Videos of soldiers abusing Iraqi children and Animals

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by The_Archangel

 

Sorry dude, but no one is claiming that U.S. soldiers are above reproach, we just don't support cheaply made propaganda garbage like you do in order to bash U.S. troops. when they commit crimes.

However your willingness to support the propaganda lies that are posted at the beginning of this threat does support the religious fanatics who kill innocent women and children in Iraq in a regular basis.

Fox News

Wahington Post

CNN

New York Times

Have a look through a few of these propaganda outlets, especially FOX NEWS, as that communist channel is well known for being anti-US

Do not make me out to be a sponge for BS. I've spent a number of years in the Middle East and especially Iraq. Take of the rose tinted glass and so the facts for what they are.

reply to post by Mike_A


I love it how some people ignore all the video's that are blatant evidence of the sickness and pick on the one video that was not credible

reply to post by Mike_A

And you think soldiers enjoy it? Are you so self important that you think your opinions magically become fact, that you can know this with absolutely no experience of the training or fighting soldiers actually do? That is what I find so insulting about your posts, you are painting all soldiers as this stereotypical unthinking war junky and you state as fact with absolutely no experience.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never wrote that soldiers enjoy killing. I just stated that the military uses psychological techniques to erase mental barriers, which prevent people from killing fellow humans. The same barriers prevent most people from using extreme violence. If these barriers are erased, more extreme violence is likely to happen. I never described soldiers as unthinking war junkies. That are more words you put into my mouth.

I stated that many young people who enlist often lack experience, which often comes with age. Not most, but many recruits after 9/11 and the anthrax-attacks have fallen for government propaganda. How many young men wanted to get revenge by punishing the muslims, Iraq and Saddam Hussein? They have enlisted for the wrong reasons. They have believed lies.

And no Grossman does not agree with you, he does not agree that soldiers are “killing machines” or that “all natural barriers which keep soldiers from mistreating their fellow humans are battered down” or that soldiers “always” follow orders or that soldiers are brainwashed. There is a huge difference between firing back at someone who is trying to kill you and having no barrier to mistreating fellow humans or being brainwashed.

The same barrier which keeps people from killing their own kind also prevents extreme violence. This barrier is purposeful erased in military training. Grossman does agree with me on this.

Brutalization and desensitization are what happen at boot camp. From the moment you step off the bus you are physically and verbally abused: countless pushups, endless hours at attention or running with heavy loads, while carefully trained professionals take turns screaming at you. Your head is shaved, you are herded together naked and dressed alike, losing all individuality. This brutalization is designed to break down your existing mores and norms and to accept a new set of values that embrace destruction, violence, and death as a way of life.

www.professorenforum.de...

The paper from Grossman is about training people to kill other people. It is not about conditioning which is used in drills to implant the hierarchical military command structure. But this is also part of basic training. I have never said that soldiers always follow orders, I said they are drilled to do this. I find it hard to believe, that you missed that drill during military training.

A code of conduct is also taught, but in a war zone conditioning usually will overrule it. Thousands of soldiers have followed criminal orders. The Milgram experiment has shown, that even civilians will follow unethical orders, given by persons of authority. Only few soldiers have the courage and independence to stand up against an unlawful order and say: “No Sir, I will not do this, that is against the law”.

So please, stop telling other people how they think, they know better than you do.

There is a huge difference between firing back at someone who is trying to kill you and having no barrier to mistreating fellow humans or being brainwashed.

Most people killed in modern wars are not out to kill you. They are civilians. If you are offended by the term brainwashing, here is definition of the term:

1.Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.

2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.

www.thefreedictionary.com...

And here is what Grossman wrote about the purpose of boot camp training:

This brutalization is designed to break down your existing mores and norms and to accept a new set of values that embrace destruction, violence, and death as a way of life.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by Drunkenshrew]

reply to post by The_Archangel


Your attempts to paint all U.S. soldiers as thugs is pure BS. First of all, these additional links do nothing to prove the original videos are not fakes, which they are.

Second, a few incidents that were punished by the U.S. military do not reflect on the entire U.S. military, or most U.S. soldiers, or even a sizable number of U.S. soldiers.

If you want to trade links about who is committing the violence, no problem.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Although about 80% of insurgent attacks are targeted against coalition forces, the Iraqi population suffers about 80% of all casualties, according to US officials in late 2005.

And probably there was a very high percentage of women and children killed by the insurgents.

www.npr.org...

The province of Anbar in western Iraq has been called the poster child for success in defeating Iraqi insurgents. Once a killing field, it spawned a homegrown tribal uprising against al-Qaida in Iraq.

But a slow drumbeat of assassinations and bombings raises questions about stability in Anbar. It appears that insurgents are exploiting a complicated power struggle in the province. And it may be a sign of things to come in Iraq now that the U.S. military doesn't seem to be playing a major role there anymore.

Anger in Anbar has gained strength as security in the province weakens. This month, a few hundred protesters took to the streets of the provincial capital, Ramadi, to demand a change.

