Only one percent of the Holocaust claims can be proven - Says Holocaust Scholar and Expert

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

You will never wake up early enough in the morning to win a debate with me Michael, nor do you even try, you just keep employing the squeaky wheel gets the grease victim dictum strategy to try to further an agenda of dominance for self gain.

You don't know how to engage in intellectual debate, Proty. You pick out a handful of anecdotes, factoids, distortions, even outright lies. Throw them into a blender, then you say "See, my case is proven. How can anyone dispute my facts"

The ignorant in your audience, the teenagers, those sharing your viral agenda - might even be impressed. Those with any depth and breadth just roll their eyes. Why even bother responding to this kind of drivel.

Try one of your 'Evil Zionist' stand up routines with an educated informed audience where banter and pseudo-information juggling can't be passed off as knowledge. Watch what happens.


[edit on 9-1-2010 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by sezsue
All I have seen from you and others like you, are people who don't want to have an open and honest debate. You don't back your words up with facts, your words are just your opinion.

Well you just weren't reading then were you?

You missed this post where I reference the Hofle Telegram

You missed it when I mentioned it again in this post, during which I also mentioned Operation Reinhard

Not only that but you even appear to have missed this post where I refer to the number of non jewish people killed in the holocaust

But if you want more facts Heres a post from April 2008 with some in - you'll note that my maths there gives a high figure no doubt, so further on in that very same thread - as Auschwitz was described as a "myth" earlier in thread - heres some rough maths showing how you can kill 918,900 people in three and half years at one camp

And...lets round it off with some photographs holocaust pictures exhibition

Now, I know - you'll come back and say "but that doesn't prove figures" - but hey - like I said, exact figures is playing with numbers. An atrocity happened, to an awful lot of people. There is an awful lot of evidence out there, compiled by an awful lot of people from all over the world, of all religions and creeds that says it did.

So tell me - are those things just my opinion?

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I am no psychologist friend, but they would likely be the emotions that are causing even a highly respected moderator of ATS to start bogging down a thread with minimal and off topic posts that have more to do with other members in their persons than the subject matter.

Well its a nice way of trying to play the issue - I'll give you that.

I don't think I've taken the thread off topic, in fact I think I've raised some valid points but hey - thats your opinion and you're welcome to it.

C'est la vie eh?

OK...so...lets go back to basics and look at the evidence directly relating to the events as of 3rd September 1945 shall we?

At that time there were

Survivors of the event.
Witnesses to the event.
The people who liberated the camps.
The physical evidence of the camps themselves - or what remained of them at the time of liberation.

So - lets be clear on this - at the basic level we're quite happy that the event happened - right?

I believe the title of the thread reads: Only one percent of the Holocaust claims can be proven - Says Holocaust Scholar and Expert

Keyword: Claims

It does NOT read: The Holocaust can't be proven.

Where along the line is anyone denying the Holocaust?

The horrid pictures exist. The survivor accounts exist. The witness accounts exist.

What can not be proven are the 'claims,' not the Holocaust itself. I think 99% of the world population can agree the Holocaust did in fact happen. I just wanted to make that point because I see this thread already being dubbed as Holocaust 'DENIAL' with people arguing against the Holocaust's existence. Again, read the title of the thread and comprehend it as it is not DENYING the Holocaust.

reply to post by neformore


There is evidence enough that bad things happened. But the scale is not visible and you can even call this video staged. Is what is shown really that what the narrator tells you? Do these "few" bodies prove the 6 million others or were they the only ones?
WARNING CONTAINS VERY GRAPHIC FOOTAGE!!!

Google Video Link

video.google.com...#
WARNING CONTAINS VERY GRAPHIC FOOTAGE!!!
But there is also evidence that some things didn't occurred as the are written down in the regular history books.

I don't deny its existence, it could have been located somewhere else but this raises also some serious questions.

reply to post by Regenstorm


Did you read my post above? The Hofle Telegram?

It mentions Treblinka. Its an intercept by British Intelligence of coded german transmissions during the war.

Tell me - do you think that the intercept is fake?

reply to post by Glass_Eyed_Max


Slow down

I'm going back to basics to find the root cause of this "argument" that stems from an event you say everyone agrees happened - because frankly, if everyone agrees it happened and a genocide occurred - then why are people buggering about with numbers? Will that stop the fact that a genocide occurred?

reply to post by neformore


I've seen it several times being posted by you during this thread. It's about deportation, no evidence of extermination. Why don't you reply to the remakrs I posted above? The Wannsee Protocols btw, are full of grammar mistakes as if written by someone foreign.

