Reasons To Believe

reply to post by pplrnuts

The energy that is used to write these threads that express the displeasure of the alleged hate and persecution towards the wonderful UNchrist-like Christians, could be much better spent in creating a thread that attempts to present a more convincing argument to support your set of beliefs then that from the Bible. The Bible is simply a book written by man, CLAIMING, CLAIMING! to be inspired by a divine being which is FILLED with an alarming amount of contradictions, and absolute absurdities mixed with violence, murder, rape, sexism, racism etc, etc, etc. Spending the energy to open threads where your faith can be supported by ANYTHING, ANYTHING! other than such a book of absolute failure would be a much better option to try to convince others that the faith is nothing more than fairy-tale. Just some courteous advice.

If you know of someone who is a christian and acts unchrist-like what does that tell you? We all known by how we are. Do not let someone who says one thing and do another restrict you from the truth. You know that everyone, yes even Christians sin everyday right? Each individual has to work his own way out. If someone fails a test, are you going to just say,"Well I am not taking that test."

Once again I hear the word contradictions. Please, please, please explain these contradictions to me. Anything other than a book? Okay. How about a feeling? No? Okay. How about an experience? Oh...probably not. lol. May God bless you with wisdom and the ability to look inside of yourself for the truth.

Originally posted by virraszto
Is there a conspiracy in your op?

Originally posted by Conclusion
You know who you are. If you do not open yourself to even the slightest possibility that there are things out there that you cannot understand, let alone explain, then you are wasting your time. And the clock is ticking.

That could go both ways, you know. If you are walking around with religious blinders on, you have a very narrow view on everything. Most people who disregard religion do so because they open their eyes and see that there is more out there than they were lead to believe.

[edit on 16-2-2010 by virraszto]

lol. Straight is the way and narrow is the gate that leads to Heaven.

reply to post by randyvs


Wow. That is one of the most profound things I have every read. You are one that I could definitely learn from.



Star for you.

Originally posted by Conclusion

First off I would like to state that I do understand why you do not believe. You stopped looking.

I see it another way entirely. The reason I stopped believing is because I STARTED LOOKING. I started really looking at what I was told to believe and at what I was trying desperately, passionately, to believe in my heart. I started from scratch looking for truth and understanding that even if the truth casts doubt on my previous beliefs I couldn't just throw out truth...

And that's the thing, I'd been programmed by religion to throw out truth in favor of whatever was written in the Bible.

I also did a great deal of looking when I was a Christian, before any doubts, I sought God with every bit of my soul begging him to change my life and transform my spirit and for a while the warm fuzzy feeling I got from heartfelt prayer to a God I truly believed was there was enough to keep my faith going. The problem was the moment I stopped praying I went back to being average American teenager, dirty jokes and swear words and sinful thoughts. Needless to say I spent my teen years wracked with guilt wondering why God was silent and waiting for the Rapture, waiting to be left behind by God or taken up... waiting to burn or be redeemed and unsure of which side I would end up on any given day. Do you know what that's like? Viewing every newstory with guilt stricken paranoia afraid that this story might be the big one, the announcement of the rapture and the knowledge that I would be going to Hell?

God remained silent no matter how I called and that helped lead me to doubt the Bible and everything I was taught. And once I felt safe doubting, once I understood that my beliefs were hollow and valueless without questioning them, my mind was opened and I was able to start the search for truth from scratch.

So you are dead wrong, I did my searching and I still am searching and if there is a higher power, a deity (I do not rule it out 100%) than he/she/it knows where to find me and knows that only direct intervention or direct proof, not blind faith based on a flawed book and bizarre belief system or the anecdotal evidence of someone who already believes, will get me to believe.

Explain to me how the morning star became satan while having no free will.

reply to post by SaturnFX


The answer is simple, you don't know anything about which you speak.
Because the Angels obviously have free will too. What makes you think they don't ?

here is the contradiction. God created a being that has free will, God also understands pain, torture, etc...God created beings to be tortured endlessly without hope of ever getting back into the good graces of God.