The demonstrators chanted "Save us" and "We've been sold out." The slogans are a dig at the most powerful tribal sheik in Anbar, Ahmed Abu Risha. Members of Abu Risha's family were among the first to fight al-Qaida alongside the Americans. But now, his former allies say Abu Risha is making millions off reconstruction deals, but not providing security or services.

news.xinhuanet.com...

9 wounded in Baghdad bombings

www.latimes.com...

Iraq suicide bombing kills 25

www.irishtimes.com...

Seven killed in Iraq bombings

news.xinhuanet.com...

www1.voanews.com...

This is all within the last few weeks, and just the first page of the search.

So you have been all over the Middle East? What camp did you train in?

I have never been there, have no desire, but I have known many people who have, including people who grew up there. I find your opinion very slanted.

Originally posted by Barkster

I never said forgive them. What a tool. Learn to read. What the hell have you done to stop the war? Have you written any letters, emails, protested, anything? Yes you will get what you deserve for being nothing but a critic and a spector. Tell me what do you know of the government? The constitution? Your another i-diot that thinks he knows something about the world while doing nothing to change it.
Deal with it!

[edit on 11-1-2010 by Barkster]

Your a pretty angry person Barkster.

I reiterated the blame part just a few paragraphs down in my original reply to yours that you've overquoted on, so your cherry picking for negative rebuttal is bunk.

You also assume that I've done none of the items above when nothing could be further from the truth. Sadly, your ignorance shines through once again.

Finally the name calling is against the rules here at ATS so you've proven your level of intelligence thrice fold now.

Oh, and before I forget, you need to read the rules on quoting because you broke that one too. Or do you just need to learn how to read?

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by The_Archangel

 

Your attempts to paint all U.S. soldiers as thugs is pure BS. First of all, these additional links do nothing to prove the original videos are not fakes, which they are.

If you care to take the time to look through my posts you'll realise that isnt the case. Do not pick up on one post from a contributer with out doing your reaserch and paper trail as it makes you come across as being 'half baked' and clutter forums such as this with tittle tattle. I have worked closely with a number of americans and know that the world view that the the general public are ' a fat and thick' is not true much in the same way that I know that all the troops are not war mongering lunatics who murder not only the civpop, the comrades and themselves.

Have you served? Have you experiance of Iraq or Afghanistan? I have and I speak from experience...do you?

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by The_Archangel

 

If you want to trade links about who is committing the violence, no problem.

Yet again, read my post and look at the thread. The post is focused on US military crimes not on the justification of their presence.

reply to post by poet1b


www.independent.co.uk...

Though no amount of evidence will ever convince you, you are I'm afraid delusional.



[edit on 11-1-2010 by Occy Anonymous]

In support of this thread we should all take naked pictures of ourselves. It would be politically inclined art. I know celebrities do this, but it would really hit home if average, out-of-shape, everyday people posed naked for animal rights.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by The_Archangel

 

So you have been all over the Middle East? What camp did you train in?

I have never been there, have no desire, but I have known many people who have, including people who grew up there. I find your opinion very slanted.

I have been to the US Camps of:

1. Victory (Baghdad)
2. Liberty (Baghdad)
3. Striker (Baghdad)
4. Stryker (Baghdad)
5. Justice (Baghdad)
6. Falcon (Baghdad)
7. Cuervo (Baghdad)
8. Gunslinger (Baghdad)
9. Taji (North of Baghdad)
10. Kalsu (Iskandariya)
11. Hilla (Hilla)
12. Viper (Ur)
13. Bucca (Umm Qasr)
14. The Green Zone
15. The US Embassy

Amongst many others. Whilst there I worked alongside a number of national and especially Iraqi civilains and US troops so therefore I have a 'experiance'. I suggest, therefore, that I can speak with more validity than you on this matter.

Those soldiers need to be tried for war crimes. Just because America is a super power doesn't give us the right to abuse other people in the world. That's why people hate us so much.

reply to post by The_Archangel


I don't care where you have been, it is clear you still carry around a great deal of bias, which makes your opinion biased, and therefore unreliable. Yes, I served in the military, but long before either gulf war.

If you aren't trying to bash all, or a majority of, U.S. soldiers then why are you bring up decades old events, and supporting a thread with fake evidence?

Can you show me a link where you do not come off as biased against U.S. soldiers, because I haven't seen one?

You all think this stops when these valiant soldiers return home?? OH, how sadly mistaken you are. Most of these guys coming back home get jobs as security and police officers and they just continue all of this on the good old United States Citizens!!! I would give you examples of what is going on where I live but cannot because of fear of retribution and harrassment. I love living in the good old US of A!!!

Originally posted by The_Archangel

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by The_Archangel

 

So you have been all over the Middle East? What camp did you train in?

I have never been there, have no desire, but I have known many people who have, including people who grew up there. I find your opinion very slanted.

