Jesus AKA God

Originally posted by oliveoil
Christianity is not a religion. your chart is wrong.

Kindly illuminate me on this puzzling statement.

What then, pray tell, is Christianity?

If it is not a religion, this thread in in the wrong forum.

Regards...kk

[edit on 10-1-2010 by kinda kurious]

reply to post by kinda kurious


ahh didnt see you over here on the next page.

Kindly illuminate me on this puzzling statement.

What then, pray tell, is Christianity?

If it is not a religion, this thread in in the wrong forum.

Regards...kk

Your Chart is wrong being that there are Muslim Christians and to be a Muslim is not a religion.The same with being a Hindu.As far as Christians not being a religion, your chart compares organized religion such as the Catholic religion to Other christian religions which are not the same.However, I should have made myself a little more clear, Christianity is not an organized religion. There, how is that better?

[edit on 10-1-2010 by oliveoil]

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

A thought is generated by our psychical bodies.

No, you are incorrect. Matter can not create matter.

Im not sure why you get hung up on the word 'carnal' for it is in the Bible.

Because the way you perceive the spirit and the flesh is not correct. and it seems to be warping your sense of reality in relation to your perception to God. After all God is spirit, and if you cant grasp certain truths about your own spirit how can you begin to know certain truths about God.?
( I dont mean this in a bad way, because everyone knows God in their own way) Im just saying this because if we are to discuss god (not the bible) We have to come to terms as to what the truth is.

Truth,
Carnal is of the flesh and is material and in itself is nothing but matter. Your spirit perceives what is good and evil not the flesh. Your spirit controls your body. ex. Does your arm move on its own? no of course not our mind wills are arm to move. this action is not just a mindless thought.

Im baffled at your confusion on how our physical bodies work.

I said...our physical bodies generate out thoughts. How is that matter creating matter? Thoughts are not a 'matter'. Dont get lost in the idea of matter and antimatter.....you cant categorize what is of spirit by determine what is matter and what is not.

There is a complex system of processes within our physical bodies that leads to our making of 'thoughts'. This system is electrical, chemical, and mechanical. Other things, can add color to a thought (no not a literal color) such as our feelings of love, hate, fear, desire, hopes ect....still the feeling creates a link in the electrical, chemical, and mechanical system that helps 'thoughts' be generated within our 'minds'. The mind would not work with out our senses, our nervous system, nerons, synapsis....all the phsycail bodily things that are a part of this complex system.

The trick is...being aware....of the nature....of a thought or feeling. Then being willing to learn...where and how did that thought or feeling generate within us, what inner or outer event or experience helped create that feeling or thought. Our mind does this in a automatic way for us sometimes, people learn to stay away from things that gave them a bad experience...people learn to not trust a 'object' because it led to a bad 'feeling'.

Things like self disciple can help a person learn how to be more in control of the 'feelings' and 'thoughts'. Not saying a hateful thought wont come up....but the will to face that thought and learn why the feelings of hate were connected to the thought....and learn about the deepest part of the self that desires that hateful reaction to something....this is a complex process,,,that many books could be written on and still it wont ever be all covered. It takes alot for a person to be willing to look at their deepest carnal self....so they can then see...what part of themselves needs healing and work. If one is not willing to face their deepest carnal self...how can one learn about their deepest spiritual self? They cant...they will only see glimpses of it.

Carnal is the flesh yes...but a carnal action doesnt need to have a physical action. You seem to be confused with the idea that even though carnal means flesh...then all things of carnal are very material things. Do you not understand a thought can have pure material intentions and gains....having no spiritual intentions within it?

Killing a man is a carnal action. There is nothing spiritual about killing a man. No matter which way you turn the coin...it still amounts to the same amount of change. Man has taken their own ways of flesh....and attached these ways to the image of what God is....misleading other men astray from their own purest spiritual nature. This is why it is dangerous to just accept something...and not discern it...with the Holy Spirit. If one is not careful, they only will think they know God....when God is saying back to them....you do not know me.

Things like pride, jealousy, selfishness, greed, and hate...are all carnal natures. We must work on these, we must understand where they originated from within us, it can take a lifetime to overcome them and understand why they are not a spiritual nature and how we can become better then such lower natures. Most people do not feel the need to worry about such things...they are more in survival mode then living while being aware mode. Every thought is something that we must stand up for...against the spirit of God...at some point in 'time'.

