How to Destroy a 9/11 Truther

Everyone make fun of truthers because there are conspiacies, then there is non-sense. Truthers believe in non-sense. For all those lame excuses that are used as "truther facts" can someone explain to me motive?

Great video, put things into perspective, thanks for posting!

reply to post by pyramid head


One of the key reasons is that it enabled them to dramatically increase defense spending hence speeding up the empire building and oil acquisition.

Look back to the documents of the Project for the New American Century (Bush admin Thinktank from the late 90's) where they said a 'New Pearl Harbor' was required in order to increase the spending to the desired level.

reply to post by GhostR1der

Hypothetical scenario:

5 outdated Russian mig 27s are flying towards the US coast. They turn their transponders off and approach at 10ft ASL, pulling mach 1.
They launch a tactical nuclear cruise missile...

Hold up there, Bucko!!!

Before you start getting all 'hypothetical' on us, you should first know and understand just what and what NOT a MiG 27 can do!!

Read and learn..(and just this for a start)
en.wikipedia.org...

I didn't even address the range issues, based on fuel burn requirements to exceed Mach, etc, etc, etc.

But, the mere fact that the "outdated" MiGs were never equipped with the armaments you 'hypothesized' should be sufficient.

You can make stuff up, but in the light of facts and common sense?

Well.......


[edit on 16 February 2010 by weedwhacker]

How to be a 9/11 conspiracy theorist;

Read the Facebook group "9/11 IS A LIE!!!! IT WAS PLANNED BY THE ADMINISTRATION!!!!" You are now an expert and can prove it was all fixed.

reply to post by Galileo Galilei

I think your post demonstrates the poverty of credible support that there is for heliocentric conspiracy theories.

You cite Copernicans with about 1000 supporters. When you look at the membership and discount the number of students and scribes etc and "scientists," like their leader Copernicus himself, who have no experience of the mysteries of God's universe, how much relevant expertise is left? Copernicus' level of expertise is such that he thinks concentric rings are a fair representation of the solar system.

Compare that to the Catholic Church, who do not take issue with Aristotle's findings, and they have a membership of 76,495,000.

You trot out in your clip Christopher Clavius. He is put forward as a scientist who knows that not everything revolves around the Earth. Turns out he died in 1612. How old is he for Urban's sake. What does he know of official doctrine here in 1616?

You shoot yourself in the foot by drawing attention to the miniscule professional support for heliocentric CT's.

Love,
Cardinal Roberto Bellarmino

This is great Squirrel, now we have dead Cardinals looking in, maybe it is a sign for us all to be loving and forgiving...for they know not what they do!

reply to post by Thought Provoker


You nailed it.

I don't understand why we have tolerated Galileo's nonsense for as long as we have. Traditionally we simply execute these heretics on sight. The Church really has become lax lately.


But as you point out, Galileo and his fellow "Copernican" CT'ers are of no real consequence anyway. No authority on this issue takes them seriously.


How many members of our Catholic Church are well-versed in astronomy? It must be tens of thousands at least. As you yourself point out, there are millions of Catholics all over the world. And how many of them support these wild heliocentric CTs? You say 1000 of them but I'm afraid you are even being too generous with such a figure. I personally don't know of a single person who believes such nonsense, let alone any authority on astronomy. Just walk into any church and mention such blasphemy and you would be lucky to be laughed out.


I'm afraid these poor "heliocentrists," as few as there are, will never see the light until they find themselves burning in hell, when it's all too late. :shk:

What else can you say... no one takes this nonsense seriously. Not a single expert today. And that's proof enough for me.

Thanks man.

reply to post by bsbray11


Are truthers comparing 9/11 to the heliocentric theory now?

I think there is a difference in resistance between conspiracy theories now and church killing theories way back when...

Are truthers trying to give some "here's the truth being resisted the the powers of the day" example?

The only problem in your story is that the heliocentric theory relies on education and science rather than pulling things out of nowhere and claiming you know some almighty truth that you're trying to convey to the sheepish masses. Oh and just outright lying, the church and truthers have that in common also.

Why truthers are even using this comparison boggles the mind.

Originally posted by Alfie1

I think your post demonstrates the poverty of credible support that there is for 9/11 conspiracy theories.

You cite 911AEt with about 1000 members. When you look at the membership and discount the number of electrical engineers and landscape engineers etc and architects , like their leader Gage himself, who have no experience of high rise buildings, how much relevant expertise is left ? Richard Gage's level of expertise is such that he thinks juggling cardboard boxes is a fair representation of the WTC towers collapsing.

Compare that to the American Society of Civil Engineers, who do not take issue with NIST's findings, and they have a membership of 76,495.

You trot out in your clip Ted Gunderson. He is put forward as an FBI man who knows 9/11 was an inside job. Turns out he retired in 1979. How old is he for Pete's sake. What does he know of what went down in 2001 ?

