Only one percent of the Holocaust claims can be proven - Says Holocaust Scholar and Expert

Originally posted by MrDesolate

Originally posted by ProWrestler_Joe
In the world, one can question government, leadership, and God, but dare not question Zionism.

Seriously? I don't think you have to do a whole lot of digging to find not only questioning, but some serious criticism. And some of that criticism will be from Israelis, and Jews in general.

Criticize almost anything, Christianity, atheism, Islam, conservatives, liberals, Australians, the Chicago Bears... there'll be pushback. So if your point is, it's not possible to question or criticize anything and have everyone agree, then yes I agree with that.

There are honest questions. There are questions with no intent to find an answer, but to push an agenda (push-polling, as it were). There's honest criticism meant to stimulate a discussion and seek the truth. And whenever and wherever a discussion occurs, there'll be someone on the other side of it.

So if you're looking to question or criticize anything, especially where there's a significant emotional attachment, then yes you'll get pushback. Anyone afraid of the pushback, I guess, shouldn't "dare" to question.

Michael Scheuer, 22-year veteran ex-CIA, Chief of the Bin Laden Issue Station 1996-1999:

Scheuer: "Why don't we talk about that? Because AIPAC and other influential American Jewish groups are extraordinarily involved in the funding of American political campaigns and have the ability to reach out and make sure that people lose their jobs, or are otherwise hurt, if they dare to criticize Israel."

Scheuer went on to claim that he lost a job with the Jamestown Foundation think tank for saying that then-presidential candidate Barack Obama was "doing what I call the Tel-Aviv Two Step". As a result, he claimed, "the donors to that foundation" ordered that he be terminated. He concluded the discussion of Jewish political influence by saying, "You know, you always talk about the Israel Lobby and its power, but to see it up close and personal aimed right at me was very educational. In fact, it was worth the experience of losing a job."

Honest criticism of Christianity, atheism, Islam, conservatives, liberals, Australians, or the Chicago Bears won't cost anyone a prestigious position. You underestimate the largest criminal syndicate in the history of mankind that is Zionism. To question it is punishable by demotion, termination of job, or death. You and I can criticize Zionism on a civil level at risk of being dubbed anti-semites, but as high-status, political figures we would risk demotion, termination of job, or death, and of that you can be certain. This is no small-time-crook criminal syndicate. What we're up against is a power so organized that an average person can simply not fathom. They are behind all disorder in the world as master orchestrators.

My point is simply that if Obama were to speak to the American public today and say, "My fellow Americans, I want to bring up a very important topic not often discussed, in fact, never discussed openly between government and the American people. And that is, foreign policy and Israel. We as a nation can no longer stand in support for Israel as it is counterproductive and hurting the United States as a nation." He would be dealt with.

No American president questions the destructive foreign policy of being in unconditional support for Israel. They are not allowed.

Political figures are very careful about this. Even honest politicans such as Ron Paul will bring up the destructive foreign policy being fully aware that our unconditional support for Israel is dangerous; however, he will never mention Israel because it would destroy his political career.

So as I said, in the world, you can question government, leadership, and God, but dare not question Zionism.

Make note that when I say Zionism, I don't mean the Jewish majority. Zionism consists of men of no religion. They care not for the Jews as if they did, they would not cloak themselves behind Judaism.

I believe that in time the ATS forum will be wholly aware of what Zionism is trying to achieve. But I'm afraid that when the time comes, one of two things may happen to ATS:

#1 It will be shut down for unfounded claims of anti-semitism.

or

#2 It will be dubbed and publicly considered a 'hate' site thus drastically minimizing traffic.




[edit on 13-1-2010 by ProWrestler_Joe]

ARTICLE

I was going to post it in another thread - but ProWrestler_Joe beat me to it.

[edit on 13-1-2010 by SneakyB]

reply to post by SneakyB
Post it as breaking news alternative. This is a nice article.

2nd line.

[edit on 13-1-2010 by Sharrow]

Yes, definitely post it as a new thread in Breaking Alternative News. Most Americans are oblivious. Sneaky, definitely post it as a new thread.

reply to post by ProWrestler_Joe


All right, let's take this step even though it's off topic to this particular thread (which I'll address further below).

