Jesus AKA God

reply to post by oliveoil


So just to be clear, you believe all Unitarians are not Christians then?

Unitarians believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ as found in the New Testament and other Early Christian writings. Adhering to strict monotheism, they maintain that Jesus was a great man and a prophet of God, perhaps even a supernatural being, but not God himself. They believe Jesus did not claim to be God, nor did his teachings hint at the existence of a triune God. Unitarians believe in the moral authority, but not necessarily the divinity, of Jesus. Their theology is thus distinguishable from the trinitarian theology of most Christian denominations, which hold the idea of a triune God as a core belief.

reply to post by oliveoil

The Bible backs up the creed and its assertions
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;.
As for Arias, I guess God does work in mysterious ways

John 1:3 is talking about The Word, and does not say it is actually Jesus himself.
Colossians is what is called pseudepigraphy, meaning that someone else wrote it and made it look like a letter, in other words, a forgery. Paul does not make these claims about Jesus in any of his authentic letters. You are quoting a hymn that is inserted into the "letter" and that alone seems rather out of place in the writings of Paul. The purpose of the letter seems to be to put down a rival school of "disciples of Paul" and actually speaks against beliefs that are supported by the Bible.
Hebrews is a kind of homily and not by Paul, so it is of dubious authority as far as being approved by God as being true and reliable.
I think it is insensitive to make fun of the death of Arius. He was a well respected theologian and proponent of good understanding of Christianity, that is until the collusion between Athanasius and Constantine to make a controllable form of "Christianity". Arius did not believe that Jesus was on a level with created angels. He believed that The Son was begotten, which no other being can claim for themselves, so he was considered "orthodox" before the new terminology was invented to explain how Jesus and the Father are "the same". Apparently you are a "orthodox" Catholic and would probably welcome the restoration of the old church practice of burning heretics.


[edit on 9-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

So just to be clear, you believe all Unitarians are not Christians then?

Look, Call them what you want,The bottom line is that you don't need an Organization to make this claim. If you follow Christ and adhere to his teachings you are a Christian. However, I personally believe that these so called liberal Christian Organizations( JW, Mormons,ect) weather they adhere to the teachings of Christ or not, misconstrued and contort the Bible as a whole, thus rendering the meaning of the word Christian meaningless. So yes, you can say that Unitarians fall in to this category.

[edit on 9-1-2010 by oliveoil]

reply to post by jmdewey60

John 1:3 is talking about The Word, and does not say it is actually Jesus himself.

Your not reading this whole chapter clearly.Any reasonable person can make a conclusion that it is referring to Jesus.

reply to post by oliveoil

Your not reading this whole chapter clearly.Any reasonable person can make a conclusion that it is referring to Jesus.

You keep making this claim, that if a person just had a brain, or something, they can figure out that you are right.
How about taking us through your logic, you know, for those of us without brains.

reply to post by oliveoil


Jesus was a man who walked the earth in the flesh. Jesus is not, and never was, a GOD. If anything, Jesus was a conduit to which the forces of nature could readily move through. Jesus even stated himself that the only God was the father and regularly refused worship. Your bible also states and warns to never worship a man. As long as someone is in the flesh and blood form, you might as well skip calling them a God.

This has been done over and over again on ATS and its getting boring.

By the way...Chris Angel walked on water as well. Is he GOD???

Since the beginning of time, man has tried to make 'God'=a 'man'.

Since the beginning of time, mans carnal ways have limited the image of God and Thee's perfect holiness.

For so long man knew that it seemed wrong to make a idol, sense God was unfathomable and divine....but yet man always seems to fail himself, making a idol of God. God is the unseen...not the 'seen'. God is spirit...not the flesh.

All of this is just a marker for where man is with their understandings of spirit and flesh. Man still has a long way to go, the end is no where in sight.

Jesus did speak spiritual truths, but Jesus was tied to a belief that he didnt teach of nor supported...blinding many to fail and worship a human. Not only worshiping a human...but also accepting that humans blood for their own salvation.

Its carnal as carnal can get. This is not spiritual wisdom.

Follow in the works of Jesus, understand why the works were of 'good' seed.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by oliveoil

 

Your not reading this whole chapter clearly.Any reasonable person can make a conclusion that it is referring to Jesus.

You keep making this claim, that if a person just had a brain, or something, they can figure out that you are right.
How about taking us through your logic, you know, for those of us without brains.

No. I said reasonable. Here is the logic in black and white.

If the WORD became FLESH and dwelt among us,What do you suppose this meant? (JOHN 1:14)

Then in JOHN 1:15 John testifies concerning him,(the WORD who became flesh and dwelt among us) saying,
"This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."