You shoot yourself in the foot by drawing attention to the miniscule professional support for 9/11 CT's.

well here is one example.

Name: Andrew Wolff
Title: Architect, AIA,LEED
License #: 30395 CA
Degree: M Arch, Yale University
City: Los Angeles
State: CA
Country: USA
Category: Architects (Degreed & Licensed - Active & Retired)
Discipline: Architecture
Status: Degreed and Licensed

Bio:

"Andrew Wolff has worked on several large-scale high-rise projects both in China, and in the United States, and has designed several midsized schools, libraries and performing arts centers in the Los Angeles California area."

Personal 9/11 Statement:

"The free-fall collapse of the fire protected steel-frame structure of World Trade Center #7 could not have been caused by the limited structural damage and office fires which were observed prior to collapse. The actual scientific/forensic evidence (i.e. Thermate particles in the dust and molten steel during debris extraction), calls into question the official 911 commission report (NIST) and points to a professionally controlled demolition by incendiary devices."

reply to post by weedwhacker


Okay. Hypothetical - it wouldn't be impossible to rig cruise missiles and the avionics to boot in a mig27. They can exceed mach 1 at sea level but for how long? Fly them there on ferry tanks drop em and then scoot back home. Or replace migs with flying cows and davey crockett nukes to keep it entirely theoretical then. You are picking straws to distract from the actual issue at hand.

If a plane does not cross one of these lines of amazingly available diagrams of US radar live/dead spots then it's effectively invisible if it comes from the outside in west or east coast. If that's the case then New Zealand could probably invade, we don't even have jet fighters anymore. China could sneak hundreds of planes in via the sides of the US coast and they wouldn't even know, because they'd have their transponder off....

They can detect space junk and missile launches in another country yet can't see a plane with it's transponder off? USA must be entirely open to attack then, at any time, plus the $553bn official 'non black' defense budget must be a waste of money if they can't direct hordes of fighters towards a possible target.

You still have not answered in the latest pentagon thread how the 752 managed to strike the lightpoles at high speed, leave a small hole in the front of the pentagon - all without turfing up the lawn with the engines. As a pilot you know the figures exceed what any plane and pilot is capable of withstanding G force wise, yet you pick at straw and avoid the impossibility of the scenario.

reply to post by defcon5



Hi defcon, as per above. Summed up; if an attacker doesn't cross one of these magical norad lines then USA is doomed and doesn't know what's hit it? Are you serious?

[edit on 16/2/10 by GhostR1der]

Originally posted by nycfrog27
reply to post by SquirrelNutz

 

i dont care what u think of me. I don't care what your opinion is. If you people hate America so much, then LEAVE. Period. Stop defiling this good country.

" The Spirit of Resistance
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

"Governments, wherein the will of every one has a just influence... has its evils,... the principal of which is the turbulence to which it is subject. But weigh this against the oppressions of monarchy, and it becomes nothing. Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem. [I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.] Even this evil is productive of good. It prevents the degeneracy of government, and nourishes a general attention to the public affairs." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:64




I also like a little Rebellion now and then , it's good to remind those elected officials in Washington that we are still considered a " Free Society " here in America weither they believe in Our Constitution or not . To call anyone Unpatriotic for that sentiment is the Real Treason..........

GOD BLESS AMERICA ! .............


[edit on 16-2-2010 by Zanti Misfit]

[edit on 16-2-2010 by Zanti Misfit]

Originally posted by Whyhi
The only problem in your story is that the heliocentric theory relies on education and science rather than pulling things out of nowhere and claiming you know some almighty truth that you're trying to convey to the sheepish masses.

Bah, what do you know? All the experts are in agreement. Heliocentrism is an absurd idea. Geocentrism is based on science. All the authorities are in agreement. Are you trying to tell me that you are smarter than tens of thousands of expert astronomers? Yeah, right. If what you are suggesting is really so obvious, that people only need to be "educated," then why aren't people who are hearing this ridiculous theory converting to it? Why did Copernicus die STILL thought of as a fool? Did he not try "educating" people his entire life? Yet no one listened. Why? Because everyone knows its crap.

Why truthers are even using this comparison boggles the mind.

I don't doubt it.

All kinds of things boggle your mind, don't they?

If only we had experts to tell us what is real and what isn't, it would make life so much simpler.

Oh wait -- we do!

And they're all in agreement. No room for argument here. No one takes your theories seriously.

Originally posted by GhostR1der
reply to post by weedwhacker

 

Okay. Hypothetical - it wouldn't be impossible to rig cruise missiles and the avionics to boot in a mig27. They can exceed mach 1 at sea level but for how long? Fly them there on ferry tanks drop em and then scoot back home. Or replace migs with flying cows and davey crockett nukes to keep it entirely theoretical then. You are picking straws to distract from the actual issue at hand.