You, rightly or wrongly, believe that there is an all-powerful Zionist plot/agenda/whatever that reaches far enough and deep enough to intimidate anyone and everyone to the highest levels of power up to and including the President of the United States.

Anyone disagreeing with that stance will immediately be labeled as a co-conspirator or clueless sheep or intimidated cowering whelp. Ergo, the people disagreeing with the Zionist conspiracy angle will immediately have their perspective rejected out of hand and accused of all manner of things. Can you not see how this is the exact same thing you're accusing this presumed all-powerful "Zionist" group of doing? Sure, there are Zionists with an agenda, but in my opinion they aren't any more powerful, and in my opinion not nearly as powerful, as the global corporations. Of course, if you believe the Zionists are behind every global corporation then we're back in a big circle.

As to this thread specifically, it takes a statement out of context ("Only one per cent of the holocaust claims can be proven") and uses it to draw a most unsavory, in my opinion, conclusion.

We've unfortunately gone off on a tangent from holocaust denial to Zionist conspiracy.

There are those who believe the Holocaust was a Zionist conspiracy. There are those who believe the Holocaust never happened or has been grotesquely overstated. There are those who believe Hitler was "misunderstood". My big mistake is even getting involved in conversations like that.

Anybody that far gone is beyond reason. If those are their conclusions, there isn't much help I can be.

Originally posted by MrDesolate
reply to post by ProWrestler_Joe

 

All right, let's take this step even though it's off topic to this particular thread (which I'll address further below).

You, rightly or wrongly, believe that there is an all-powerful Zionist plot/agenda/whatever that reaches far enough and deep enough to intimidate anyone and everyone to the highest levels of power up to and including the President of the United States.

Anyone disagreeing with that stance will immediately be labeled as a co-conspirator or clueless sheep or intimidated cowering whelp. Ergo, the people disagreeing with the Zionist conspiracy angle will immediately have their perspective rejected out of hand and accused of all manner of things. Can you not see how this is the exact same thing you're accusing this presumed all-powerful "Zionist" group of doing? Sure, there are Zionists with an agenda, but in my opinion they aren't any more powerful, and in my opinion not nearly as powerful, as the global corporations. Of course, if you believe the Zionists are behind every global corporation then we're back in a big circle.

As to this thread specifically, it takes a statement out of context ("Only one per cent of the holocaust claims can be proven") and uses it to draw a most unsavory, in my opinion, conclusion.

We've unfortunately gone off on a tangent from holocaust denial to Zionist conspiracy.

There are those who believe the Holocaust was a Zionist conspiracy. There are those who believe the Holocaust never happened or has been grotesquely overstated. There are those who believe Hitler was "misunderstood". My big mistake is even getting involved in conversations like that.

Anybody that far gone is beyond reason. If those are their conclusions, there isn't much help I can be.

I understand your point. It would be inaccurate to say that Zionism is behind all global corporations, but it would be accurate and factual to say that the are behind and have a stranglehold on the most powerful nation(s) on earth. Definitely look into Zionism in America, historically documented Zionism in Germany, and Russia. This is not your typical conspiracy theory with baseless, unfounded ideas in the context of, "Well brother if you don't believe me, you're a sheep!" This is popular knowledge, documented, written, and publicly spoken about. The world stares at us in disbelief that most Americans don't know who runs their own nation. Jimmy Carter, Richard Nixon, Michael Scheuer the ex-CIA fellow, Hugo Chavez, Vladimir Putin, and the list goes on, have all publicly acknowledged the organized power that is Zionism. And when you actually start to read about it, and their accomplishments, it is truly mindblowing, most of all because it is fact and not theory.

Oh and you're right lol I have gotten off topic, but the whole thread flirts with Zionism.







[edit on 13-1-2010 by ProWrestler_Joe]

[edit on 14-1-2010 by ProWrestler_Joe]

Few pages earlier there was talk about where did 6 million figure came from. Someone said it was pre WWII. I just came upon 2 news articles which may be of interest


Full Image available here:

Above article was published in the October 31, 1919 edition of The American Hebrew

=================================================


and this in 1921, the New York Times which claimed that "6,000,000" jews in Russia were "facing extermination by massacre."
Source:query.nytimes.com...