And it does matter if there are 6 million or 350,000 deaths. The cause of death is also important.
The number 6 million and Holocaust dates back to 1919.
brianakira.files.wordpress.com...&h%3D667&h%3D667

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by Regenstorm

 

Did you read my post above? The Hofle Telegram?

It mentions Treblinka. Its an intercept by British Intelligence of coded german transmissions during the war.

Tell me - do you think that the intercept is fake?

The Höfle Telegram[1] (or Hoefle Telegram) is a document discovered in 2000 among recently declassified World War II materials from the Public Record Office in Kew, England. The document consists of two messages, one to SS Obersturmbannführer Adolf Eichmann in Berlin, and one to SS Obersturmbannführer Heim, in Cracow, sent by SS Sturmbannführer Hermann Höfle on January 11 1943. It gave arrivals in the prior fortnight, and cumulative arrivals, for the camps of Einsatz Reinhardt (later more commonly called Aktion Reinhard) to December 31, 1942.

Hey Neformore, I just thought I would respond to you here, since you are bringing it up to Regenstorm as well as me.

First, I wanted to say congratulations, half of the references you gave to me in the response you made, refer to the same thing. I wasn't going to respond to you at all, but I saw this response, and figured I would at least point something out to you, since you brought it up to Regenstorm in regards to the Treblinka video.

Quoting from the Wikipedia (lol, usually people are very dismissive of Wikipedia, but I see they think it's ok to use at times) article, do you see that these are figures for arrivals, not deaths?

You know what, Neformore, you still did not address any of the points I made, including the information that in 1933 rich international and American Jews were fomenting a complete boycott of Germany, calling for a worldwide boycott, and yet you directed me to your April 2008 post, in which you mentioned that in 1933 Adolph Hitler imposed a boycott on German Jewish businesses, along with escalating measures against them.

I guess that German Jewish newspaper editor, who sent a telegram to Wise asking him to stop agitating against the Germans because he was causing rising trouble for German Jews was prophetic, was he not?

It seems the international and American Jews who were calling for a worldwide boycott against the Germans accomplished what they wanted to achieve, go back and read my post from Hitler then vs Hitler now, pg 11.
I would have given a link here but since it would not let me copy it I just pasted the information in the next post, to make it easy for the people who want to find out more.

[edit on 9-1-2010 by sezsue]

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by Glass_Eyed_Max

 

Slow down

I'm going back to basics to find the root cause of this "argument" that stems from an event you say everyone agrees happened - because frankly, if everyone agrees it happened and a genocide occurred - then why are people buggering about with numbers? Will that stop the fact that a genocide occurred?

Can you be any more biased? Can you twist any more of my statements?

Let's quote myself: "I think 99% of the world population can agree the Holocaust did in fact happen."


Now let's quote you: "I'm going back to basics to find the root cause of this "argument" that stems from an event you say everyone agrees happened."

Really? Did I say "everyone agrees happened? Is 99% everyone? Answer me this. lol Is 99% of the World Population everyone? What happened to the 1% left? So again, did I say "everyone agrees happened?" Or did I say 99%? One percent of World Population is 67 Million.

Let me quote you once more: "then why are people buggering about with numbers? Will that stop the fact that a genocide occurred?"

What you fail to understand is that "buggering about with numbers" does NOT equate to denying the genocide of occurring. In your little world, "Questioning" and "Denying" are one in the same.

You have not the slightest idea of what the root cause of this "argument" is because you are far too subjective.

reply to post by sezsue

From the Hitler Then vs Hitler Now thread, my reply, page 11

That period of time was extremely complicated, but there is more to the story than is obvious. This part is something you almost never hear about.

This is a series of two articles which I urge you to read in the interest of greater understanding of what happened. I am quoting a little from them to get you started.

The 1930s Economic Boycott of Germany - Prelude

Simultaneous with Adolf Hitler's rise to power in Germany, an international boycott was organized with the intention of destroying the National Socialists and keeping Germany subservient to the Treaty of Versailles.

