What's with the uptick in religious fundamentalism on ATS

triple post! YIKES!

[edit on 14-1-2010 by OldDragger]

double post

[edit on 14-1-2010 by OldDragger]

reply to post by The Riley Family


I think the point I was trying to make is this: in many faith based paradigms, there is a very definitive attempt to defuse any logical arguments based on the fact that they're logical.
I you look at some of the published speeches from the discovery institute folks they talk repeatedly about defusing logical arguments.
They do this by suggesting there are two ways of looking at the world, the bible based view, which uses as its foundation the teachings of the Bible, and the beginning point for all intellectual viewpoints is based on what the Bible says.
The argument then goes that us scientifically minded folks can never understand bible based believers because we don't accept their beginning thesis, that the Bible is the unalterable word of God and that it is the basis for all truth.
You can't really have a thoughtful discussion when the end point of the argument is: because the Bible says so.

Originally posted by kenochs
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

 

Also, wouldn't it be nice if there were a sure thing... well beyond the knowledge of our own mortality.
[edit on 14-1-2010 by kenochs]

"Death and Taxes"....Sure things

Peace...

reply to post by endisnighe

End,
Nice Maud Dib quote, I have always been a big fan.
And I do see your point about end time hysteria being the 'death throes' of the movement. Though I don't agree with you, it's kinda like saying the Iraqi insurgency was in it's 'last throes.' News of its deat was greatly exaggerated.

yes it could be that the religions and churches are having the proverbial "field day" in wake of the increase in public outing of nwo stuff, 2012, police-state, and all other awakenings in weird quantem sciences pointing to consciousness having effect on matter. It must be great times for churchmen, cults etc. the religious become more religious, and i suppose athiest more athiest (sorry cant spell that, but dont flame me - i already know but thanks for getting wound up!!)
I had a delve into the google search archive data for real time search queries starting with "obama is"... and i got a list of 150 of them. they were all , is..irish..is jewish..is muslim.. or .. is antichrist - that one search string alone is generates some 49500 google queries PER MONTH ! - i did make a thread about this - but after a comment to me implying - it seemed - that i was totally in the wrong to post that kind of thing, so i edited out the list of data in the post so that people were not offended by it. I was mearly trying to be topical and offering some interesting data. so i wont do that again !!!
Everything seems to turn to religion wars these days. I shall have to re-do my Atavar here cos it says the word evil and about rfid barcodes, so people dont like it or think that im christian. This is all humanuity turning in against itself. tearing itself apart. its like - i think there is some quote likening this to a tree's branches fighting against its self, strangling itself with its own greed for light. --or something like that.

but i do totally agree a lot of science is kinda discarded in favor of looking at the irrational first. I think to be a erm.. "conspiracy theorist" you need to be somewhat of a scientist and look at the hard facts of the matter first. but also apreciate that things are not always as they at first seem or cannot often be measured or detected by usual means.

I read something about the blocks of the pyramid being moved in place not by blood sweat of thousands of slaves, but by some weird manipulation of matter making it defy gravity. Now, people would fall about laughing if i told them i consider that is a great possibility. ... but yet these people may hold a beleif that the world was created out of thin air like a ball of playdoh and little animals put on it etc. Surly if you can have in your mind this possibility - then why is floating blocks built the pryamid seems a totally crazy crazy thing. its like saying y = x + m , and yet later saying that m has no relationship to y.

Originally posted by kenochs
reply to post by The Riley Family

 

I think the point I was trying to make is this: in many faith based paradigms, there is a very definitive attempt to defuse any logical arguments based on the fact that they're logical.

Yes There maybe those that do this. It may be based on the same mentality of being faithful in the unknown things.

I you look at some of the published speeches from the discovery institute folks they talk repeatedly about defusing logical arguments.
They do this by suggesting there are two ways of looking at the world, the bible based view, which uses as its foundation the teachings of the Bible, and the beginning point for all intellectual viewpoints is based on what the Bible says.

They may do this, sure, but that still doesn't mean their belief is actually in the teachings of the bible. We have run into many people who claim to believe in the bible but admit they don't believe what it actually says. They believe in church doctrine instead.

