US Immigration Policy Wrong?

Originally posted by Night Star
Ask anyone who has lost a family member due to an action by an illegal immigrant how they feel. Ask the elderly or anyone else who cannot get help with their medical bills because they make a few lousy dollars over the poverty line how they feel. Ask the millions of un-employed people about to lose their unemployment benefits, or perhaps the people in tent cities in the middle of winter who are suffering and hungry.

You seem to be angry because you feel that we should take care of our own first then take care of others. I understand this feeling. I too had lost my job, felt similar feelings. Until I started to understand things in a different light.

I will explain my reasoning. I feel that even if we kicked all the illegals out of the country, we would still have tent cities, high unemployment rate.

Why is that we can fund over sea bases for various "National Security" reasons, yet we can not help out own people? I too was angry when we seem to have so much money to fight wars, run bases all over the world, bail out all the banks, the car companies, wall street, all against the majority of the will of the people. Yet on top of that we give away money to undocumented people.

It was the cherry on top when I saw all these things pile upon one another.

Something doesn't add up, something definitely isn't right. I agree with you, we should watch out for our own people before we help others. In this idea I agree.

But when I consider the vast resources that go into maintaining our empire, all the wars fought for the corporations, I see a much more valuable and more human way to allocate our resources.

You see, I understand a lot of the issues we are facing. But when you take into account a variety of issues and gain an understanding of a trend or policy. Even if it is not our stated claims or what the news man is telling you to believe.

The amazing thing is if we stopped working for big business, had politicians and a system that listened to it's people, it would be a very different world. We could afford all the social programs, take care of own, fix our economic problems, create jobs, lower taxes, with money left over.

Somewhere around 50 percent goes towards "National Defense". This does not count the rest of the "Black Budget". What could you do with that chunk of change? Is half the budget for "defense" necessary especially when our own people and our neighbors are starving.

I have an idea, an opinion that has formed after considering the world around me, perhaps they do not care about you. They are after their own interests.

Once you consider this idea, you may feel a strange compassion for others because if we will not help one another, who will help us?


"In the morning, eat well, in the afternoon, share with a friend, in the evening give a meal to your enemy."

It is because we have too many people suffering here who are legal citizens that have worked their butts off their entire lives and what help are they getting?

A lot of people are suffering right now, it is not just Americans. When you consider other parts, yes we are suffering but when you consider what others are going through, you may just feel rather fortunate.

I've been to some villages where people live in cardboard boxes or hardly what you could call a shack yet they are so loving and would offer the shirt of their back.

In the great Depression of the 30's most would not have survived if it was not for the kindness of those around them. People looked out for their community. If someone was hungry, they were fed, if they had no place to go, someone made room. In our society, we are taught to look out for your self, all the while forgetting about those around you.

While this didn't happen everywhere or in every situation, there is a definite lesson to learn from history.

So when you ask, what about me? Perhaps you can consider you live in a world the way it is because for too long we have done nothing.

It costs these supposedly 'poor' people a lot of money for passage, false documents etc. With people coming through illegally, we are also allowing the pedophiles, gang members, rapists and murders to come in. Crimes have increased and even in quiet 'safe' neighborhoods. No one should have to be afraid to leave their own front doors. As others have said, we have had enough.

Fear often times comes from the fear of the unknown. The unknown is prone to speculation and walking in the dark. To say and stereotype a group of people is very short sighted, especially when you consider that every person is different.

Try to see past the skin, see past what you've seen, and try to look at a person as a person, as an individual. I feel that some people here in some ways are still pretty racist and bias because some people just simply do not know. They do not know because they have not looked. They have not looked because you assume you have it all figured out. This could be an assumption but it has been my observation.

The desire to post this on ATS was an attempt to make the public aware of a stereotype that exists that Mexicans come here illegally just to suck our system dry all the while take away our jobs.



[edit on 16-2-2010 by oconnection]

reply to post by jam321


You're right, I do feel the Mexican issue is different. Only the Mexican immigrants are putting the Mexican flags on top of the American flag on schools like they are doing in California and parts of Texas and Arizona. Only the Mexican's bring with them significant levels of organized crime via the drug cartels. The Mexican issue is different.