If a plane does not cross one of these lines of amazingly available diagrams of US radar live/dead spots then it's effectively invisible if it comes from the outside in west or east coast. If that's the case then New Zealand could probably invade, we don't even have jet fighters anymore. China could sneak hundreds of planes in via the sides of the US coast and they wouldn't even know, because they'd have their transponder off....

They can detect space junk and missile launches in another country yet can't see a plane with it's transponder off? USA must be entirely open to attack then, at any time, plus the $553bn official 'non black' defense budget must be a waste of money if they can't direct hordes of fighters towards a possible target.

You still have not answered in the latest pentagon thread how the 752 managed to strike the lightpoles at high speed, leave a small hole in the front of the pentagon - all without turfing up the lawn with the engines. As a pilot you know the figures exceed what any plane and pilot is capable of withstanding G force wise, yet you pick at straw and avoid the impossibility of the scenario.

reply to post by defcon5

 

Hi defcon, as per above. Summed up; if an attacker doesn't cross one of these magical norad lines then USA is doomed and doesn't know what's hit it? Are you serious?

[edit on 16/2/10 by GhostR1der]

Hi Ghost,
Old Weed knows the score when it comes to cigar holders,(planes) what he didn't mention is that the US has 14 MIG 29's at home, and most likely the Germans have some lying around in the US, they don't need to be modified at all. In any case, I don't think it a plausible scenario, but who knows? But you're right that Weed is a bit lack in talking about the Pentagon plane, and also conflicting eyewitness reports,(including policemen) as to the direction that the plane was coming from.



[edit on 16-2-2010 by smurfy]

reply to post by mslag67


Your post was interesting to me. I still fall basically in the OS camp, but I agree that a lot of things do not make sense to me, most especially WTC #7. I would like to see more of these type of quotes in the 911 threads.

In any event, I appreciate all the effort that both sides put into this debate. I have no agenda, just seeking knowledge.

Wow. It's really getting hard to tell who's on which side in this thread. I'll take that as a good sign.

Originally posted by piddles

I kind of thought the general ATS consensus was that 9/11 was planned in some way, regardless of who or how.

that is just a fact.

thats what makes it a conspiracy

Originally posted by secretbear
How to be a 9/11 conspiracy theorist;

Read the Facebook group "9/11 IS A LIE!!!! IT WAS PLANNED BY THE ADMINISTRATION!!!!" You are now an expert and can prove it was all fixed.

How to be a debunker: Watch the video! You fit the mold, perfectly.

Try not to get any sand in your nose, Bucko.




[edit on 2/16/2010 by SquirrelNutz]

Originally posted by GhostR1der
If a plane does not cross one of these lines of amazingly available diagrams of US radar live/dead spots then it's effectively invisible if it comes from the outside in west or east coast. If that's the case then New Zealand could probably invade, we don't even have jet fighters anymore. China could sneak hundreds of planes in via the sides of the US coast and they wouldn't even know, because they'd have their transponder off....

You have to consider the Pre-911 mission of NORAD, it was not to police Domestic airspace, that was the FAA’s territory. This is the same way the US military is not used to police the domestic population, its not their area of focus, and is in fact not allowed under the Posse Comitatus Act:

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of Reconstruction, with the intention (in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807) of substantially limiting the powers of the federal government to use the military for law enforcement. The Act prohibits most members of the federal uniformed services (today the Army, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service) from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) within the United States.
The statute generally prohibits federal military personnel and units of the National Guard under federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The Coast Guard is exempt from the Act during peacetime.

Now with that in mind, what was NORAD looking for?
They were tasked with looking for nuclear strikes coming in from either Russia or China (as these were the only two countries that could mount such an attack). Those attacks would only come from three directions, as there were no aircraft with the range to attack from the south, and with the exception of Cuba (which is watched by both Gitmo, and bases in southern florida) there were no Russian/Chinese allies south of the boarder to land or refuel planes at. It would be stupid, slow and impossible due to the range of bombers for either country to attempt a southern attack.

So how would such an attack come?
The first strike would be via missiles, which normal radar cannot detect anyway (there is a spacetrack radar, but I am not sure to what extent it was used at the time, as it would detect the missiles much later into their launch then satellites giving less notice). ICBMS go into orbit, well over the radar shield, where the warheads break open and multiple independently targetable reentry vehicles (MIRVs) would rain down on individual targets. Sub launched missiles would be picked up on radar, but they come in too fast for anyone to do anything about them anyway. Missile launches are mainly detected by satellite:

Warning of ballistic missile launches worldwide comes from Defense Support Program satellites that can detect the heat of rocket engines from 22,300 miles above Earth. Voice and data communications are relayed through systems with names like the Fleet Satellite Communications System, Defense Satellite Communications System, Ultra-High Frequency Follow-On and Milstar. Weather data is collected by the Defense Meteorological Satellite Program as well as civil weather satellites. The Global Positioning System (GPS) provides navigation and positioning data, while the American LANDSAT and French SPOT satellites represent commercial sources of multi-spectral imagery.