Why should we ourselves have to work on such things....if God was these things Theeself? Why should we work on jealousy, greed, pride, and anger...if God isnt perfect without these things also? We are to work on these things...because God is Holy....to learn this nature of God...we have to weigh and sift out our nature of flesh so we can then see what the nature of spirit really is.



[edit on 10-1-2010 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by LeoVirgo

Im baffled at your confusion on how our physical bodies work.
I said...our physical bodies generate out thoughts. How is that matter creating matter? Thoughts are not a 'matter'. Dont get lost in the idea of matter and antimatter.....you cant categorize what is of spirit by determine what is matter and what is not.

How can matter create anything on its own? IT CANT!!!! our bodys do not generate anything on there own.

There is a complex system of processes within our physical bodies that leads to our making of 'thoughts'. This system is electrical, chemical, and mechanical. Other things, can add color to a thought (no not a literal color) such as our feelings of love, hate, fear, desire, hopes ect....still the feeling creates a link in the electrical, chemical, and mechanical system that helps 'thoughts' be generated within our 'minds'. The mind would not work with out our senses, our nervous system, nerons, synapsis....all the phsycail bodily things that are a part of this complex system.

The electrical discharges only accompany ones thought THEY ARE NOT THE THOUGHT.

example: when you think of the word justice you are thinking of the meaning of the word not electrical discharges. Our thoughts or ideas are not material They take up no space, they have no color, no shape, no size,no weight, nothing, zip, ziltch, nada..

Carnal is the flesh yes...but a carnal action doesnt need to have a physical action. You seem to be confused with the idea that even though carnal means flesh...then all things of carnal are very material things. Do you not understand a thought can have pure material intentions and gains....having no spiritual intentions within it?

You are confused with thinking that thoughts are carnal in nature. Thoughts are just that...thoughts.These thoughts can be perceived as good or evil. Thought produces what matter cannot.ex. Building a house, driving a car, ect..

Killing a man is a carnal action. There is nothing spiritual about killing a man.

It is an evil action which can not be done without thinking about doing it. there is no physical action that can be done without first thinking about it.

Things like pride, jealousy, selfishness, greed, and hate...are all carnal natures.

If they do not take up space, have no weight, no size, shape, color,form, any physical attribute they are NOT CARNAL!!!!


No offense, but I feel that you are not paying attention. This is not rocket science, this is basic observational truths.

[edit on 10-1-2010 by oliveoil]

reply to post by oliveoil
It would probably be safest to assume that Jesus is god only in the same sense that Moses was YHWH in his time.

DT 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:

Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. 5 During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.

Moses spoke this in the first person, in the same paragraph in which he speaks of YHWH as a third person. This isn't strange for Moses because YHWH told him to speak in such a way.

EX 6:6 "Therefore, say to the Israelites: `I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. I will free you from being slaves to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment. 7 I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you to the land I swore with uplifted hand to give to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. I will give it to you as a possession. I am the LORD.' "

and also

EX 4:14 Then the LORD's anger burned against Moses and he said, "What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and his heart will be glad when he sees you. 15 You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do. 16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him. "

EX 7:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.

Jesus, as the prophet like Moses who was to come,(Dt 18:17) speaks quite consciously the words put in his mouth by the Father, just like Moses.

The YHWH of Moses, and Moses as YHWH, was strictly and completely a tribal god; concerned strictly with the welfare of Israel; every one else is to die, or suffer afflictions.

Some time before or after Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians, a prophet started claiming YHWH as much more universally concerned with gentiles also.

ISA 42:5 This is what God the LORD says--
he who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:

ISA 42:6 "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,

ISA 42:7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

ISA 42:8 "I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not give my glory to another
or my praise to idols.

Jesus came not only as Moses(tribal) but also conscious of this new wider mission (to the world). I find the statement in verse 8 above very troubling, for YHWH has a history of giving his glory to others, the god-man of Gen 18, Moses, Jesus, other prophets, and even angels. As recorded, Jesus used 'I Am' language more than Moses did. Look now at the warning by Jesus:

MK 13:5 Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, `I am he,' and will deceive many.