[edit on 13-1-2010 by December_Rain]

Also found a reference of massacre in Talmud

Betar was the last standing Jewish fortress in the Bar Kochba revolt of the 2nd century AD, destroyed by the Roman army on Tisha B'av.

The site of historic Betar (also spelled Beitar or Bethar), next to the modern Palestinian village of Battir southwest of Jerusalem, was known as Khirbet al-Yahudi, Arabic for "the Jew's ruins".

The destruction of Betar put an end to the last great revolt against Rome, and effectively quashed any Jewish dreams of freedom. Accounts of the event in Talmudic and Midrashic writings thus reflect and amplify its importance in the Jewish psyche and oral tradition in the subsequent period.

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

The best known is from the Babylonian Talmud, Gittin 57a-b:

Gittin 58a of the Babylonian Talmud:

"There were four hundred synagogues in the city of Bethar, and in every one were four hundred teachers of children, and each one had under him four hundred pupils, and when the enemy entered there they pierced them with their staves, and when the enemy prevailed and captured them, they wrapped them in their scrolls and burnt them with fire."

400 synagogues x 400 teachers/synagogue x 400 pupils/teacher = 64,000,000 children approx.

Found 2 original Red Cross letters with number of deaths in each camps; not sure if it's covered here or not:

Sharrow and ProWrestler_Joe,

Thanks for the suggestion of posting the above article - but I believe I need a certain number of posts before I can start my own thread?

Assuming that I need more posts before I can start my own... either one of you are welcome to start a new thread with the above article/link!

SneakyB

Have any of you seen the new film debunking Steve Spielberg's "The Last Days" by discrediting his eyewitnesses of the Holocaust?

Here is part 1 of 9:
www.youtube.com...

I'm always amazed at the lengths Nazi apologists go to minimize the slaughter.

And make no mistake: the OP and those who support the contentions are not interested in historical research, they are interested in diminishing Nazi culpability: Nazi apologists to the core.

Yeah, sure Hitler was just trying to make the world a better place.

The research has been done, redone, and done over a few million times, and it all points to the same end: the Nazis killed many millions of people deliberately with malice aforethought.

Does the fact that they didn't just kill Jews make it better?

If they only killed 5,988,000, that makes it all right?

The Holocaust happened, it was real, men, women, children, and babies were consumed by it.

And you sick morons want to argue that it wasn't all that bad because some so-called "expert" says so? What makes him an expert? Anyone who claims the Nazis killed only 60,000 people in their death camps isn't an expert in my book, but a Nazi-loving buttwipe with an agenda, because for it to be 99% fewer, 60,000 is what you are left with.

Somewhere in this thread someone questioned where the deaths came from if there 15 million Jews in 1938 and 15 million in 1948.

Idiots who can't do simple math shouldn't be allowed on forums like these: Try looking into the birthrate, then multiplying the annual birthrate by ten years and you'll find the missing numbers.

Mods: threads like these are offensive when placed in the general forums. There should be a place for arguments like these next to the "Is the Earth really round? Expert says it's flat!" and""Daylight doesn't really exist" threads.

Disgusting, just really, really disgusting.

Originally posted by apacheman
Somewhere in this thread someone questioned where the deaths came from if there 15 million Jews in 1938 and 15 million in 1948.

Idiots who can't do simple math shouldn't be allowed on forums like these: Try looking into the birthrate, then multiplying the annual birthrate by ten years and you'll find the missing numbers.

Since you likely don't consider to be yourself to be "an idiot who can't do simple math", let me ask for help with this reasoning of yours.

Take as an example demographics of Belarus. In case you didn't know, Belarus is one of the countries that suffered badly from genocidal practices of the Nazis:
en.wikipedia.org...

So basically, it took Belarus decades to recover from these losses, and a large part of this time was peace time and post-war recovery. The graph on the page above indicates that they caught up with their pre-war levels some time around 1970. What you are suggesting by comparison is that Jewish population of Germany and Eastern Europe managed to procreate at a superhuman rate under conditions when they were corraled into concentration camps, or otherwise existed in worst conditions imaginable. That is truly remarkable. It took them only 3 years post war to recover whereas the Belarus people only caught up in 25 years.