Also when you speak of God as if he does exist, you are not alowed to sell him short. If he exists he is more intelligent than I am. I assure you I
am not this stupid. So rest your neck.

[edit on 16-2-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


We don't hear "personal buddah" because it doesn't get the response. Middle America knows nothing about buddah.More importantly, a suburban mom won't be upset their child is listening to it. But "My own. Personal. Jesus" oh noes the world is ending. It's a ploy, a cheap ploy to sell cds and tickets. But from a song writers point of view, it speaks to that age where we are all trying to find that one thing that is above all. Not necessarily above all celestial things, but your love...i hope that helps.

As for that Alice in Chains song, I think you have the interpretation wrong. It is a song about censorship.

He is kept "in a box" by the industry to only say or do certain things, that's the simple answer.

To take the religious point though, some would argue that religion, and specifically Christianity has given us our moral values as a country. People with these morals have rose to power, and they control what gets put out and what hasn't i.e. "Feed my eyes, now you've sewn them shut" He has been given all this info, but only what they are wanting him to have.

I interpret it as he is litterly calling out to Jesus to save him. He has been stuck in this crap box "I am the man in the box, buried in my (expletive)"

His "maker" is the industry and the false prophets that interpret the bible way to far. Those who interpret the bible word for word, and have since spread that to the mainstream.

Sorry..Alice in Chains is one of my favorite bands. this is my 2nd favorite song of theirs. If you still believe differently that's fine, just trying to give a different interpretation.

Originally posted by randyvs

Explain to me how the morning star became satan while having no free will.

reply to post by SaturnFX

 

The answer is simple, you don't know anything about which you speak.
Because the Angels obviously have free will too. What makes you think they don't ?

Oh, just that silly bible thing that keeps me thinking that they dont...(christians still use the bible for occasional reference, right?)

Psalm 103:20-21:
"Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure."

reply to post by SaturnFX


Your assuming that the angels (Satan was an angel, a very powerful one) weren't created with free will. I'll have to double check, but I'm pretty sure there is a reference in the bible to the judgement of the angels, after the rebellion. The judgement and the rebellion itself implies that the angels had a choice, or "free will".

reply to post by SaturnFX

"Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure."

So let me ask once more, what makes you think they don't have free will?

super man tan ta da daaa!

Personal. Jesus" oh noes the world is ending. It's a ploy, a cheap ploy to sell cds and tickets. But from a song writers point of view, it speaks to that age where we are all trying to find that one thing that is above all. Not necessarily above all celestial things, but your love...i hope that helps.

When the musicians themselves are asked, they say the same thing
this is what sells. Satan sells. Kind of gives a different meaning to the term
sell out or sold out I think.

[edit on 16-2-2010 by randyvs]

[edit on 16-2-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


We have been taught that the thing that separates us from angels is free will. After all, why would anyone create two of the identical things. And hell, after an ETERNITY of being a servant, I don't care if you are a deity or not, I want a darn break for an eon or so! (that was in jest, but I think the idea will be seen)

I have asked this very question about the morning star in my theology classes and it's always cast aside as grasping at straws, or just being a questioning buffoon.

The whole hell thing has always bothered me.

We are told by religion that we can never fathom what God is. this is beat into us pretty much, but we are to believe that he is there, and despite all the bad things that happen he works "in mysterious ways"


But plain and simple I don't get if someone just plain doesn't know, or like me, have spent so much time searching and just didn't find it, that any just and loving being would cast us aside in such a manner. I've said this to my priest when I first started questioning "If the god you believe in does that, then this is not the god for me"

Ex: I once, while talking to my own mother, referred to one of my girlfriends mothers as mom. The pain on her face made me want to cry. She got over it though once she understood I didn't know the pain it would cause, and it was a real loose use of the word.

That's the god I'd believe in.