The second strike would come via bombers in waves, flying a low altitude polar route (the shortest fastest route between the two countries), and hoping to evade the radar shield using various electronic countermeasures and flying under it.

Think about it… Where are the US’s bomber bases? They are mostly in the northern states because that is the closest they can get to the artic circle. In a nuclear exchange its all about speed, who can deliver the strike the fastest has the best chance of winning by preventing the other sides launch.

The mainstay US bomber has been the B-52 for a long time, and it was vital that they be able to fly at high speed, and extremely low altitude to go under the Russian radar defenses:

Flight Testing Jet Bombers. A Boeing Wichita Story
As with the B-47 it was decided that it was going to be difficult if not impossible to penetrate Russia with the B-52 at high altitude. A low-level test program came into being for the B-52. The idea was to fly the B-52 at low level a lot, 300 ft. above the ground, to see how it did and fix anything that needed fixing.

All B-52s are equipped with an electro-optical viewing system that uses platinum silicide forward-looking infrared and high resolution low-light-level television sensors to augment targeting, battle assessment, and flight safety, thus further improving its combat ability and low-level flight capability.

Pilots wear night vision goggles (NVGs) to enhance their vision during night operations. Night vision goggles provide greater safety during night operations by increasing the pilot's ability to visually clear terrain, avoid enemy radar and see other aircraft in a covert/lights-out environment.

In order to improve the ability to operate safely at low level during both day and night, the AN/ASQ-151 Electro-Optical Viewing System (EVS), consisting of a Low Light Level Television (LLLTV) and a Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system mounted in blisters under the noses of B-52Gs and Hs between 1972 and 1976.

Originally posted by GhostR1der
They can detect space junk and missile launches in another country yet can't see a plane with it's transponder off?

As stated, missile launches are mainly detected via satellite using the heat of the rocket engines to detect them. Space junk is tracked by more then one source, and entered into a database where its orbit can be constantly calculated. This is done in part by radar, but mainly by visual observation:

Radar and optical detectors such as lasers are the main tools used for tracking space debris. However, determining orbits to allow reliable re-acquisition is problematic. Tracking objects smaller than 10 cm (4 in) is difficult due to their small cross-section and reduced orbital stability, though debris as small as 1 cm (0.4 in) can be tracked. NASA Orbital Debris Observatory tracked space debris using a 3 m (10 ft) liquid mirror transit telescope.
The U.S. Strategic Command maintains a catalogue containing about 19,000 objects in the version compiled in 2009, in part to prevent misinterpretation as hostile missiles. Observation data gathered by a number of ground-based radar facilities and telescopes as well as by a space-based telescope is used to maintain this catalogue.

Originally posted by GhostR1der
You still have not answered in the latest pentagon thread how the 752 managed to strike the lightpoles at high speed, leave a small hole in the front of the pentagon - all without turfing up the lawn with the engines. As a pilot you know the figures exceed what any plane and pilot is capable of withstanding G force wise, yet you pick at straw and avoid the impossibility of the scenario.

The fuselage diameter is 13 feet, its two feet larger then a DC-9, it will make a small hole. A 757 is a narrow-body aircraft after all.

If you look up “Gear up landing”photos you will notice that other then prop planes (where the prop rips up the lawn) most belly landings do not rip up the grass. The reason is that the aircraft is designed to be smooth to reduce parasite drag, which means that if you put the body on a slick surface (like wet morning grass) it will slide quite nicely without making a big mess. Its weight is spread across a large surface area making its weight per square foot low.

Originally posted by GhostR1der
Hi defcon, as per above. Summed up; if an attacker doesn't cross one of these magical norad lines then USA is doomed and doesn't know what's hit it? Are you serious?

Hopefully I answered that above, to the best of my ability…
However, you should also know that in the case of the type of war that NORAD was built to fight, we were all doomed anyway. They knew that, and despite how neat Cheyenne Mountain looks it was known that its lifespan in such a war was pretty low. That is why they built the E-6’s. About the best they were going to do was launch the initial retaliation, then they would be taken apart by Slow Walk Strikes meant to dig the mountain apart.

Originally posted by Moonsouljah
That was pretty funny. they forgot to mention to ask these questions:

"why would America bomb her own buildings?"

Money.

"If it was an inside why has nobody gone public?"

Money.


Any other questions? The long-term answer is pretty simple.


Cheers,
Strype


[edit on 17-2-2010 by Strype]