Then the next day when JESUS came towards him(John 1:29) he said, "This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."( John 1:30)

What part do you not get? Jesus is obviously the word, who is GOD.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
reply to post by oliveoil

 

Jesus was a man who walked the earth in the flesh. Jesus is not, and never was, a GOD. If anything, Jesus was a conduit to which the forces of nature could readily move through. Jesus even stated himself that the only God was the father and regularly refused worship. Your bible also states and warns to never worship a man. As long as someone is in the flesh and blood form, you might as well skip calling them a God.

This has been done over and over again on ATS and its getting boring.

By the way...Chris Angel walked on water as well. Is he GOD???

Oh okay thanks for the heads up. Ill be sure to spread the good news.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

Since the beginning of time, man has tried to make 'God'=a 'man'.

Since the beginning of time, mans carnal ways have limited the image of God and Thee's perfect holiness.

For so long man knew that it seemed wrong to make a idol, sense God was unfathomable and divine....but yet man always seems to fail himself, making a idol of God. God is the unseen...not the 'seen'. God is spirit...not the flesh.

All of this is just a marker for where man is with their understandings of spirit and flesh. Man still has a long way to go, the end is no where in sight.

Jesus did speak spiritual truths, but Jesus was tied to a belief that he didnt teach of nor supported...blinding many to fail and worship a human. Not only worshiping a human...but also accepting that humans blood for their own salvation.

Its carnal as carnal can get. This is not spiritual wisdom.

Follow in the works of Jesus, understand why the works were of 'good' seed.

You keep going off on this CARNAL tangent and ones understanding of spirit and flesh. Tell me something, Where do you think we as human flesh get our carnal nature from, the spiritual world or the physical world?

reply to post by oliveoil


Carnal natures are not a result of spiritual things. Spiritual things are to be discerned from what is of flesh.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by oliveoil

 

Carnal natures are not a result of spiritual things. Spiritual things are to be discerned from what is of flesh.

Your wrong. Your flesh cannot do things on its own.Your spirit controls your flesh. Now, weather your spirit produces good thought or bad thought it has nothing to do with the flesh, unless you use your flesh to do bad( make a bomb and blow people up)Or good (to help someone from drowning).

So you see, Carnal nature is only perceived as to what your spirit perceives it to be.Another words their is no carnal knowledge of sorts only spiritual good and evil that thought produces.







[edit on 9-1-2010 by oliveoil]

Originally posted by oliveoil

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by oliveoil

 

Carnal natures are not a result of spiritual things. Spiritual things are to be discerned from what is of flesh.

Your wrong. Your flesh cannot do things on its own.Your spirit controls your flesh. Now, weather your spirit produces good thought or bad thought it has nothing to do with the flesh, unless you use your flesh to do bad( make a bomb and blow people up)Or good (to help someone from drowning).

So you see, Carnal nature is only perceived as to what your spirit perceives it to be.Another words their is no carnal knowledge of sorts only spiritual good and evil that thought produces.


[edit on 9-1-2010 by oliveoil]

If the spirit controlled the flesh...people would not act in such carnal ways. Just because we all have the spirit of life within us does not mean we can discern between the voice of spirit or the voice of our carnal mind. The nature of our thoughts has everything to do with what nature we are in tune to. If a person is in more tune to their flesh self, they are going to be more greedy, prideful, and selfish. They will live more for the self then for the all. Someone who makes a bomb does have everything to do with with that man being led by his carnal ways. It may be that society influenced him to think this way, it may be that his family raised him in such a way to think things like that are ok..but bottom line is...things of spirit do not think in such ways.

There is a cause and effect of spirit being within matter. It is a process that God knows will sift out in time.

What you dont see...is that it doesnt take work to know or be of carnal nature. The part that takes work is acting in the nature of the spirit, overcoming the temptation of the body and the world. It is not obvious to all people that there is a 'higher mind' or a more 'pure thought process' or a more 'pure way to live' period.

This is where it involves what we understand to be the nature of God. Such as the belief that God needs this and that of Earth...needs man to kill...needs man to build and fight over a Earthly temple...until we are discerning what is of man is of man and what is of spirit is of spirit...we dont understand the difference and blend the two together as our own shortcoming.

The spirit is not the part that produces good thought or bad thought. The spirit only produces good. The bad is produced because that thought is lacking the spiritual understanding and ways.

[edit on 9-1-2010 by LeoVirgo]

If the spirit controlled the flesh...we all wouldnt act so differently. We all wouldnt have a 'choice' in how we act or what we think. We would all act in a prime way and think in a prime thought. Just because we are alive, due to the spirit and breath of life...doesnt mean we have to acknowledge this, we can act in ways and think in ways that lack of spiritual wisdom.