Reasons to believe..cool title.
Here are my reasons not to.
1.Most "churches" have tax numbers and are therefore about one thing....money.
2. If a church doesnt have a tax number its most likely a cult or some other type of extremist org.
3.All "God" based religions are based on what some guy or gal said that "God" told them. (aka divine revelation)
4.Besides basics such as there was indeed a city named Sodom, no historic details of the bible can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. (no witnesses)
5.Just because an instance touches you and becomes your "God" speaking, ie, the beautiful sky or a yearling deer nursing in the meadow, doesnt mean its actaually diety speaking to you through one of its wonderous creations, just means you thought it was nice and chose to show reverance to it by giving it a label.

How much more sinister could a ruling class be? Control society through the promise of eternal reward, and if that doesnt work, tell them if they dont believe, they will go to HELLLL! And along the way "render to Ceasars what is Ceasars" even though I never thought that verse was telling believers that they had to pay taxes, I thought it was this Jesus character being sarcastic. When he saw the face of ceasar on the coin as pointed out by someone trying to get out of paying taxes, jesus was simply saying this is just a thing , and hey look its got a picture of Ceasar on it so it must be his, give it back to him.
Ive read some of the KJB and you know all it ever caused me was pain. The pain of knowing the truth and being forced to act like I didnt. So I burned the one thing my grndmother left me when she passed away, A leatherbound King James Bible full of handwritten notes and highlights she had accumulated over 30 years of study. I failed to accomplish the burning once because someone stopped me. Of course they tried to save it so they coud give it back to me when I came to my senses, and they did. Guess what? As soon as they gave it back to me I did it right, soaked the thing in 10w40 and sparked it up right in my living room fireplace. Stunk up the entire neighborhood. Now no-one will ever be able to read her interperatation of the biggest lie ever perpetrated by man ..ever. They can figure it out for themselves, just like Im sure she did before the end.

reply to post by SaturnFX

God is a being of perfection...God hates sin also coincidently.

Why is it a coincidence. And how is this a contradiction?

God created man with free will...Angels are his servants, but Man is special because of this free will stuff he has.

What book are you reading? If angels did not have free will, then how did they rebel?

Explain to me how the morning star became satan while having no free will

See above statement for answer.

It is impossible, therefore God meant to create Satan for the specific purpose of being who/what he is.

As I stated see above statement for answer.

Now, this means that Gods plan with these free willed things was to give them two paths, one to him, the other to Satan.

Yes we have the free will to follow one.

here is the contradiction. God created a being that has free will, God also understands pain, torture, etc...God created beings to be tortured endlessly without hope of ever getting back into the good graces of God.

See, the angles where in the presence of God. So they knew the word. That is why they cannot be redeemed. Lets say that you had a child that revolted against the way you did things simply because he wanted to be in charge. He became your sworn enemy. He would rather rule hell than serve in heaven and there was no changing his mind. He made that decision all on his own. If he could he would kill you instead of just being the morning star. Now who would allow anyone to do that.

Therefore, God is, by his action, evil. The bible states a good and merciful God, but what good and merciful anything creates torture camps for endlessly torturing people whom didnt follow your rules? I dont care if he/she/it gave all but a single person heavenly bliss...to specifically design a system that allows for such actions is simply evil.

Therefore your understanding of the events are flawed. By the way evil came into existence by what Satan had done. You have to have a word to describe it. Evil seems to fit the meaning. Yeah people would call it torture, the Lord would call it purifying. Here is a little bit of information you might not know. Some of the first churches established believed that everyone was going to heaven. After all, didn't Christ die for everyone? They believed that hell was how God purified the souls so they could enter heaven. Do we not boil water to take out the impurities?

Therefore...God is evil, because he is perfect and he knew this would happen with the creation...to bring something conscious into existance only for a eternity of pain, suffering, and endless death.

Yes. God knows every outcome that will happen, but which outcome happens is up to you.

If Hell exists, then God is evil, if Hell doesn't exist, then there is no biblical God (because the bible refers to it quite alot)

So since jails exist humanity is evil? You have to stop blaming God for your own bad decisions and work toward improving whatever you need to improve. That also includes everyone.

reply to post by Conclusion


If God is All-Powerful than nothing can happen that is outside his power to control. Therefore sin cannot pop into existence and evil cannot suddenly pop into existence. If God is All-Powerful than he has in his power the ability to stop evil and return all things to good with a mere thought....