The argument then goes that us scientifically minded folks can never understand bible based believers because we don't accept their beginning thesis, that the Bible is the unalterable word of God and that it is the basis for all truth.
You can't really have a thoughtful discussion when the end point of the argument is: because the Bible says so.

But the point is why would you take a group of people who say they believe/have faith in unknown things and accept their understanding of the bible as fact? How is this skepticism?

I honestly think that a good bit of the influx of religious fundamentalists is the great Terms of Service enforcement here on ATS.

I have seen some other sites where the overly religious as well as the overly conspiratorial really tear each other to shreds with name calling and a hostile posting environment.

A lot of sites out there are not anywhere near as well run or supervised as ATS is. It makes for a much friendlier environment for all types.

The numbers of people who are trapped in the Left/Right political divide East/West politics and Religion do seem to be growing on ATS.

Though it’s possible my own arguments against these things are making them join these things and take sides on them just to spite me!

reply to post by The Riley Family

I'm not sure I understand your point anymore... I didn't say anything about accepting it. What I said is that I am okay of the concept that some things are unknowable, be it in reference to God, or to what came before the Big Bang (though I actually think that's knowable, or will be).
I accept it because the people who believe it don't use science as their basis for believing... they use faith.
I don't question someone's faith, I question someone who uses their faith to make a quasi-scientific explanation for how the world works.
In other words, if you want to believe that God made the world in 6 days more power to you. I am aware that any amount of science I lay down to suggest otherwise, you won't accept. So, I have to let it go.
So, the issue I have on ATS, are people telling me that humans rode dinosaurs, and put unicorns on the Ark, and the can prove it. If you suggest otherwise and lay out scientific points to prove your point, the ultimate end to the argument is... the bible says so.
Still, maybe you and I are talking at cross purposes here.

Originally posted by kenochs
reply to post by The Riley Family

 

I'm not sure I understand your point anymore... I didn't say anything about accepting it. What I said is that I am okay of the concept that some things are unknowable, be it in reference to God, or to what came before the Big Bang (though I actually think that's knowable, or will be).
I accept it because the people who believe it don't use science as their basis for believing... they use faith.

Exactly our point, this is not faith, at least from a biblical perspective.

I don't question someone's faith, I question someone who uses their faith to make a quasi-scientific explanation for how the world works.
In other words, if you want to believe that God made the world in 6 days more power to you. I am aware that any amount of science I lay down to suggest otherwise, you won't accept. So, I have to let it go.

Yes it is understood why you would question the faith of those who explain things the way they do. But what we are saying is that many non-religious accept their view of the bible as if it is what is says. Believe in the bible or not the best way to argue these points is using the same source of argument they use. The scriptures themselves very easily discredit their arguments. We know we do it all the time and they are left with admitting they themselves question the validity of the bible. End of argument, they walk away enlightened whether they like it or not.

So, the issue I have on ATS, are people telling me that humans rode dinosaurs, and put unicorns on the Ark, and the can prove it. If you suggest otherwise and lay out scientific points to prove your point, the ultimate end to the argument is... the bible says so.

Exactly, but remember these are the very people who base their belief in the unknown. There seems to be something quite strange about that.

But the bible doesn't say so, in fact it says the complete opposite and this definitely can be proven, it is in the very scriptures they tote around.

What makes no sense is those that take the interpretation of the ones that think this way as being credible.

Still, maybe you and I are talking at cross purposes here.

Don't think so, but it maybe rather you are not used to someone who feels religion should be substantiated by what is proven to be scientific facts. Anything else is believing in fables and should be re-thought.

[edit on 14-1-2010 by The Riley Family]

[edit on 14-1-2010 by The Riley Family]

I call it the Glen Beck effect. He makes a living by letting people think they are in on something no one else knows or has figured out.A speudo conspiracy theory.

So naturally whats the next step? a website.

That is why you see so many Obama rantings and religion and etc. Just watch Glen Beck and you will see it show up on ATS.