The warning seems to be concerning those who would claim to be YHWH in the way that Moses and Jesus were, as in speaking as God. Not many people have done this. Mohammed spoke as one given Qur'an by an angel. On the other hand, Bahá’u’lláh of the Baha'i faith made claims of 'being god' in the same way as Jesus, and even superior to Jesus, as in Jesus is the 'son', Baha'u'llah is 'the father'. This, it seems to me, is the kind of thing Jesus seemed to warn about.

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
The First Death is Death to yourself. All that is required is that you make yourself "Healthy". This is literally what the word "HOLY" means...Sanctified.

The verses you quote are referring to people who think their actions are justified but then end up being sins.

For example, men tell you that if you do not go to war to kill, then you will be killed in the flesh. Thus, the people themselves end up committing sins in order to try and "save themselves", but in reality they are actually losing themselves because they are committing sin.

The first death is the death of the flesh. Son of "man", is the body/flesh. Your parents(thus, "son") are men/flesh. Your flesh is a result of your parents. The 2nd death is the death of the soul, and that is the penalty for sins. Thus why Jesus does not take up the sword when "walking the path" in his life, and shows that it is better to die than to take up evil and fight back with sin. If he had committed sin in order to save himself, then he would have in the process lost himself.

He talks often about the path of death and destruction, as well as the way that seems right but isn't. And I don't know where in the world all this "procreation" stuff comes in, or this "Malcovich" point of view, but he was certainly not talking about that in those verses.

Wash the inside of the cup by stopping those things you are damaging yourself with. Understand that the Spirit is a swift witness against "Sorcerers"....meaning "Drug Addicts".

Again, this is false. A Sorcerer is a politician. They use words in order to "Cast a spell" on the people as means towards "gaining power". It has nothing to do with drug addicts. The problem addictions are the same in all types of addictions - excess behavior and actions done to meet the desire.

They are the only ones who damage their host.....Addicts in General. Anything destroying the temple, which is your body, is looking to push God out of heaven...it is rebellion... once you know and proceed..know that he will come against you...your very life.

Have you ever heard of Jim Fixx? I got news for you, healthy people die every day. All people die in the flesh. Your entire view is nothing but pure worship of the flesh.

Those responsible with the "small", will also be responsible with the "big"
in the end your Judgment is final. What God does is forever and cannot be changed.

I think god would probably laugh at this statement, considering "forever" is a construct of time.

I'm just going to stop right here. If you think the flesh/physical is "life" in any manner, then we are in disagreement on the most basic of principles.

What religion are you btw? Because I have never heard such a deep desire towards turning all that is holy into "procreation" and of the flesh.

reply to post by badmedia

I'm just going to stop right here. If you think the flesh/physical is "life" in any manner, then we are in disagreement on the most basic of principles.

Well at least we are in agreement on something

reply to post by pthena


Jesus is god in the same manner that all people are god. He is a conscious being. An observer, able to percieve reality, have understanding and so forth. These things are all functions that are the result of the father.

Take the very ability to make a true choice and free will. That which is of this world can NOT do that. It is what gives people who desire power in things like rockets and so forth. There is no choice for the rocket, it does only what it is made to do, no questions asked. It doesn't ask if it's about to blow up a school house or otherwise, it doesn't understand. It's nothing but action and reaction.

And if you look at the manipulation of society, you will see that great effort has gone into turning men into exactly that as well. This allows the "elite" to insert certain actions in order to get the reactions they want from the people. Meanwhile, the people themselves actually think and believe they are getting what they want, and in a way they are - they just don't realize they made that choice based on the manipulation.

But as the father is within people, then if they ever look beyond the manipulation and see the truth for themselves, then they unlike that rocket they can choose not to agree with it, and this would of course render those who used the manipulation powerless. For this reason, those who are able to see and understand the truth and use that to choose otherwise are hated. And if you start to wake too many people up etc, then you have in the past been killed, no different than Jesus was for doing so.

The kicker is when someone like Jesus does such a true thing and acts based on understanding rather than manipulation, then it by default opens the eyes of others. Ever seen the movie "Wall-E"? Where they are all going about their lives lalala and as "Wall-E" does things abnormal around them, they all start to "wake up" and see things they never saw before, right in front of their eyes. Same thing. Every time someone is treated as Jesus does, the people go nuts. And so with Jesus, they eventually just embraced it, and then used it to manipulate.

But people will eventually wake up, and then it's game over.