I have been to the US Camps of:

1. Victory (Baghdad)
2. Liberty (Baghdad)
3. Striker (Baghdad)
4. Stryker (Baghdad)
5. Justice (Baghdad)
6. Falcon (Baghdad)
7. Cuervo (Baghdad)
8. Gunslinger (Baghdad)
9. Taji (North of Baghdad)
10. Kalsu (Iskandariya)
11. Hilla (Hilla)
12. Viper (Ur)
13. Bucca (Umm Qasr)
14. The Green Zone
15. The US Embassy

Amongst many others. Whilst there I worked alongside a number of national and especially Iraqi civilains and US troops so therefore I have a 'experiance'. I suggest, therefore, that I can speak with more validity than you on this matter.

Where is striker? i know where stryker is been there even been to strike which is in mosul.Care to shed some light on this for me? Oh and where in the green zone where you a guest at the Al-Rasheed Hotel? If youve been to the green zone have 1 question where is headquarters? do you know? just curious if im betting bs or you've been there. Can ask other questions as well since ive been to at least 5 of the 15 but i figure ill give you the benefit of the doubt just answer what i asked thanks.

I refuse to even click on these links, because your thread serves no purpose other than to attack our MIL, and to make them appear as unstable and insane individuals. My entire life has been spent in and around the MIL, ever since birth, and you are so far off base that I hardly even see the purpose in adding to your ATS point count.

Our MIL is FULL of heroes, and I dare anyone to say different to my face (I regret the playground taunt of sorts, but that is how I honestly feel).

Where is your video which displays and then bashes the Taliban? What about Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, or Saddam's infamous Republican Guard? Yeah, that is what I thought.

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen


We have the everyday media to show us all those videos of the tliban but none to show these.

and your military is by and large filled with heroes.
BUT IT IS NOT FULL OF HEROES, And I would say it to your face a hundred had I the chance.

How can you seriously believe EVERYONE in the Military is a hero?
Yes, like I said many times before, most of them ARE HEROES, but NOT EVERYONE, there is a number of them that are nothing but cowardly, racist, evil people.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by The_Archangel

 

I don't care where you have been, it is clear you still carry around a great deal of bias, which makes your opinion biased, and therefore unreliable. Yes, I served in the military, but long before either gulf war.

If you aren't trying to bash all, or a majority of, U.S. soldiers then why are you bring up decades old events, and supporting a thread with fake evidence?

Can you show me a link where you do not come off as biased against U.S. soldiers, because I haven't seen one?

Yet again you fail to paint a good picture of yourself and your observational skills. The links are there to show that there examples of how the evil actions of a few tarnsih the name of the rest. If you took the time to read the links you would have, I hope, seen the link. I'm continuing the verbal sparring with you as you constanly fail to grasp the point being made.

If bothered to look back over the last few pages you would see what I have writen but obviously you havent taken the time to do that and do feel I should drag you along for the ride.

Why did you ask me where I had been in Iraq then?

You may have been a former serviceman/woman, but unfortunately for you and you 'argument', the multi-media age is well and truely upon us and lots of kids with a gun are filming themselves and so dont have the sound judgement to censor what they film or who they pass it on to. Look at the advent of the Sex Tape. I'm sure Paris Hilton didnt wont to be caught in flagrante for all those internet pervs.

I will sign off to you with this. I have worked with US Forces on countless occasions and they are, on the whole good people in a difficult situation. During this and other conflicts, atrocities have been commited at the hands of US troops. This, in turn, has led to the US military and American people on the whole being tarnish as evil warmongers, no matter what their individual personal beliefs are.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by The_Archangel]

reply to post by The time lord


I definitely understand your point of view now but I totally disagree. Lead by example rarely works because people will have their own ideas anyway. Other countries arent just going to say 'hey look at that lets change our customs and laws' they are still in effect for a reason, people want it that way (majority or not).

I am just less optimistic I have seen war first hand and the mentality is always the same.


reply to post by The time lord


This post is brilliant!

reply to post by dragonridr


No, I wasnt a guest at the Al-Rasheed, but I have been there. Inside the Green Zone I stayed in a villa which was located inbetween those which Blackwater and EODT owned. Outside the Green Zone, I was in a villa north of Al-Rasheed, in the former Govermental residence compound. As for the the HQ, it depends what you mean as there are quite a few. The only one I dealt with was located within the conference centre complex. I you have futher question, I suggest that you PM as it isnt good OPSEC to spill you guts on an open forum about sensative locations.

reply to post by The_Archangel


There will always be bad apples that tarnish the rest, but they are by far the minority among U.S. troops.

The amount of atrocities committed by U.S. troops are far less in numbers than the atrocities of U.S. soldiers, and it is the decent Muslims who suffer the most from the acts of the Muslim radicals. I hope you recognize this.

Trying to claim that these videos represent the average U.S. soldier is simply not true, and a bad example of displaying an even handed understanding of the situation.

This type of propaganda is not acceptable to anyone with a degree of reason. I don't think you understand my position on the matter. My understanding of the situation is far better than you seem willing to recognize.