Please stop using fearmongery to influence the joining of religeous cults

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by badmedia

 

Refute #1

How can anyone have a debate with someone on the topic of the Bible if that person refuses to except the Bible as A whole? And the only reason that person gives as to why he does not except certain books are because Paul was a politician, and a contradiction of the word father, And hatred of organized religion.

The bible is a collection of separate books. The bible is not just "1 book". The word bible itself means "collection of books". Some books in that collection I find belong, and some books in the collection I find do not belong.

That which I do accept/quote in the bible I already knew before I read the bible in terms of understanding. If it was simply a matter of thinking Bible = Christianity or nothing, I'd without thought choose nothing. Because Christianity/Religion is not what I see in the books or understanding I have.

When it comes to Christianity in itself, then I am in agreement with those who are against it. But I draw the line when they start judging Jesus and the things he said based on the actions and beliefs of Christians. They are 2 different things. If I were to base my judgment of Jesus based on you and the Christian church, then I would reject it. But I am smart enough to see that they are 2 different things, and that you are not a reflection of Jesus at all. The smartest thing I ever did in my life was to remove the church, religion and the image other men had given me from god.

If a man was able to make the decision to put those books together in a collection, then I have exactly the same right to say that these books do not belong. Especially when I can show and prove the reason why they do not belong.

I am more than willing to show the contradictions and reasons why I do not agree. I do this all the time, but they are ignored and all I get in return is insults. Paul does specific things that Jesus directly says do not do, and Jesus even goes so far as to warn against people who will do such. He warns of that which will come after him, and Paul is that which comes after him. The only reason why the words of Paul are attached and given the same weight as the words of Jesus is because men decided years ago to put them together as such, and then proceeded to kill anyone who did not go along with that attachment. Again, all this is warned of.

Besides, shouldn't it be easy for you to find where Jesus said or did it if it is true? And shouldn't it in the very least be things which are in agreement with Jesus? Is asking for you to show me where Jesus backs it up(and in context) that much to ask for?

I'm open minded, if you can show me how the understanding I have of Paul is wrong, or how the understanding of Paul means something other than what it appear as, then I'm all ears. Yet in the 2 years or so I have asked for this, not a single person has done so.

Paul does have a purpose and place etc. However, the problem with it is that it's on the same level and purpose as evil.







[edit on 1/9/2010 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia

The bible is a collection of separate books. The bible is not just "1 book". The word bible itself means "collection of books". Some books in that collection I find belong, and some books in the collection I find do not belong.

Yes, I understand that the Bible is a collection of books However, all these books are intertwined and by removing any of these books you are not getting the full story of what was intended to be told, weather you agree or not. If you beleive that the Holy Spirit can devinely inspire ( which I think you do) Than why cant you believe these men who wrote these books, and the men "who choose"these books to be in this one book we call the Bible devinely inspired?

That which I do accept/quote in the bible I already knew before I read the bible in terms of understanding. If it was simply a matter of thinking Bible = Christianity or nothing, I'd without thought choose nothing. Because Christianity/Religion is not what I see in the books or understanding I have.

Yes, you have understanding. But like everone else your understanding is finite. If you think you know all there is to know you are mistaking.

When it comes to Christianity in itself, then I am in agreement with those who are against it. But I draw the line when they start judging Jesus and the things he said based on the actions and beliefs of Christians. They are 2 different things. If I were to base my judgment of Jesus based on you and the Christian church, then I would reject it. But I am smart enough to see that they are 2 different things, and that you are not a reflection of Jesus at all. The smartest thing I ever did in my life was to remove the church, religion and the image other men had given me from god.

Dont you think you are catorgorizing all Christians as being wrong? I think you had some bad issues with a so called Christian sect, and now you fit all into how these people were. Thats just wrong

If a man was able to make the decision to put those books together in a collection, then I have exactly the same right to say that these books do not belong. Especially when I can show and prove the reason why they do not belong.

