Yahweh is a storm god

reply to post by kawacat


Well, you know someone told me one time that God spoke through thunder. Now, I am not one to rule much of anything out. Everytime a thunderstorm rolls through, my mind always goes back to what that person told me.

On a serious note, here is something that I found interesting:

Native Americans lived with tornadoes and severe storms on the Great Plains for thousands of years before stormchasers came along. Because they practice nature-centered spirituality they did and do see the spiritual aspects of storms, including tornadoes. The writings of Oglala Lakota holy man Black Elk, who was a boy at the battle of Greasy Grass (Little Big Horn) and a distant relative of Crazy Horse, tell of a religious vision he received in which he rode upon such a storm.

Vine Deloria says in his introduction to the book "Black Elk Speaks," in which John Neihardt transcribed Black Elk's recounting of his vision, that his works comprise a sort of canon for North American Indian theological tradition. His vision therefore comprises a spiritual way of knowing -- in this case about severe storms of the type that would generate a tornado.

In his vision, Black Elk rides upon a bay horse, high above the earth among a herd of twelve great black horses (and other spirit warriors and horses). Black is a symbol of the west -- the direction from which thunderstorms sweep down across the prairie. In his vision, he finds a blue man who holds the land in a terrible drought, and slays him. This releases life-giving rain from the storm, restoring the land, plants, and animals.

Spiritual messages in weather

reply to post by TheLaughingGod

I'm not sure Jesus even existed, not 100% sure that is, though I'm leaning heavily towards it..

If he existed to those that did not even believe in him, then I think you have your answer.

Was Jesus a Myth? “Is the life story of the founder of Christianity the product of human sorrow, imagination, and hope—a myth comparable to the legends of Krishna, Osiris, Attis, Adonis, Dionysus, and Mithras?” asks historian Will Durant. He answers that in the first century, to deny that Christ had ever existed “seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or Jewish opponents of nascent Christianity.”—The Story of Civilization,: Part III, “Caesar and Christ.” The Roman historian Suetonius (c. 69-140 C.E.), in his history The Twelve Caesars, stated regarding the emperor Claudius: “Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he expelled them from the city.” This occurred about the year 52 C.E. (Compare Acts 18:1, 2.) Note that Suetonius expresses no doubt about the existence of Christ. On this factual basis and in spite of life-endangering persecution, early Christians were very active proclaiming their faith. It is hardly likely that they would have risked their lives on the basis of a myth. Jesus’ death and resurrection had taken place in their lifetime, and some of them had been eyewitnesses to those events. Historian Durant draws the conclusion: “That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.”

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


While I personally believe Christ existed, as is exhibited in my initial post, even if he didn't, it is the message relayed that is important.

[edit on 10-2-2010 by SpeakerofTruth]

I could easily imagine a war between Baal and Yahweh. They were both storm gods, and they were both givers of blessings of fruitfulness.
If you lived in the land of Canaan, your prosperity was dependent on the rains. There was the earlier rain, and the latter rain. Baal would ride on a chariot on top of the storm clouds rolling in from the north, off the mediterranean.
Yahweh would also come rolling in on his chariot on top of storm clouds, but they came from the south. It could be that a planet wide climate shift changed the weather patterns and how the clouds formed. If I am in a kayak, paddling around off the coast, I have to keep an eye out for thunder storms. Where I live, the moist air blows inland from the gulf, and then it will build big thunder clouds. They gain strength and expand and grow, against the wind, until you see lightening striking closer, and closer, until you know you have to get off the water.
When I lived in California, I often would sit on the mountain between the coastal region, and the desert. It would be perfectly clear, when on the edge of the desert, thunderheads will form. You can watch a see if they ever make it to you, or if they die out. If they do, then you get wet. If not, you stay dry.
If you were an agriculturalist, and your life depended on the cloud not petering out, and if you were inclined to see god as acting in nature, you would pray to the god of the desert, for it to bring that cloud closer to the coast, to water your fields.
Let's say, in the time of your ancestors, the rain would come down the coast from the north, and they prayed to that god which lived in that place, the origin of those thunder storms, Baal and everything worked out for the good. But in your own time, the rains never came from there and you had to wait for them to come from the desert, you would find your allegiance shifting and no longer will you pray to Baal, but to Yahweh, The god of Sinai

reply to post by jmdewey60


Well, you, from what I have gleaned over the years, did a fairly decent summation of how Yahweh rose to power. When one reads of Moses, it becomes clear that there were various "deities" vying for a position in ancient times. We are all familiar with the story of the Golden Calf and such.

