees before... It might look fake, but once you see something it shot at like a big tree with a 50 cent piece sized oval hole through it made a believer out of me.....

I'm not allowed to start a thread yet. Or I just don't know how. Here's a free one for whoever wants it...
www.cnn.com...

reply to post by chunder


The alien woman might seem fake to you and me, but there are things about her clothes she is wearing that produced a few questions that have never been answered. To look at her clothes and that gun would make any sane person laugh , but there are things I doubt that you are aware of about her. In Ufology there is a ton of strangeness as we all know, but that doesn't mean that some goofy looking thing might not actually turn out to be the real thing.

My first post so thought a light hearted post was in order. This is from a classic show in U.K which I think was a great hoax .

www.youtube.com...




[edit on 18-2-2010 by Tinkir]

reply to post by Kandinsky


G'day Kandinsky

Thank you for your thoughtful & well written commentary.

I will watch this thread develop with great interest.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

[edit on 18-2-2010 by Maybe...maybe not]

Flag for this thread, very important point!

For years I have believed the better UFO cases presented on the Internet. But when I started to look for other explanations, even the best "proofs" went to pieces.

I have really underestimated these points:

1) Unskilled observers. Phoenix lights: Military aircraft flying in formation at night perceived as one big transparent (!) UFO. Countless sightings of Chinese lanterns, reflections in windows, poorly understood effects of photo and video equipment, etc.

2) Deliberate hoaxes and lies. CGI (Moscow pyramid), but more importantly actual material objects like balloons, kites, R/C toys and man-made crop circles.

3) Spiritual delusion, paranoia and outright mental illness. Blossom Goodchild, GFL, etc.

4) Natural phenomena not yet understood by science. Hessdalen lights.

All this untruth has taken a lot of my time and I finally came to this conclusion:

If a case could be reproduced by human technology or natural phenomena it is not an alien spacecraft and I am not going to waste my time with it.

So, unfortunately, these days only sightings merit further attention, for which there are several independent witnesses and which could not be reproduced by a team of dedicated and skilled engineering students. Or physical evidence, made publicly available.

I am fully aware that this might not do justice to a few genuine cases, but for the sake of truth and progress in UFO research these restrictive guidelines should be applied. It would make the field less attractive for con artists trying to rip off credulous people and it would help focus the resources.

Having said the above, I want to make it clear that I am convinced that earth has been and is being visited by beings from other solar systems. But we must take care not to project our spiritual needs into UFOs and turn this into a religion. Let us not be guided by wishful thinking, but by honest observation.

The following is one (of the few) cases that merit further attention even using my strict criteria:
UFO releases intelligent moving spheres!! First ever video footage!

Originally posted by antideceit
Great post,

A lot of people laugh about that ray gun in the op picture, but I have seen the burnt oval shaped holes that it shoots through trees before... It might look fake, but once you see something it shot at like a big tree with a 50 cent piece sized oval hole through it made a believer out of me.....

But did you see it actually shoot the big hole in the tree? If not, then there is simply no context for the picture and therefore cannot be related in any way other than through Meier's testimony.

That's when it becomes a matter of faith or belief as opposed to fact.

Hang on... were you being sarcastic? LOL!

IRM



Kandinsky,

Great thread and well balanced. I really enjoyed reading your Op!

S&F4U my friend!

IRM

reply to post by Kandinsky


Great post Kadinsky! My thoughts exactly. Flagged and starred. I was getting a little sick of reading about all the pedo conspiracies, so this is a breath of fresh air.

I have to ask, what do you think or how do you categorize all of the unverifiable testimony of people with recovered memories?

Dave

Originally posted by Kandinsky
People lie for a number of reasons...attention, notoriety, mental illness and sometimes good old fashioned mischief. Some incidents are just for the sheer amusing hell of it. The subject is also infested by people with agendas more elaborate than this.

Hi Kandinsky,

Interesting thread. Starred and flagged.

Just wanted to add a couple of additional reasons behind hoaxes:

(1) Scientific experimentation : There have been a few interesting hoaxes which (at least according to the hoaxers) were done primarily to test the responses of witnesses and ufologists, i.e. they were conducting an experiment.

(2) Art : Apart from the obvious example of crop-circle makers, several UFO videos and events have been hoaxed by individuals that considered they were creating works of art. The audience response is part of the art-work. Several crop-circle hoaxers have branched out into this type of UFO "artwork" in the last decade or two.

(3) Money - I don't think this one arises as some people think (with plain mischief being far more common...), but at least some characters in the history of ufology seem to be have been prepared to lie in order to make money.

I'm not sure what "agendas more elaborate than this" you have mind (e.g. government disinformation), or the relevant hoaxes.

I'd be interested in clarification of your thoughts on those "more elaborate" agendas.

Also, I think one of the things that is most commonly misunderstood about hoaxes is that generally they involve far less effort/resources than people think. For example, some hoaxed UFO videos which were discussed on ATS for days on end during (from memory) about 2008 were created by one artist in a few minutes each...