Again the same way you say that the father has showed you, the father has showed them. This is your right to do this however, like I said you are finite.Maybe these men had more knowlege than you that you just havent figued out yet.

I am more than willing to show the contradictions and reasons why I do not agree. I do this all the time, but they are ignored and all I get in return is insults. Paul does specific things that Jesus directly says do not do, and Jesus even goes so far as to warn against people who will do such. He warns of that which will come after him, and Paul is that which comes after him. The only reason why the words of Paul are attached and given the same weight as the words of Jesus is because men decided years ago to put them together as such, and then proceeded to kill anyone who did not go along with that attachment. Again, all this is warned of.

don't you think that you are not the first to spot these "contradictions". do you really think that people are that dumb as to follow something that makes no sense. I was the same way. If you are diligent in your research and not bias in your belief you would find that these contradictions are irrelevant and untrue.

Besides, shouldn't it be easy for you to find where Jesus said or did it if it is true? And shouldn't it in the very least be things which are in agreement with Jesus? Is asking for you to show me where Jesus backs it up(and in context) that much to ask for?

Jesus himself seems to contradict himself in many ways. Like I said before you have to be diligent and un bias and research positively.

I'm open minded, if you can show me how the understanding I have of Paul is wrong, or how the understanding of Paul means something other than what it appear as, then I'm all ears. Yet in the 2 years or so I have asked for this, not a single person has done so.

Look, your gonna believe what you want. But ask yourself this, Am I really being diligent and un bias and am I taking into consideration the Bible as a whole. Their are many ways to view the bible, but are you viewing it the way it should be viewed? I think you are not.

Paul does have a purpose and place etc. However, the problem with it is that it's on the same level and purpose as evil.

You can say that about any one in the Bible. You are being bias.

Originally posted by oliveoil
Yes, I understand that the Bible is a collection of books However, all these books are intertwined and by removing any of these books you are not getting the full story of what was intended to be told, weather you agree or not. If you beleive that the Holy Spirit can devinely inspire ( which I think you do) Than why cant you believe these men who wrote these books, and the men "who choose"these books to be in this one book we call the Bible devinely inspired?

I don't "choose", it's a matter of what is in line with the understanding of the father, and the way of the tree of life and what is not. Jesus is in line with that understanding, Paul is not.

Jesus is the example of what to do, Paul is the example of what not to do. I didn't "choose" for it to be that way. It just happens to be that way.

You don't believe I know the father, so you do not realize that what you are asking me to do is to reject the father and the understanding he has given me in exchange for the acceptance of men. The only thing you can do is show me how Paul is actually in line with the understanding of the father, and how I am reading it wrong. But again, that has yet to happen.

Yes, you have understanding. But like everone else your understanding is finite. If you think you know all there is to know you are mistaking.

I am given what I need when I need it. I was shown what I was shown for a reason. It is not a coincidence that I am the way I am.

Dont you think you are catorgorizing all Christians as being wrong? I think you had some bad issues with a so called Christian sect, and now you fit all into how these people were. Thats just wrong

No, I am not categorizing all Christians in any way. I am talking about specific issues and things which are wrong. If the issue itself is not something that person has, then I am not talking about them.

In fact, it was actually Christians who showed me Jesus in response to the things I was saying. Because at the time I didn't know Jesus had said these things, so I was just speaking about god and such in general. And then they understood what I was saying and trying to say/explain and they showed me the verses.

Obviously those people had to have the understanding itself to recognize what I was talking about and show me.

And then other Christians came along and stomped it with Paul.

Again the same way you say that the father has showed you, the father has showed them. This is your right to do this however, like I said you are finite.Maybe these men had more knowlege than you that you just havent figued out yet.

I know them by their actions/fruits. If their actions and fruits were in line with "the way", then I would not have anything bad to say about it. It is the fact that they are not in line with "the way", and lead men away from it that I draw such an issue with it.