SOT - I've read your posts over the years, and it always seems that you at least try to keep an open mind. You really need to keep that attribute because it will serve you well, in due time. Just when you think you have something about God figured out, he will throw you a fast ball, that you won't even see coming.

Have you ever heard the audible voice of God? Apparently not or you would understand why people are afraid of it and relate the sound to thunder. His voice permeates into everything and when people start to understand this, they will get a better grip on how things were spoken into creation in the first place. Everything vibrates. And Jesus was with him from the beginning and that is why he is called "the word."

For "The Word" to dwell in you, one must have the love of God in their hearts. One may not understand or even want to contemplate biblical things that happened thousands of years ago but if you are being honest with yourselves you can't cherry pick which of Jesus' teachings you will accept and which you choose to discard. The fact remains that Jesus quoted King David, who worshipped the God of the OT. The fact remains, he stood up in the synagogue and read from the book of Isaiah, who also worshipped the God of the OT. He quoted the commandments and even said Moses himself wrote about HIM.

There is a huge difference in thinking you know something and knowing for a fact, that you know something.

Jesus told his fellow Jews, "You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent." John 5:37-38 Seeing Yah's face is reserved for the pure of heart, but seeing his form and hearing his voice are quite attainable. He never meant to be sought in vain, but sadly few find true life because they don't know how to properly apply the teachings that lead to the narrow gate.

And just as a side note, God's personal name given as a memorial to all generations is Yahveh. I don't think I know that, I know that for a fact.



[edit on 10-2-2010 by Myrtales Instinct]

I haven't caught up on the thread completely yet, I was thinking of starting one similar myself.

Allow me to offer for your consideration my God; the Eternal Blue Sky, at times called Tengri. The Sky to me is the ultimate in Unity in near infinite diversity. At once the image of the invisible God and actually being the major active force of the invisible.

While standing on the earth, looking up, Sky appears to be a solid bowl; as in the air is invisible and the top is solid. This is optical illusion. All there truly is, is trillions of individual molecules; thicker closer to earth and progressively thinner the higher up. There is no solid barrier at the top. And yet we know the earth is roughly spherical and the Sky encompasses all. At once the Protector from various deadly cosmic rays and smaller meteorites, and also the Provider of life. In Sky is contained the atoms that make up organic life: Oxygen, Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen.

We all, living creatures are participators in the Living God, for we breathe. As once said, 'In Him we live and breathe and have our being.' Who is 'the chosen people'? Those who live under Sky; every nation, tribe, tongue, and people. One people under God.

I don't imagine lesser gods or fallen gods creating a crappy world like the Gnostics imagine. Evolution is creation. The One God is around the earth, and within us through the billions of years. Before we walked on two legs God is with us. Before we could speak, God is with us. In us God walks and talks and feels and knows Himself.

The lesser gods, storms, clouds, trees, what have you are participators also. Reincarnation is the incarnation of God in us.

It has been extremely obvious to me for quite some time that OT YHWH bears no resemblance whatsoever to my God. YHWH demands one tribe to conquer and destroy others and wipe out all trace that tribes existed. The penalty for not doing genocide is near genocide. That's YHWH. Violent, cruel, and exclusive.

The massive mistake Christians make is to assume OT YHWH is the Father Jesus spoke of and make up a trinity with YHWH as part. Therefore the false Christian trinity will always be violent, cruel, and exclusive.

My God demands nothing. No one is required to kill anyone else. My God doesn't speak at all except as a person speaking to people. There are other messengers who speak sometimes too. Love your neighbor as yourself and you are loving God.



[edit on 10-2-2010 by pthena]

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
SOT - I've read your posts over the years, and it always seems that you at least try to keep an open mind. You really need to keep that attribute because it will serve you well, in due time. Just when you think you have something about God figured out, he will throw you a fast ball, that you won't even see coming.

Firstly, let me thank you for compliment. I have always tried to be fair, though a bit zealous in what I personally believe.

Myrtles, certainly, there are parts of the OT that I think probably actually came from THE GOD. The Ten commandments being oneof them. HOWEVER, I cannot reconcile the God that I know with most of the OT god.