[edit on 9-1-2010 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by LeoVirgo

Jesus did speak spiritual truths, but Jesus was tied to a belief that he didnt teach of nor supported...blinding many to fail and worship a human. Not only worshiping a human...but also accepting that humans blood for their own salvation.

Do you mean that Jesus is tied to Christianity?
I would agree that Jesus is more or less chained to this thing called Christianity, and that He probably would not be considered a "Christian" if he was around today.
People are human and what started out as one thing took on a life of its own, with people vying for authority to put down anyone who does not agree with their particular view, until it becomes what Jesus came to put and end to, which was man-made religion.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I don't see how you could blame Jesus for that, since it is exactly that which he warns about.

That is one of the bigger "mysteries" to me. It's the fact that Jesus warns 100% about the coming church that will follow him and so forth, and that the majority of people will be decieved - and it still happens anyway.

reply to post by badmedia

The first death is the death of the flesh. The second death is the deal of the spirit/soul.

The First Death

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

The First Death is Death to yourself. All that is required is that you make yourself "Healthy". This is literally what the word "HOLY" means...Sanctified.

Wash the inside of the cup by stopping those things you are damaging yourself with. Understand that the Spirit is a swift witness against "Sorcerers"....meaning "Drug Addicts". They are the only ones who damage their host.....Addicts in General. Anything destroying the temple, which is your body, is looking to push God out of heaven...it is rebellion... once you know and proceed..know that he will come against you...your very life.

Those responsible with the "small", will also be responsible with the "big"
in the end your Judgment is final. What God does is forever and cannot be changed.

It is the father who in the end experiences all things.

He's got the whole world in his hands...That is truth. I really hate saying HE, cause we know.

The tree of life is all living things. The reason why mankind is sent to the earth in genesis is because they no longer keep "the way of the tree of life". As such, they are not allowed to eat from it(eternal life).

Jesus shows the "way of the tree of life" to people by keeping the commandments so they can also follow the way, which is what will lead to being back into the garden and "eat from the tree of life".

The only way back is to follow the way of the tree of life, which is to keep the commandments and Jesus shows how they do that.

You are quarantined here to protect all the other life in the universe. That is what Genesis says anyway. It seems logical and makes sense to me.

The tree of life is just what it says....Tree of LIFE. Do you understand that in Hebrew context...Genesis is not done? We aren't to the end of "Adam" man kinds story yet. It is then you read.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Understand the stories are all still running for they are all the same story, one inside of another...."Scrolled". Look here on the seventh day God did something. Know what it is? He "Noahed"....He "Rested"

Understand Eden means "time of pleasure".....and in Hebrew context is still current, not in the past, but now....you are the Garden. The garden is describing the Human body....the main arteries, the heart where the four rivers come to a head....it is always about the human body...because it is the true temple and we are always the shadow of what's to come. A child is in your shadow....don't keep him under a basket.

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Cain (those offering the fruit of the ground...the same ground we are made of dust and Able (those offering the first of the "flock") give their offering at "the end of days".

Cain brings forward dust...vanity...no "fruit" of the spirit, just his death therefor the death of all in his house....his temple, TRULY destroying his blood line.

Able brings forth the "first of the flock", pleasing the Lord TRULY because God wants you to be fruitful and multiply remembering "the kingdom belongs to children....who are neither given or taken in marriage, but are as the angels IN heaven

reply to post by LeoVirgo


LOL okay Let me put it another way,Everything that consists of matter takes up space. Ones body (flesh) would fall into this category.Everything that does not consist of matter does not take up space. Ones spirit/soul would fall into this category. What category do you think your thoughts GOOD and BAD would fall under. Ill give you a clue: your thoughts do not consist of matter.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

Jesus did speak spiritual truths, but Jesus was tied to a belief that he didnt teach of nor supported...blinding many to fail and worship a human. Not only worshiping a human...but also accepting that humans blood for their own salvation.

Do you mean that Jesus is tied to Christianity?
I would agree that Jesus is more or less chained to this thing called Christianity, and that He probably would not be considered a "Christian" if he was around today.
People are human and what started out as one thing took on a life of its own, with people vying for authority to put down anyone who does not agree with their particular view, until it becomes what Jesus came to put and end to, which was man-made religion.

I was actually referring more to the religion of the OT...the belief that God requires a sacrifice (man to kill life), a chosen people, and the belief that God is wanting a Earthly Temple. But like you said, I dont think Jesus would link himself to any religion. I see Jesus more as a philosopher of spiritual things...not wanting a label.

I agree religion is man made, and limits humans greatly for seeking the whole picture and possibilities.