I do believe that all illegal's should be deported, but I do believe the Mexican issue is by far the most urgent. Other groups attempt to assimilate into society and tend to be in pockets within communities. Koreans are the third most educated people in the US, behind the Greeks and Jews. They are not going to Korean language schools. They are going to English speaking schools. They open up small businesses, they don't have,typically more than two kids.

There are cultural issues with respect to immigration that simply can not be ignored. All immigrants are not equal and all cultures are not equally compatible with ours.

reply to post by oconnection


hmmmmmmm, I highly doubt that it'd change my view as I am starving and in poverty and living in what I'd consider a shack, and have no work, and even if I found work to do, I'd have to compete with the illegals whom will take far less than minimum wage...so I'd still be in poverty and struggling...as the only jobs available seem to be under the table, anything above the table I have already applied for...denied, no call backs etc etc etc, I am considering emmigrating to mexico though. I wonder if they'll accept me as an immigrator?

reply to post by jam321

What about all the other Americans WHO HAVEN"T worked their butts off and are milking the system?

Guess it is OK to support them since they are Americans.

The same people pushing immigration "reform" are the ones fostering a dependent citizenry. They believe that by "giving away" benefits they will create a constituency that ensures their re-election. The dependent, legal or illegal, are their "powerbase."

jw

" In our society, we are taught to look out for your self, all the while forgetting about those around you."


Not a bad policy to have, if I thought this way much more when I was younger, I'm sure I would've gotten much further in life and been at the top of the corporate ladder by now. I certainly have the intelligence, my bleeding heart held me back, I've since grown a tougher skin!!!!

A few rotten apples spoil that batch. The vast majority of "Illegals" are good people, want a better opportunity and seek it in the usA. But if we don't take care of our own then what do you suggest? If you've helped put your neighbor out of work and unable to support his family, what will he do. How long should he wait for his ship to come in? This is a real world, we have to take care of our own first and also see to it that future generations have opportunity here first. The NWO deliberately destroyed manufacturing in the usA to create the situation of today. It's not stupid politicians, it's not an accident, it's a plan. Infusing the country with people who don't understand or care about the constitution only helps destroy the country. But first and foremost, we have to take care of our own. If we don't, they can, will and I think should turn on us. There's no reason and no excuse and no rational by which the poor should sit around watching their children starve or turned into drug addicts or prostitutes. Why should they put up with it? There's no good reason whatsoever.

We all want others to have a good life. The poor, unfortunately are much easier to victimize and control than the middle class. If you want a strong safe society then you have to strengthen your neighbor and not import people to take their jobs because they are nice people. Also, much of the time, for a generation or two at the least, you end up with crime from neglected children with nothing else to do. A strong healthy society can and should be in every country and every city. There's no reason there isn't.

We're all in this together and we should try to make life as reasonably comfortable for everyone as possible. But it has to grow from within.

Originally posted by oconnection

Originally posted by jdub297

So, of the 2 billion people living in standards below those of the US "poverty" level, we should just bring them over, make them feel "at home," and pick up their tab. How many do you want?

I never said we should pick their tab, I simply see an unmoral situation when I see one. Instead I believe we should be more compassionate to our neighbors, and allow an easier avenue for those who wish to work and/or become a citizen.

It doesn't get any easier for anyone who wants either. There is nothing immoral about having borders.

The way I see it is their is an obvious need for a hard working Mexican or other immigrants who will do the work most won't. If their wasn't a need, then they wouldn't find work under the table.

You are advocating exploitation of immigrants. There is no "need" for work "under the table" except for those willing to exploit or be exploited.

Another concern is the exploitation that occurs to immigrants.

This is completely hypocritical, given your previous statement.

They have no rights, their is no workers compensation, no disability, and no minimum wage.

Yes, they do have rights by virtue of their residency. They also have obligations. Where were you in elementary school when they discussed rights v. obligations?

Many jobs have no W/C protections, regardless of the status of the employee. W/C obligations depend upon the nature of the EMPLOYER! Last I looked, there is a minimum wage.

One way to fight illegal immigration is crack down on businesses that exploit the immigrant.

True! But that doesn't fit with your previous statements, does it?

At the same time I believe we should uphold our laws, I feel it's morally right to integrate those who are here.