There is just no way that a person can convince me that the loving,caring,forgiving, compassionate God that I know, sactioned a vast majority of the things that he/she/it is supposed to have in the OT.

reply to post by pthena


For the most part, at least in regards to personality characteristics, you God and mine are the same. I certainly agree that there are no "chosen" groups of people. All people are God's chosen.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


You are welcome for the compliment, I truly meant it.

Well, don't blame blame a girl for trying. My Yah is a God of love, but you know we live in a fallen realm and that is why there is sickness, death, pain, misery, worry and way too many broken hearts.

See ya around.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


That's all too true.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
Quite often the word Heaven is used as Sky. And sometimes Heaven is used interchangeably for God. Jesus seems to have used that convention.

If YHWH rides the storm cloud, Heaven is still above him.
At night when the blue is not seen, still the Sky is there.
Through Him you see forever; lens to eternity.
Even when Heaven is completely occluded by cloud, yet in our heart we know Heaven is there and we shall see Him again.
To me He is the best image of the invisible God.

It is said that of all animals, dogs understand humans the most, because of all animals they spent the most time together as companions of man through some thousands of years of evolution. We matured together. In the same way, humanity knows of a better God than the warring clan gods. Compare the ideals we know; universal justice, universal freedom of religion, the extreme possibility of peace, the capability of sharing with all people of the earth. Harmony with nature. We have these ideals. We feel them in our souls, and yet our hearts are broken for these ideals are only realized between individuals and are ignored by the power brokers of the world, the governments and religious institutions, the alliances of state and politically motivated religions.

As human people, we have evolved. The powers have not. For example the Israel supreme court has authorized the building in Jerusalem of 'The Museum of Human Dignity and Tolerance'. It is being built on a centuries old Muslim cemetery which is being desecrated in the process.
www.guardian.co.uk...
Any human with feeling can see the extreme irony, and yet institutions with power and authority are blind, and they're made up of blind people. Of course it makes perfect sense to a worshiper of the old clan god that demanded the desecration of any site not dedicated to his exclusive use. The Jews are his exclusively, Arabs and Muslims don't count as human even. Not there, not in YHWH's city.

This illustrates perfectly the differece between the old and the new. The pushing out and elimination of the not quite human. It was done before, on the North American continent. The white predominantly Christian 'manifest destiny' had no place for people living in the way of 'from sea to shining sea.' This isn't ancient history. 'The white man's burden' is alive and well as the US Empire continues to expand it's military presence into 90% of the nations of the world. This continues as the American's praise the very ideals that they actively violate. With their mouths only do they have ideals.

This is the out of whackness we are living through, even as for many people the shackles of the old institutionalized power religions loose their grip on hearts and minds, still the monied powers use the old religions to delude and lead the 'patriotic religious' to their own and everyones doom. This is the unbalance. This is the strong delusion. How it will end I don't know, the old religions have it worked out.

reply to post by pthena


That's a good post. I completely agree. Things are a changing though,pthena.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
It seems the delusion will remain right up to the end, if indeed there is an end. I don't have any independent confirmation of an end. The written scriptures seem to speak of such a thing. Regardless of end or no end, let us strive even now to shine a light! We don't need uniformity of religion. The truth is One, no matter the trappings it wears.

reply to post by pthena


Well, there is a difference between the "end" and THE END. You see, I know that I am going to step on some proverbial toes, but the "end" is not going to be the way that most think it is. Most religious persons have concocted an imaginary "ending" in their minds. They don't understand the symbolism in scripture.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
I'd be interested in hearing of the end and/or THE END. Personally, I've dumped my preconceived notions. As a rogue/unconfirmed shaman I've been concentrating on detecting the nature of delusion and addressing that. It's in the job description, restore balance. Most likely that's beyond me, nevertheless...

reply to post by pthena


Well, typically, when people think of the "end times," they refer to the book of Revelation. What the book of Revelation is detailing is the end of the age, or the world AS WE KNOW IT. Really it's the description of the crumbling of the current world system.

Now, in all truthfulness, much of Revelation has already occurred. However, most are ignorant of this because it is not what they conceived it to be in their imaginations. They do not recognize the symbolism of the book of Revelation. They tend to think of it in literal terms. I'm not saying that horrible things won't occur, but it's not, and hasn't been, going to be in the magnitude of which they have imagined.