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

LOL okay Let me put it another way,Everything that consists of matter takes up space. Ones body (flesh) would fall into this category.Everything that does not consist of matter does not take up space. Ones spirit/soul would fall into this category. What category do you think your thoughts GOOD and BAD would fall under. Ill give you a clue: your thoughts do not consist of matter.

We see ourselves as individuals here. This experience in itself creates a false sense of who and what we are. Humans go through many different experiences...each experience, the human will have a reaction to...this reaction creates feelings in a person. To really talk of such things, we would have to brake down the psychology of the way our brains work and the way each person can respond to events differently.

Our spiritual mind does not have 'matter'...you are right. But that does not mean that a person is always using the spiritual self within them to decide what actions they should use or what thoughts they should think. Even though our thoughts do not consist of matter, the majority of ones life, thoughts are generated depending on how the body and physical mind are reacting together.

Lets say a child is abused alot while young. Their thought process is very much going ot be linked to their physical brain, their physical body, and their physical nervous system. They will build feelings that are linked to the abuser, the environment of the abuse, they way their physical body feels from the abuse, the way their nervous system kicks in when they feel that abuse could be on the horizon. Our thoughts are very connected with our physical being.

A persons nature is not something they are just born with. The environment, the events in their life, the people in their life, their nurturing they receive, and their society and culture all helps that person build a 'nature'. All of these things are very physical influences to a very physical body that has very real ways of processing the feelings and thoughts from its surroundings and experiences.

A spiritual sense comes from within a person. The pureness of life is within all souls. That doesnt mean it is going to be obvious to all souls that this even exists....for it is 'unseen'. When a person starts to seek 'God' there is a general 'feeling' within that person of a 'higher self' or a 'more prime thought'. This doesnt mean still that it is THEE HIGHEST THOUGHT OR SELF>

Lets say someone come to me today and offered me a great amount of cash if I would just stand up in court for them and claim they were a good person/parent. Lets say the amount of cash was money that would easily take me out of debt and allow me to do good things for my children. Well....I have 2 different voices having a conversation in my ONE mind. One voice, is going to give me my feelings of how goood it would feel to not be in debt and how great it would be to do good things for my kids. If one does not have a spiritual voice allowed to speak within them...the thought process will likely stop there. But a spiritual voice is going to remind the 'self' of doing right, because it is simple, right. Not because there is Earthly things to gain. The spiritual self does not live for Earthly things at all! It lives for love and the good for all souls. It is pure. Does this mean I will listen to the more 'prime thought'? No it does not...I still have a choice. Is that spiritual voice within my physical mind? I would say it is not...I would say it is in the very life of me, but yet I have made room for it to have its voice and I over time, have learned to respect it, for it never sways in its consistency, it never sways from its nature. Since my nature is not 'pure spirit' and I am experiencing this life of 'human'....it is up to me to what nature I am going to live for. I dont even need to know God to follow the more prime nature....for some people fall in love with the feeling of what it feels like to 'do right' and behave in a nature that is more for other selves then for the self. For some, they simple fall in love with the spiritual way because of its pureness...not even knowing, it is of spirit.

But all of this doesnt need to get so complicated. Every action of a human has a reason behind it. God knows that reason and knows if the person is acting in ways of self gain or Earthly gains.

Back to the nature of God...which is really the point here. God does not act in ways humans do.

The spirit is unblemished, and if a human is in tune with this more 'pure self' that is 'unseen' a human will become the nature of that spirit. If a human is not able to determine between the two natures...there will be confusion over what thoughts and ways are more pure and what is not.

This is not the life we are to live for...but yet, how many humans do you see worrying about a Temple here for this life?

It takes alot of time and many many experiences for us humans to be able to have enough knowledge to determine what is of spirit and what is not.

We are to sacrifice our Earthly desires, our Earthly ways...we are to work on becoming a soul living for the life of spirit.

We are sifting out what we are and what we are not. To some, its obvious we are humans. To others, its obvious we are not.

Eventually, the spiritual self will see...this is not the 'real' life to live for. The ideas that we place on the image of God need to be of spirit, not of Earthly ways that humans have adapted to. God doesnt need to act in anger, jealousy, greed, or pride. These are human actions...not spiritual actions. Everything is meant to be the way it is, this experience here is the perfect tool for discernment of learning between two different natures.

[edit on 9-1-2010 by LeoVirgo]

[edit on 9-1-2010 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Still, and all your "stored thoughts" so to speak, are not physical. they do not consist of matter. There is only matter and anti matter. Your thoughts and your stored thoughts and your spirit which is a soul which animates the flesh does not contain matter. there is no way around this.



[edit on 9-1-2010 by oliveoil]