Our laws prohibit illegal immigration and the employment of illegal immigrants. Many of those here do not wish to integrate. What you want is neither consistent nor legal.

Not only would it be moral, it would help take in taxes.

Alien workers pay sales taxes, property taxes and social security/medicaid taxes.

Really, all those immigrants are just hording their money. Especially when they come from extreme poverty, they are really stuffing their hundreds under the mattress. Seems you know a lot of illegals and have a great understanding of what they go through. Wow you seem to have all the answers.

Actually, they do. Many do not trust banks and rely on cash. I've seen bags, pillows and mattresses stuffed with cash. I live and work among them every day. I had dinner with a family this past weekend. Everything they bought was paid for in cash. Even the dope.

To say all immigrants don't want to assimilate is easily proved as a stereotype and can safely say most wish to be a citizen.

I said no such thing. Prove otherwise. You can not.

You are projecting your own biased and flawed thinking.

Yea 3 days through the desert is an easy trip. Try it your self then talk. Most illegals walk probably because they do not own cars. Did you ever consider that idea?

You really do not know, do you? I've walked the International Bridge in LaredoNuevo Laredo, Brownsville/Matamoros, Eagle Pass/Piedra Negras, Del Rio/ Ciudad Acuna, McAllen/Reynosa, El Paso/Juarez, and several others. It is quicker, cheaper and safer than driving across. Many Mexicans do likewise. You've never done it so you make up "facts" to fit your fantasy.

It's interesting how I supposedly live in a fantasy world yet I can point to obvious holes in your argument.

I'm not making any arguments; I'm stating facts. You are in a fantasy world.

How pathetic.

jw7]

[edit on 17-2-2010 by jdub297]

reply to post by jdub297

The same people pushing immigration "reform" are the ones fostering a dependent citizenry. They believe that by "giving away" benefits they will create a constituency that ensures their re-election. The dependent, legal or illegal, are their "powerbase."

A lot of truth to the above. My whole point about this is that people are quick to blame the illegals for all our problems while ignoring all the other factors that are hurting our country.

Even if there weren't illegals, our country would still be in a world of hurt.

Furthermore, the same people who you saying are fostering a dependent society are also some of the first ones to point the finger and blame our problems solely on illegals.

reply to post by dolphinfan

Only the Mexican immigrants are putting the Mexican flags on top of the American flag on schools like they are doing in California and parts of Texas and Arizona.

Can you distinguish between a Mexican immigrant and an illegal Mexican? I know many legal and Mexicans who know English but just prefer to talk Spanish when in public. I also know many Mexicans who have invested quite a bit of time, money, and energy to learn English.

Of course, if you go into a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood, you can no doubt expect Spanish to be the dominant language.

Other groups attempt to assimilate into society and tend to be in pockets within communities. Koreans are the third most educated people in the US, behind the Greeks and Jews. They are not going to Korean language schools.

Is there really a problem with being bilingual? Our own government supports it. Is it the fear that English will no longer be the main language of the US?

Don't fear. It isn't going to happen. Even Mexico is starting to teach English in their schools.

Bilingualism persists to a greater extent among third-generation Hispanic groups, lending some truth to the claims from nativist and multiculturalist perspectives that an older pattern of language assimilation — mother-tongue extinction, in fact — has broken down.

But English hardly seems endangered. Not only is competence in English close to universal among the US-born children and grandchildren of today's immigrants, but even among those groups where bilingualism persists, the predominant pattern by the third generation is English monolingualism.

www.migrationinformation.org...

They are going to English speaking schools. They open up small businesses, they don't have,typically more than two kids.

Hispanics open up small businesses as well. Know many places I could take you where most of the customers are non-Hispanics.

As far as kids, that is a family decision. Are you saying the US should control the number of kids a person can have?

Here's a thought, instead of running away, why not fight to take their country back from corruption and crime - which leads me to think upon the group that wants to take the American Southwest back for Mexico. Why not take Mexico back?

Immigration is not the answer. People reclaiming their homes, their neighborhoods, their cities and ultimately the State, is the answer. Of course, that involves violence and we can't have that, can we?

Revolutionary war. Right or wrong, we did it and look what we created. Perfect or imperfect, the United States is a good idea. Why not for Mexico? Why can't they rise up and take their country back and make it their idea of a perfect place?