And yet one third of the angels rebel. And yet the snake gets into the garden. And yet the best plan for Salvation he can come up with is to send his only son to die an undeserved and horrific death. None of that makes sense.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull

Originally posted by Conclusion

First off I would like to state that I do understand why you do not believe. You stopped looking.

I see it another way entirely. The reason I stopped believing is because I STARTED LOOKING. I started really looking at what I was told to believe and at what I was trying desperately, passionately, to believe in my heart. I started from scratch looking for truth and understanding that even if the truth casts doubt on my previous beliefs I couldn't just throw out truth...

And that's the thing, I'd been programmed by religion to throw out truth in favor of whatever was written in the Bible.

I also did a great deal of looking when I was a Christian, before any doubts, I sought God with every bit of my soul begging him to change my life and transform my spirit and for a while the warm fuzzy feeling I got from heartfelt prayer to a God I truly believed was there was enough to keep my faith going. The problem was the moment I stopped praying I went back to being average American teenager, dirty jokes and swear words and sinful thoughts. Needless to say I spent my teen years wracked with guilt wondering why God was silent and waiting for the Rapture, waiting to be left behind by God or taken up... waiting to burn or be redeemed and unsure of which side I would end up on any given day. Do you know what that's like? Viewing every newstory with guilt stricken paranoia afraid that this story might be the big one, the announcement of the rapture and the knowledge that I would be going to Hell?

God remained silent no matter how I called and that helped lead me to doubt the Bible and everything I was taught. And once I felt safe doubting, once I understood that my beliefs were hollow and valueless without questioning them, my mind was opened and I was able to start the search for truth from scratch.

So you are dead wrong, I did my searching and I still am searching and if there is a higher power, a deity (I do not rule it out 100%) than he/she/it knows where to find me and knows that only direct intervention or direct proof, not blind faith based on a flawed book and bizarre belief system or the anecdotal evidence of someone who already believes, will get me to believe.

So what you are saying is that you believed there was a God but did not live like your Creator wanted you to live, and since we all know that God will not look upon sin, he did not intervene in your life soooooo you just stopped believeing? lol. Why didn't you just ask for forgiveness and take Christ at his word that you were saved and move on with your saved self. Well it's not to late.

reply to post by Conclusion


Your response to Titen I think explains a fundamental difference that I touched on earlier.

Titen and I seem to want to believe. We accept that it'd be infinitely easier. But we lack the part of our brain that will let us have blind faith. Or possibly we have an extra part that doesn't let us have blind faith.

That is my theory that is growing inside of me.

[edit on 2/16/2010 by iamsupermanv2]

reply to post by iamsupermanv2

That's the god I'd believe in.

Ok I was blowing you off like most others on this site but no more.

How can you not see that same pain on Gods face everytime one of us
decides to worship a golden calf or one of the created instead of the creator.
When you have been hurt enough how do you react?
Sooner or later I myself will react with vengence. Gods vengence results
in wrath. The mysterious ways part could mean anything fron all the pre ordained natural things that happened during the Exodus to Christ himself.
All very mysterious. I still find God to be very understandable
without claiming to know the mind of God.
Anything you can call up against him, I search for understanding if I don't already have it. Sooner maybe later it comes. Because I don't say screw
it this is b.s.

Sooner or later you realise the reason you are still asking questions is
because you don't want to believe the truth.

[edit on 16-2-2010 by randyvs]

Originally posted by Conclusion


What book are you reading? If angels did not have free will, then how did they rebel?

Psalm 103:20-21:
"Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure."


Seriously...read that passage...consider it...reflect on it.