Anyway, Jesus acted purely from understanding and of knowledge of the divine and the true nature of reality, rather than acting based on the knowledge and understanding/way of men at the time. This is what makes difference Jesus, and if there is any truth towards referring to him as "god", then it is because of his actions and that he acted in the same manner as god would on earth. But this is supposed to be the way all act, not just Jesus, and when all people come to the understanding and such as Jesus, then they will.

But the father is within all people. Jesus just didn't deny the father as the rest do, and thus "did the will of the father", and in doing so "glorifies the father".

Supposed to be the norm, not the exception.

Yes the Bible was written by man, but it was done so through Divine Inspiration. Divine Inspiration is defined as these men receiving their words to be written by God speaking through them. In this sense, all words in the Bible are directly from God.

Most of the words are debatable, but I believe the actual words that came from Jesus' mouth are verbatim.. if anything you can trust these words out of the Bible.

At any rate, yes Jesus is God. Jesus was created as God's word, as a part of his own self sent to deliver the message to us. This is the reason Jesus existed in our world. The passages covered by OP strengthen the reason to believe this.

As for all of the atheists, agnostics, or disbelievers out there.. this book is written for us to strengthen our beliefs. You can prove to yourself that God exists in your own mind, but if you don't let Him in you will never know.

reply to post by badmedia
Yes, I agree he is the norm. In his time he was also speaking to those familiar with Moses and the Prophets so that they knew he was claiming for himself the same authority.

In our time we should look farther than that. Get out of the first century. It would be as wrong for us to make Jesus into an idol as it would have been wrong for the Jews to make Moses into an idol.

I was mostly pointing out with my post that Trinitarians speak of Jesus as part of trinity without factoring in Moses into the trinity which would be just as legitimate. There's no way to reconcile a Trinity doctrine, and it seems to me that the people who came up with it only wanted people to follow men, and be controlled.

I'm beginning to see great benefit in 'free will', a teaching also rejected by the elite 'controllers' of the masses.

Jesus is not God. He is the son of God. Two separate beings. If they were the same, Jesus didn't really die. Therefore our sins aren't paid for.

reply to post by pthena

There's no way to reconcile a Trinity doctrine, and it seems to me that the people who came up with it only wanted people to follow men, and be controlled.

There is no way NOT to reconcile a Trinity doctrine. These people who "supposedly" came up with it had the same conclusion I had 2000 years later without any knowledge of a trinity or Church doctrine to begin with. Just me and a Bible all by my self. How is that for reading comprehension.

reply to post by oliveoil

There is no way NOT to reconcile a Trinity doctrine. These people who "supposedly" came up with it had the same conclusion I had 2000 years later without any knowledge of a trinity or Church doctrine to begin with. Just me and a Bible all by my self. How is that for reading comprehension.

I used to defend the trinity doctrine because it was taught to me. I've read Augustine's two volume work, Calvin's Institutes, and various other works. I find no compelling reason to hold those positions. I don't hold any position of scriptural inerrancy, which seems to be the prerequisite for attempting to reconcile the one God with the 'many gods' of the Bible.

I offered Moses as one example of 'the many gods'. Where does Moses fit in the trinity, or the angel of YHWH in which YHWH put his name at the same time Moses was speaking as YHWH? Which puts in doubt the monotheistic statements of the post Jerusalem destruction prophets. The One God does seem to share his glory far and wide.





[edit on 10-1-2010 by pthena]

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by oliveoil

There is no way NOT to reconcile a Trinity doctrine. These people who "supposedly" came up with it had the same conclusion I had 2000 years later without any knowledge of a trinity or Church doctrine to begin with. Just me and a Bible all by my self. How is that for reading comprehension.

I used to defend the trinity doctrine because it was taught to me. I've read Augustine's two volume work, Calvin's Institutes, and various other works. I find no compelling reason to hold those positions. I don't hold any position of scriptural inerrancy, which seems to be the prerequisite for attempting to reconcile the one God with the 'many gods' of the Bible.

I offered Moses as one example of 'the many gods'. Where does Moses fit in the trinity, or the angel of YHWH in which YHWH put his name at the same time Moses was speaking as YHWH?

The OT makes it pretty clear that there is only one God, And Moses is not he.The "many gods" do not share the same attributes as the true God.However Jesus does. If you hold no position of scriptural inerrancy why are we having this conversation?

Originally posted by Myollinir
Yes the Bible was written by man, but it was done so through Divine Inspiration. Divine Inspiration is defined as these men receiving their words to be written by God speaking through them. In this sense, all words in the Bible are directly from God.