All the best,

Isaac

[edit on 18-2-2010 by IsaacKoi]

Adamski is a prime example of the Titanic story I talked about earlier in the thread...except, that it is far more than coincidence when it happens to the same guy!

Adamski wrote a fictional story about the very visitations he later claimed really happened to him, before his alleged encounters. THAT seems more than a bit fishy...and of course, there are the issues with his photos and the incubators...

Don't mean to derail though.

reply to post by Kandinsky


well put together thread on hoaxes= But you are AWARE of that we have proof per today of aliens existense right? and that its actually living alien on this planet now..NOT fiction.

reply to post by Gazrok
The Titanic story and the earlier fictional account is definitely interesting. Art imitating life.......and occasionally seeming to dictate life? It's interesting to contemplate.

Raising the spectre of Adamski isn't derailing at all. Most people who've read about him, consider him a hoaxer. I can't think of a credible researcher that has any doubt. Again, it's an art creating reality conundrum. His book described aliens that were benevolent. Later on he claimed to be in contact with benevolent aliens. Here we are decades later and that myth still lives. Hell, it's stronger than it ever was. Exopolitics is founded on these ideals and use the same methods as Adamski to spread their message.

A lot of ATS members still entertain the possibility that Adamski was truthful. I imagine it validates their belief in the Exopolitics position?

reply to post by IsaacKoi

I'm not sure what "agendas more elaborate than this" you have mind (e.g. government disinformation), or the relevant hoaxes. I'd be interested in clarification of your thoughts on those "more elaborate" agendas.

Thanks for your post. I agree there are many more motivations for hoaxing than I mentioned...none of which are black and white.

I was considering the Roswell Incident. The number of twists and turns that have been made to explain what happened that day have been elaborate. Such is the level of confusion that men like Frank Warren, George Knapp and Stan Friedman have walked away from the mystery. It always draws them back, but their frustration at trying to tease the facts from the fiction and misdirection is expressed in interviews. It reminds me of Marlowe in Heart of Darkness and his description of a mystery not being the kernel, but the layers wrapped around it.

Furthermore, a number of popular cases have seen official explanations released that undermine or diffuse perceptions of the event. The element of doubt is brought to bear. Hynek and Klass are good examples of this. Arguably, such actions have made fools of believers and fomented more distrust in authority. The result makes fertile breeding ground for hoaxers.

reply to post by SacredLore
Good points You'll be a good ATSer.

I'm not 'convinced' that we've been visited by ET...it's too strong a term. A lot of the accounts are very persuasive and lend themselves to speculation. My speculation isn't always as skeptical as my posts suggest. Keep an open mind within reason.

The list of points you make are definitely valid. It seems too many fans consider questioning the 'sacred cows' of Ufology as unthinkable. Arbitrageur (ATS member) wrote a thread that challenged the legendary JAL Flight incident. That's one that I believed 90%. Since the thread it's less than that, but still on the good list.

We shouldn't cling to our favourite cases out of loyalty or dogmatism. No matter how much it hurts our pride...bin them and move on. There are plenty of excellent cases that hold water and deserve interest.

Thanks to everyone that's posted or flagged this thread, I appreciate it and have starred each post.

I'd like people to post about any other hoaxes they know of or suspect. This subject is just full of them. It's not trying to 'debunk,' deny, denigrate, dismiss or diminish the genuine phenomena of UFOs and the mystery around them. Sharing some of the clangers makes the subject a little bit clearer.

A huge hoax that I remember is the notorious Alien Autopsy hoax by Ray Santilli. It stormed the UFO magazines and expectations were high. Rumours had been circulating for some time that the Roswell crash involved dead aliens. An autopsy of the critters was part of a growing legend and a guy claimed to have the footage....

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b6f594a5b112.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/50a38c2c59d5.jpg[/atsimg]

The footage and Ray Santilli was ultimately deemed a hoax for financial gain. Again, the mythology that led to the hoax is far-reaching. UFO crash stories go back at least a 130 years. Dead UFO pilots reach back to the late 1890s with the The Aurora 1897 probable hoaxed UFO crash...

One of the strangest cases involving alleged crashed UFOs, occurred nearly 100 years ago in the town of Aurora, Texas. Many people believe this to be one of many hoaxes started around this time. The year was 1897 during which the U.S. was besotted with hundreds of sightings of strange airships. The story first appeared on 19th April 1897, and claimed that a strange airship had appeared over the town of Aurora. The craft then apparently crashed into a windmill tower and exploded.

Some of the material recovered had strange hieroglyphic symbols on it. Also amongst the wreckage was that of an 'alien' life form which the townsfolk buried in the local cemetery. Several UFO researchers have tried to uncover some supportive documentation with vary success.