Now, THE END will be when all things return to its original source. When the Great omnipotent Deity decidesto turn off the cosmic computer and essentially says, "This is getting boring."

THE UNIVERSE'S END



[edit on 11-2-2010 by SpeakerofTruth]

Pthena,here is something that all people need to understand about the "end times" and the book of Revelation:

Because of intricate and unusual symbolic language, the Book of Revelation is hard for modern people to read. They are not used to this kind of literature. Not so for people in the ancient world who would have been more accustomed to the complex nature of apocalyptic literature. The very fact that an apocalypse was a common type of literature meant that if followed certain conventions of style, and people knew more what to expect from it. Because there were many other examples of apocalyptic writing, these conventions would have seemed less strange and cryptic. Also, apocalyptic literature was almost always a kind of literature for "insiders," that is to say, it was written for people who already knew something of the situation and of the symbols that were used to portray it. So, for the original audience of the Revelation of John, all these strange scenes would have been immediately intelligible. What the modern reader or biblical scholar has to do is to try to read the text with "ancient eyes," by being informed about the way the literature worked and the situation out of which it came.

Ancient mind

One has to have an understanding of the mind frame of the ancient mind to understand the book of Revelation.For example, the collapsing of the world trade centers would have indeed been apocalyptic in the mind of an ancient prophet or sage. To the modern man, it was horrible,but life goes on. Read Chapter 9 of the book of Revelation and tell me what you think that describes....Keep WTC in mind when you read it.

Here is the portion of chapter nine that I am referring to:

9:9 They had breastplates, like breastplates of iron. The sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, or of many horses rushing to war.

9:10 They have tails like those of scorpions, and stings. In their tails they have power to harm men for five months.

9:11 They have over them as king the angel of the abyss. His name in Hebrew is "Abaddon," but in Greek, he has the name "Apollyon."

9:12 The first woe is past. Behold, there are still two woes coming after this.

Source

[edit on 12-2-2010 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

One has to have an understanding of the mind frame of the ancient mind to understand the book of Revelation.For example, the collapsing of the world trade centers would have indeed been apocalyptic in the mind of an ancient prophet or sage. To the modern man, it was horrible,but life goes on. Read Chapter 9 of the book of Revelation and tell me what you think that describes....Keep WTC in mind when you read it.

As a matter of fact the WTC collapse was apocalyptic to me, so much so that I was suffering the effects of it already a couple of weeks ahead of time. I was feeling the horrors of massive war, even though at the time only Sri Lanka had a low-level conflict, Sudan had North/South civil war, and one of the Congo republics had a civil conflict. What I felt seemed way out of proportion.

Revelation 9 The locusts: Locusts are eaters by nature, though I don't think eating is mentioned. So say taking something away, which would leave people in a state of grieving. I think vs 6 is key here.

5 They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

After the event I had a typical(at least for some types) survivors guilt phase, but as I read the pleas of NGOs attempting to help the Afghan people, and the despair as the roads were blocked, as the bombs were falling on Red Cross grain storage and UN de-mining details, and wedding parties and funeral parties, that survivor's guilt morphed into envy of the dead. Yet death did not come for me.

After knowing what 'the US at war' meant to people in Afghanistan I walked into a CostCo and looked around at the masses of goods available in the shopping warehouse and the shoppers picking and choosing; I knew then what 'the US at war' meant to Americans. I lost my mind and heart completely. I'm still a disabled person as a result. Envy of the dead is a frequent companion of mine.

The release of the four angels at Euphrates

Contrast the world scene before US invasion of Iraq with the world scene now. Completely unrecognizable. What was there before? Three low level conflicts? Now, the whole world militarized. US engineered coup of Haiti. Darfur genocide, US sponsored Ethiopean invasion of Somolia, destabilizing Kenya in the process, US supplied bombing of Lebanon by Israel, US trained and supplied Georgian attack on a South Ossetia, US expansion into Pakistan. etc etc etc

I'm sorry, but I find no comfort here.

REV 9:20 The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Since I feel the sting of the locusts, am I to assume then that I'm not of the group sealed by God on the forehead? Then what is my relationship to those not repenting people in verse 20-21? This doesn't look like an invitation to repent, it looks like a destined non-repentance. I don't see hope here.


[edit on 12-2-2010 by pthena]