You have to want it. You have to earn it. Only then will you appreciate and defend it. This goes with pretty much everything in life. It is the only answer I see to this problem.

reply to post by rwiggins

Revolutionary war. Right or wrong, we did it and look what we created. Perfect or imperfect, the United States is a good idea. Why not for Mexico? Why can't they rise up and take their country back and make it their idea of a perfect place?

Very good question. But would that be to the US interest?

Take NAFTA, do you think the US gave Mexico the best deal? How about the war on drugs? Why is it that Mexico can't legalize?

Illegal immigration can be fixed by revising the visa system. about40-50% of illegals come in this way.

Enforce the laws already on the book, especially fining employers heavily.

Make a tamper proof social security card. Don't you find it strange that with all the modern technology, we are still using the same old flimsy SS cards?

Reduce the time it takes to get legal status in the US. It really it a long and time consuming effort.

No need to increase border patrol or seal the border. If they can't get jobs, they aren't going to come. Would you pay a coyote 2,500 dollars per member knowing your chances of getting a job is nil to none?

But don't you see? That is the problem. The US cannot "fix" Mexico. Mexico must be fixed by itself. Use addiction for example. Is it not true that for a person that is addicted to something must first admit to the problem and then find it within themselves to want to change?

The people of Mexico must decide that enough is enough. The corruption and crime are not to be tolerated any more. They must collectively decide that a) there is a problem and b) they want to change it.

We can throw money at Mexico, accept all the immigrants, enact all sorts of legislation - it will not *solve* the problem. In fact, the more we try to solve, the more problems we create. We can't please everyone.

No, the Mexican people must do this. Sure, we can assist them. But, until they decide to change things, nothing we do will matter.

reply to post by jam321

If we are wiling to accept an open border, why not "annex" Mexico?

They are our biggest importer and the biggest "exporter" of manpower. Why not just eliminate the "international" border, and just make it a "state" border? Commerce and citizens can cross freely, subject to US codes and regulations.

Mexico can become the next Puerto Rico!

No diplomat will propose this, but it is the only alternative to amnesty, aside from expulsion.

jw


[edit on 17-2-2010 by jdub297]

reply to post by jdub297


IMO, Mexico will be part of the US. I really believe that sooner or later NAU will become a reality. Just look at all the other countries that have united or plan to unite. It is a common theme and it will be repeated here as well. I know many are against it, but in the end they will get use to it just like the Europeans have done with the EU.

reply to post by jam321


Frankly I don't care if they are legal or illegal if they are placing the Mexican flag over the American flag on a public building, a building where they are getting services from the US. The fact that there are legal Mexicans attending the school further underscores that there is less of a desire to assimilate.

Being bilingual is fantastic. I wish I was bilingual. The fact of the matter is not being totally fluent in English is a perscription to being a low end earner during your life time. It is much different than it was even in the 70s. I had many German friends. They only spoke German at home. Their parents were draconian with respect to school work. Their parents also were totally fluent in Englsh. My point being that there are ways to celebrate the culture and make it an important part of your life while taking steps to assist your children to assimilate into maintstream America and have a shot at a better lifestyle. Living in the US as if you were living in Mexico is obviously not a way to ensure that your children will be successful.

I don't care how many children folks have, nor do I suggest that the government have any role in that decision. I do think there are some steps the government should take with respect to government assistance that are related to the number of children in a family, but that is another topic. My point is that the greater burden placed on the parents the more difficult it is for them to provide the level of attention to each child and provide the motivation for them to be successful.

This problem is entirely due to the fact that there are too many Mexicans here. The Mexican population has reached critical mass and have they ability to live in what are essentially segregated communities within the US.

The Chinese American is a good example of how it works successfully. In major cities like NY and San Francisco there are concentrated pockets of Chinese Americans. Many of the older folks do not speak English. Take a look at who is getting scholarships to major universities in the US and you will find a disproportional number of Chinese, Korean and Indian Americans. Why is that?

When a Korean or Chinese American kid graduates from high school or college the family has a party. The party is for the mother not the kid. It is the mother's job to ensure that the child is successful and they drive those kids to achieve. They become doctors, engineers, computer scientists, etc. You simply do not have that culture in the Mexican community and that is a significant problem with the state of US immigration.