A few witnesses were still around when the incident was investigated around 1966 - 1977 and some of these gave evidence stating that the story was essentially true. However, most of the evidence uncovered by researchers indicates that the story is nothing more than an elaborate hoax used to drum up interest in the town. In fact researchers discovered that no windmill had been at the site in question and that the site was owned by the local mayor.

Do you recognise the themes here? Crashes, hieroglyphics (Roswell and Kecksburg UFO crash ), dead aliens and no evidence. The lack of evidence leads to suspicions of cover-ups and we're back on the UFO Ferris Wheel again. Round and round. Chasing our own tales!

The field is littered with genuine hoaxes and we should accept the fact. The Paracast have just re-launched the UFO Hall of Shame and there are more people in the Hall of Shame than The Hall of Fame. The guys in each Hall are there because they deserve to be there...

Despite how this thread appears to cast doubt on Ufology, it's trying to generate discussion. Underlying the hoaxes is a pattern of tags, keywords, commonalities, traits and whatever else. It all raises questions about why the phenomena and subject seems to emulate the hoaxes and fictions? It's a frustrating puzzle

great thread this, fair play, its good to see some intellectual, thought based responses too

im a wanna believer ,if that makes sense !!

i think its a pretty slim chance that, given all the KNOWN planetary systems that could support life, we are the only one that does, and considering we can develope global travel and communications in less than 100 years, it also stands to reason, (IMO) that other life could have developed technologies far beyond our comprehension,

BUT i digress from my point....

i WANT to believe, but does that make me automatically more susceptable to the idea of aliens/origin of man/visitation/abductions etc. ??

i like to think im intelligent, well educated and level headed enough to formulate an even opinion on these matters but with such compelling and contraversial "evidence" how can we sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak ?

have our world governments covered up ufo information ?
i read some of the recently released documentation from the u.k. MOD and they come across very half arsed about the issue, like they might investigate if they get chance kind of attitude.. ?

are the lack of full TRUE government investigations SOME sort of proof that its not true as they arent taking any real serious invetsigations into the phenomina or is this the smoke screen ?

thanks for your time, i invite your comments

I would like to add the story that made me join ATS - the drones.

The first Drone thread on ATS

That thread should be required reading for new ATS members.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
A huge hoax that I remember is the notorious Alien Autopsy hoax by Ray Santilli. It stormed the UFO magazines and expectations were high. Rumours had been circulating for some time that the Roswell crash involved dead aliens. An autopsy of the critters was part of a growing legend and a guy claimed to have the footage....

Great thread Kandinsky, star and flag!

I wanted to believe that alien autopsy video, so I was disappointed to find out it's a hoax. But after reading in this thread some people still believe parts of Billy Meier's story, I have to wonder if some people still think this video isn't a hoax too? I think it's a hoax.

The crop circles aren't so much hoaxes as works of art, especially now that they've admitted making the circles, have websites explaining how they did it etc.

Historically the percentages of UFO cases attributed to hoaxes has been low, maybe 1% or less depending on the study, so out of a year with 1000 sightings reported, only 10 of those might be hoaxes.

However this percentage might be too low for the youtube phenomenon, where sometimes artists will create a fictional work identified as CG, then someone will "steal" it, re-package it and repost it on youtube as a real UFO, and then you've got some CG artists that don't bother to mention it's a fake in the first place. So if you account for CG related evidence, I think the percentage of hoaxes probably goes up from that historical 1% figure.

But if you exclude the youtube CG stuff, I think the percentage of hoaxed incidents is still quite low.

What bothers me are the cases with suggestions they've been hoaxed but nobody's ever proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt, like this photo of the kid on a ladder a few feet away from where the McMinnville UFOs would have been hung up and pushed around by someone standing on a ladder:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/42b0f386da1f.jpg[/atsimg]

And the conclusion of a skeptics paper shows we can only suspect this case might be a hoax but it's never been proven beyond any doubt:
An Investigation of the McMinnville UFO Photographs

it is clear that the witnesses’ story of supposedly photographing a UFO cannot be accepted at face value. It is difficult to see what advantage would be gained in altering the alleged circumstances of the photographs, but the scientific investigator must guard against becoming an apologist. No serious researcher would contend that a photograph is of any value whatsoever in establishing the existence of an extraordinary object unless it is solidly corroborated by the testimony of one or more witnesses.

There exists no factual basis for rejecting the following hypothesis: at approximately 8:20 in the morning of May 11, 1950, a small asymmetrical model was suspended from overhead telephone wires by two very thin threads. It was photographed once, then reoriented either by hand or by its assumption of a pendulum-type motion, and photographed again.

Of course, this does not "prove" that the photographs do not show an extraordinary flying object, but it has shown that there is no reason to believe that they do. The non-existence of such objects, as well as that of werewolves, witches, and unicorns, can never be "proven."

So while it's not a proven hoax, I tend to think it probably is. I think we need to maintain a healthy skepticism as well as an open mind, though striking that balance can be tricky if you want to not get fooled but also not miss out on a real phenomenon.



[edit on 19-2-2010 by Arbitrageur]