Most of the words are debatable, but I believe the actual words that came from Jesus' mouth are verbatim.. if anything you can trust these words out of the Bible.

At any rate, yes Jesus is God. Jesus was created as God's word, as a part of his own self sent to deliver the message to us. This is the reason Jesus existed in our world. The passages covered by OP strengthen the reason to believe this.

As for all of the atheists, agnostics, or disbelievers out there.. this book is written for us to strengthen our beliefs. You can prove to yourself that God exists in your own mind, but if you don't let Him in you will never know.

This is actually the most sensible thing I heard all day

Hello again Oliveoil

I dont understand what you are arguing against. I will leave your personal path to be figured out for yourself, which it should be.

But I will leave you with a quote from the book...it seems to be the only way to show you anything.

"For to be carnally minded is death: but to be spiritually minded is life and peace" (Romans 8,6).

The discernment between the two natures is for you to figure out. I only advise caution in placing the 'carnal mind' behaviors onto God.

My best always to you
LV

reply to post by Myollinir


It is not of spirit that anything had to die.

Be careful what you accept.

reply to post by oliveoil

The OT makes it pretty clear that there is only one God, And Moses is not he.The "many gods" do not share the same attributes as the true God.However Jesus does. If you hold no position of scriptural inerrancy why are we having this conversation?

I thought the topic was "Jesus AKA God". I didn't see where 'scriptural inerrancy' was a qualification for participation.

Jesus does share attributes of the One True God that the YHWH God of Exodus lacks; ie care for all people as opposed to care for one family (Israelite) and destruction for all others. If you make the claim that the Exodus YHWH is the one and only true God then you argue for my destruction, for don't you also claim that God does not change his mind(seems there's a verse to that effect)?

As far as I can tell Jesus is God's shepherd for any in the world who will have him, in the same way that Moses was YHWH's shepherd for the Israelites to get them out of Egypt.

The monotheistic god of the OT held out no hope at all to anyone outside of the covenant with Israel; as in 'you must join yourself to Israel.' But yet the first of 10 Commandments prevents Israelites from having a treaty with me.

Ex 34:12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

So I am excluded. I am destined for destruction. If, on the other hand, YHWH is less than 'the One true God' and Jesus has been given authority equal to or greater than YHWH by the One true God, referred to as 'Father', then he can take me as his own as a shepherd rounds up sheep, even though I am of a different flock. I do believe that Jesus has been given this authority by the Father, and so I have hope.

In the same way that the Jews were embarrassed when Gentiles claimed fellowship with God through Jesus 'outside of the Law' Christians now days may find themselves embarrassed by people of all religious backgrounds joining with God outside of Christianity.

[edit on 10-1-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by pthena

Jesus does share attributes of the One True God that the YHWH God of Exodus lacks; ie care for all people as opposed to care for one family (Israelite) and destruction for all others. If you make the claim that the Exodus YHWH is the one and only true God then you argue for my destruction, for don't you also claim that God does not change his mind(seems there's a verse to that effect)?

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ.
Jesus had the fullness of godhead. Now does that mean that YHWH could have had the state of being containing a portion of godhead? Could be, I think. He was given what was deemed necessary for the circumstances, which was to establish a nation of priests. Jesus fulfilled a wider mission to affect the entire planet and was the sign of the beginning of the apocalypse, which necessitated a wider range of attributes, that would take humanity from wretched sinfulness, to glorified persons in the heavenly abodes. Something that was not within the scope of activity of the Angel of Israel.

And yes, God has changed His mind several times that are recorded in the Bible. The most famous time was through the intervention of Moses, for God not to totally destroy the Israelites for worshipping the golden calf.


[edit on 10-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60
The first post I put on this thread compares Moses with Jesus, as both speaking the words of God, as if God Himself was speaking. It seems to me that the YHWH of Exodus is maybe the angel prince of Israel, as such he is the destroying angel to everyone else, not of Israel. But then even Moses spoke as YHWH defending the Israelites from destruction from the angel on more than one occasion. In that capacity Moses was a better YHWH than the angel YHWH.

In the same way, Jesus is a better Lord than is Moses, for the mission of Jesus includes every person and not only one tribe. Non-human angels do not have human empathy, destroy with no regrets whatsoever. Not some one I feel comfortable with.