Originally posted by kenochs
reply to post by The Riley Family

 

I don't question someone's faith, I question someone who uses their faith to make a quasi-scientific explanation for how the world works.
In other words, if you want to believe that God made the world in 6 days more power to you. I am aware that any amount of science I lay down to suggest otherwise, you won't accept. So, I have to let it go.

Another thing to think about. The reason they don't want to except reason is because they think they would have to question their faith. If they question their faith then they believe they would no longer be faithful. They feel reason discredits the scriptures and by accepting reason they would deny the scriptures. It is actually not the scriptures that would be denied but their interpretations of it, their indoctrination. You would think they would question their own interpretation but it is the interpretation they have faith in not the scriptures. If one digs into the surface you would find they really don't believe in the bible. Even to the non-religious this is obvious. Christians are supposed to even love their enemy but you find Christians mistreat their fellow Christians and many others. Even though they do good things to many it still does not justify the mistreatment of others.

You say they have faith. Faith based on what, not knowing, because the bible says so? So can you make a quasi-scientific explanation to this actually being biblical?

reply to post by arbiture


I think you'll find Dr. Love was kidding...

It's most likely due to the economy: a lot of these people are probably newly unemployed with a lot of time on their hands and fear in their minds. They are poorly equipped to deal with either, as they are taught that idle hands are the devil's workshop, and the Abrahamic religions are geared towards amplifying fear, not diminshing it. The greater the fear, the stronger the faith, and with the exception of Judaism, the stronger the impulse to proselytize, so as to save one's own soul by getting recruiting credits.

I don't let myself get sucked into discussion, much less arguments, with them, no point arguing with a sack of rocks.

With the very nature of this board being about conspiracy theories,UFO's,
2012,end of the world...You are going to attract a number of people who
will express their beliefs,even if you don't agree with them.

In my opinion,what could be more controversial or conspiratorial than
a christian trying to prove the Bible? There have been many threads
posted that got members really fired up on both sides,believers and non
believers.
For your information,I am a fundamental christian.

reply to post by kenochs

Any thoughts?

Yes, I have a few. I too have noticed a lot of threads high-jacked by fundies trying to further their agenda, make even more tax free dollars, and try to get us all to give "heart and soul," not to mention power, to their idea of a Godman they made up for us.
It's not just here, either, they are in every conspiracy forum, and every other forum too.
In one forum I belong to we had to band together to get rid of one guy. Every post was endless Bible quotes copied and pasted from another site. And, like most Christians, he had obviously never read the book first hand, but only passages from the book like every other Christian. I have even once joined a Christian forum, and as soon as I began to ask things, and say things not of their agenda, or spoke of Wicca, or the Goddess, I got banned with prejudice. Double Standard here, folks. Sometimes I just wish they would post their own feelings, from the heart, instead of Bible quote after Bible quote. And please stop trying to shove your brand of religion down our collective throats, and sweep off your own back porch before complaining about ours. I am sure you will get exactly what is coming to you in the end, but the rest of us are just not interested. Anyway, isn't Heaven about full by now? Any one of you willing to give up your seat for a poor sinner? Thought so. Rant off. One more thing, before I go, just in case you are in denial....

1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ

Originally posted by autowrench
Thought so. Rant off. One more thing, before I go, just in case you are in denial....

1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ

To be fair, you might have wanted to include the many charitable works done by Christian organizations. I am personally familiar with the works of US Catholic Charities. If you are interested, look them up.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
I call it the Glen Beck effect. He makes a living by letting people think they are in on something no one else knows or has figured out.A speudo conspiracy theory.

So naturally whats the next step? a website.

That is why you see so many Obama rantings and religion and etc. Just watch Glen Beck and you will see it show up on ATS.

I actually see the same thing in the opinion page of my local newspaper. Letters get published that are basically parroting the conservative head talking points from a few days before all the time.

Originally posted by mike_trivisonno
reply to post by kenochs

 

I think Julian Jaynes' "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" will shed light on why religion and feelings of faith arise in virtually every single instance of human development and how the vestiges of our past are carried forward into the present through the expression of religious and political structures used for social control.

Brilliant man.

How did you get 'social control' from Julian Jaynes book 'Bicameral Mind?

That's why

[edit on 14/1/10 by blupblup]