To clarify your theory, I'm asking you to do math and post your findings here.

reply to post by buddhasystem


The birth rate for Jews in 1938 was approximately 19 per 1K,and that most likely is an undercount,as there were manifold reasons not to record a Jewish birth.

On a base of 15M, that would mean an increase of nearly 280,000 per year without exponentiation. Ten years means some 3 million more Jews should have been recorded. Exponentiation will raise that number to at least 4M.

htt p://books.google.com/books?id=82ncGA4GuN4C&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=jewish+birth+rates+1938&source=bl&ots=wnLenEMuQ1&sig=mLHjA4vARx55xIShKo5ATQgheo8&hl=e n&ei=oNubTv_NLYaMiAKx-KGOCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&sqi=2&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=jewish%20birth%20rates%201938&f=false

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

The birth rate for Jews in 1938 was approximately 19 per 1K,and that most likely is an undercount,as there were manifold reasons not to record a Jewish birth.

The source you quoted basically gives a range of 13-15 as one reasonable estimate. What's more important, it's an incredible stretch of imagination that it stayed at that level during the nasty and pervasive Nazi persecution later on during the war, severe shortage of food and medical supplies. It just can't be. And looking at your calculation:

On a base of 15M, that would mean an increase of nearly 280,000 per year without exponentiation. Ten years means some 3 million more Jews should have been recorded. Exponentiation will raise that number to at least 4M.

Even with vastly inflated birth rate, you are still short 2M, don't you think? Another flaw in your calculation is the omission of the drop in the base according to your hypothesis -- i.e. if you assume that 6M were killed, you must fold it in your formula. As a crude approximation, assume the loss of life happened at one moment in time in 1943. This would translate into a reduction of about 1M, from the number you quote, so in fact you are short not 2M but whole 3M from the quoted figure of losses. I did it in my head w/o a calculator, so I may be off a little, but the ballpark is clear even with unrealistic birth rates you used.

Math is a funny thing, innit?

How many people on this thread have met people who were in the Nazi concentration camps?

I have.

I'd suggest that you look beyond the number, and consider that even if the numbers were smaller the disgusting thing that it was remains just as horrible.

And if you are a Nazi supporter - and I personally find them quite interesting - you should consider that all the wasted resources that that faction spent on this extermination cost them the war.

Originally posted by Aeons
I'd suggest that you look beyond the number, and consider that even if the numbers were smaller the disgusting thing that it was remains just as horrible.

I would find it hard to find anyone who would disagree with that. Smaller numbers, still pretty bad.

And if you are a Nazi supporter - and I personally find them quite interesting - you should consider that all the wasted resources that that faction spent on this extermination cost them the war.

I'm not a Nazi supporter but I find this statement specious.

reply to post by buddhasystem


forget it man , question the holohoax and you become a nazi... The only holocaust was on the russians 27 million dead and yet Russia won and does not cry or act like a drama queen.Russia has mended fences and become Germany's best friend.

and jews they are the biggest attention whores on the entire world.for every misconduct they do and are scrutinized they whine like babies about that holohoax of theirs.

reply to post by buddhasystem


They spent lots of time and effort on the extermination.

They moved away their best strategic minds into unimportant operational areas so that those people would not see what was happening,

In doing so they misused those people assets and extended their reach too far and into too many areas. Then did not give those people the resources they needed to do the job they were assigned because those resources were going to the extermination effort.

They could have wrapped up a large section of their campaign and solidified their hold on the Golden Triangle in Europe, long before Pearl Harbour. Owning the Golden Triangle would have solidified their eventual hold on all of Europe. They had well placed sympathizers throughout the rest of Europe.

The official account of the holocaust has got more holes in it than a string vest.

Anybody that believes everything the zionists claim is an idiot.

What does that tell you about the Jews that lap up the fairytale and spend their life blindly fighting everybody in it's defence.

Remember, the same zionists write Hollywood scripts and are masters in the art of deception.

Nobody is defending nazi's or saying Jews did not die at their hands, but that doesn't mean they can get away with genocide of Palestinians based on lies.