I can read something by Buddha and not have much issue. I can read something by any number of people and not have issue with it. Why not? Because in the end they will be speaking of the way, or in the very least not be teaching people away from it.

don't you think that you are not the first to spot these "contradictions". do you really think that people are that dumb as to follow something that makes no sense. I was the same way. If you are diligent in your research and not bias in your belief you would find that these contradictions are irrelevant and untrue.

Yes, I think people are incredibly dumb. Bless them father for they know not what they do. The saving grace for these people is they are poor in spirit. They do not know any better, and they are manipulated in their ignorance.

I'm sure many people have brought up such things in the past. But most of the time they were killed as heretics for going against the dogma of the church. That is what the definition of heretic is, someone who goes against the dogma.

And yet, Jesus himself was killed for being a heretic. And says that those who truly follow and such will also be killed - no doubt as heretics.

As this topic says in the start, all these religion as you know it was brought about through fear, death and destruction. Read Matthew 7 if you want a preview of what the Church can expect to hear.

Jesus himself seems to contradict himself in many ways. Like I said before you have to be diligent and un bias and research positively.

Show me an example please. Also, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Look, your gonna believe what you want. But ask yourself this, Am I really being diligent and un bias and am I taking into consideration the Bible as a whole. Their are many ways to view the bible, but are you viewing it the way it should be viewed? I think you are not.

You aren't taking into consideration, you are telling me I MUST accept all of it or nothing. If giving the chance, I wouldn't remove Paul from the bible. If people don't have the understanding needed to tell the difference between the way of Paul and the way of Jesus, then there is no chance they will ever see it in the world.

You can say that about any one in the Bible. You are being bias.

Well, aside from the fact that you would be hurting your own case in terms of the bible being divinely inspired, it's not actually true.

reply to post by badmedia


Oh brother, See this is what Im talking about. Looks like your mind is already predetermined to think the way you do. God never reveals everything at once. This should be a clue to you as there is more to learn. However, you will most likely not heed this clue.

reply to post by oliveoil


I'm sorry, but what part of "given when needed", did you interpret as "given all at once"?

Maybe you should be more specific, and list exactly who you label a cult. for your information, not all religions are cults, and it shows a lack of understanding of the word to label religious groups as such, simply because they hold certain views on the end of the world.

Now, as a Christian, I would share what I believe out of concern, and not to foster fear. In fact, I do not fear, as I have received that perfect love that casts out all fear.

Do I think the world will change? You bet. Do I believe some people will be lost? Oh, yeah. Is that the only reason someone should listen? Not even close.

The best reason is that we were given a wonderful gift, a life in place of our own, which we do not deserve at all, by God Himself. To reject this gift is to insult God. That is the best reason.

Now, that doesn't mean no one should be concerned with what happens after they die. That is important. Yet accepting Jesus doesn't require any ties to any local church, so it isn't about control or money. It's about a relationship.

Originally posted by C1OUD

im sorry to say that i have the most profound disrespect for those people who are using fear of doom as a primary source to convert to their religeous following, jesus would be most displeased by you

Haven't read the whole thread, but I waned to reply to the OP.

I agree that fearmongering is not the best way to convince people of the truth. The Bible itself says that the world will know we are disciples of Jesus by our love. Not our continual warning of the judgment to come. But I should also point out, Jesus himself spoke more about the end times, judgment, and Hell then any other person recorded in the Bible. A warning is not necessarily a scare tactic.

Perhaps one of the most terrible things to happen as a result of previous "Hellfire and Brimstone" mentalities is that it has turned people completely away from the reality of it and painted God in a way that is blurred and skewed.

As far as not practicing any religion, in part due to the division among those that even claim to practice the same faith, I would suggest reading the Bible yourself and surrounding yourself with people who are actually knowledgeable about it. You are right that many Christians are divided, and regretfully it happens many times over things that have nothing to do with the true faith.