Did God say...Oi, Angels...REBEL!!!
no?
Did god get pleasure out of the rebellion? doubtful unless he is one twisted snip
...which means that the angels didnt do his commandments as stated...which makes that passage false, which corrupts the bible, which makes the whole book invalid

The passage doesnt say angels "sometimes" does his commandments...and "if it suits them" does his pleasure...its a matter of fact statement of how they are to act, period. They are his robots and slaves to his whims and desires.

You sure you want to bring up the rebellion that clearly invalidates the whole book to begin with? I think its more fun to ignore that little issue.

reply to post by SaturnFX


They do his commanments of there own free wil because they know he
is God, or not. Where does this get difficult for you Saturn?

Maybe this will help.
That passage does not exist.
There was war in heaven !/3 rebelled against God through Satans persuasive beauty. So 2/3 remained. Like I said you should be asking not telling if you don't understand. You really don't If you want I can only give the way I understand.It's when you don't write God off that it will come to you.



[edit on 16-2-2010 by randyvs]

Hi OP.

I will give you some support. Because i believe in God and i believe i know what God is.

First:
The only reason religion seam like a contradiction is because it is misunderstood and misused by humans. We are to blame for the contradiction not religion.

A theory is only as good as you visualize it. I learned that when i studied math. If your theory is way of target. Then your equation will be way of target as well.
And i think many people are way of target when it comes to God. Because firstly. Because they have never given God a time of day. The second is that every one seams to understand science and math perfectly. So they can confirm that what they know is a fact. And that is that God is a illusion created by our mind. But the only illusion that is true is that we think we know everything about everything.

reply to post by psyko45

1.Most "churches" have tax numbers and are therefore about one thing....money.

Then don't go to that church.

2. If a church doesnt have a tax number its most likely a cult or some other type of extremist org.

Naw that is just the government trying to say what it should be. lol You can't give God a tax number. lol. That is just silly. Nice try though.

.All "God" based religions are based on what some guy or gal said that "God" told them. (aka divine revelation)

Yeah and everybody who is a skeptic thinks.....LIAR. By the way religion does not save people, Jesus does.

.Besides basics such as there was indeed a city named Sodom, no historic details of the bible can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. (no witnesses)

lol Yeah besides the basics. Do yourself a favor and google archeological evidence that proves the bible. You will come up with thousands of your so called "basics". lol. That is just untrue.

5.Just because an instance touches you and becomes your "God" speaking, ie, the beautiful sky or a yearling deer nursing in the meadow, doesnt mean its actaually diety speaking to you through one of its wonderous creations, just means you thought it was nice and chose to show reverance to it by giving it a label.

Or it is real and the bible is right. Oh wait that would be to simple.

How much more sinister could a ruling class be? Control society through the promise of eternal reward, and if that doesnt work, tell them if they dont believe, they will go to HELLLL! And along the way "render to Ceasars what is Ceasars" even though I never thought that verse was telling believers that they had to pay taxes, I thought it was this Jesus character being sarcastic. When he saw the face of ceasar on the coin as pointed out by someone trying to get out of paying taxes, jesus was simply saying this is just a thing , and hey look its got a picture of Ceasar on it so it must be his, give it back to him. Ive read some of the KJB and you know all it ever caused me was pain. The pain of knowing the truth and being forced to act like I didnt. So I burned the one thing my grndmother left me when she passed away, A leatherbound King James Bible full of handwritten notes and highlights she had accumulated over 30 years of study. I failed to accomplish the burning once because someone stopped me. Of course they tried to save it so they coud give it back to me when I came to my senses, and they did. Guess what? As soon as they gave it back to me I did it right, soaked the thing in 10w40 and sparked it up right in my living room fireplace. Stunk up the entire neighborhood. Now no-one will ever be able to read her interperatation of the biggest lie ever perpetrated by man ..ever. They can figure it out for themselves, just like Im sure she did before the end.

By your complete disrespect of a grandmother, who obviously loved you, tells me more about you than I care to know. By such an act you have proved that your hate for something, that you didn't even believe in, was more powerful than the love, if you want to call it that, for your own grandmother that wanted to leave you her most treasured possession. Simply pathetic.

[edit on 16-2-2010 by Conclusion]