One reads of the "violation of Jewish rights" in Germany in 1933 in the context of the international boycott orchestrated against that beleaguered nation. For a historian, however, this approach is not satisfactory, because events must be seen in the light of the fact that "the others, too"- in this case the Germans - had the same right to fight for their existence. If one wishes to be objective, it just will not do to speak only about Jewish rights having been violated without mentioning in this context that the whole German nation had been deprived of its rights by the Treaty of Versailles.

Countless Germans were unemployed, many had their property expropriated or were otherwise economically ruined; in fact, between 1919 and 1933, poverty, civil war and chaos reigned, with little hope of survival for many. Nor can it be passed over in silence that the conditions prevailing in Germany during that period had been largely influenced by victorious political and economic forces abroad, in particular those who took advantage of multi-national citizenship and who exploited their contacts with international authorities.

Dr. Nahum Goldmann, for many years president of the World Jewish Congress and the World Zionist Organization, wrote:

"As president of the largest Jewish organization, I disposed of budgets of hundreds of millions of dollars; I directed thousands of employees, and all this, I emphasize again, not for one particular state, but within the framework of international Jewry." [1]

And was German Jewry suffering as the propaganda in the United States and Great Britain suggested? Here's Goldmann again:

"German Jewry, which found its temporary end during the Nazi period, was one of the most interesting and, for modern Jewish history, most influential centers of European Jewry. During the era of emancipation, i.e., in the second half of the 19th and in the early 20th century, it had experienced a meteoric rise . . . It had fully participated in the rapid industrial rise of Imperial Germany, made a substantial contribution to it and acquired a renowned position in German economic life. Seen from the economic point of view, no Jewish minority in any other country, not even that in America, could possibly compete with the German Jews.

"They were involved in large-scale banking, a situation unparalleled elsewhere, and, by way of high finance, they had also penetrated German industry. A considerable portion of the wholesale trade was Jewish. They controlled even such branches of industry which is in general not in Jewish hands. Examples are shipping or the electrical industry, and names such as Ballin and Rathenau confirm this statement. I hardly know of any other branch of emancipated Jewry in Europe or the American continent that was as deeply rooted in the general economy as was German Jewry. American Jews of today are absolutely as well off as or relatively richer than the German Jews were at the time, it is true, but even in America with its unlimited possibilities the Jews have not succeeded in penetrating into the central spheres of industry (steel, iron, heavy industry, high finance, shipping) as was the case in Germany."

Goldmann again:

"I have no hesitation to say that hardly any section of the Jewish people has made such extensive use of the emancipation offered to them in the nineteenth century as the German Jews. In short, the history of the Jews in Germany from 1870 to 1933 is probably the most glorious rise that has ever been achieved by any branch of the Jewish people." [2]

The 1930s Economic Boycott of Germany - Execution

This amounted to nothing less than Wise's followers, without a mandate by German Jewry, brazenly demanding that Germany should forget about her right of self-determination in favor of these foreign spokesmen representing world Jewry - an impossible and irresponsible attitude in terms of world politics.

Wise simply regarded the prevailing situation as a state of war. He looked on the Jews as being "in the first trenches of the front." At the Second Preparative Conference in Geneva in early September, 1933, he stated:

Once again the Jewish people is called upon to suffer, for we are the suffering servants of humanity. We are called upon to suffer that humanity and civilization may survive and may endure. We have suffered before. We are the eternal suffering servants of God, of that world history which is world judgment.

We are ready if only the precious and the beautiful things of life may survive. That is once again the mission of the Jews. We stand on the front line, in the first row of trenches. [8]

Prior to this, representatives of German Jewry had repeatedly and emphatically protested against this agitation by Wise and others in the United States. For instance, the editors of a prominent Jewish newspaper in Hamburg had sent the following telegram as early as March, 1933:

GERMAN JEWS ACCUSE YOU AND ASSOCIATES TO BE TOOLS OUTSIDE POLITICAL INFLUENCES STOP YOUR SENSELESS OVERRATING OF OWN INTERNATIONAL IMPORTANCE AND LACK OF JUDGMENT DAMAGE LARGELY THOSE YOU PRETEND TO WANT TO PROTECT . . . BETTER SHUT OFF YOUR OWN LIMELIGHT AND USELESS MEETINGS AS SUREST MEANS AGAINST ANTI-SEMITlSM . . . THIS IS YOUR MOST IMPORTANT DUTY TO REPAIR YOUR CRIMES AGAINST US.[9]

By bringing these to your attention, I am not condoning what Adolph Hitler ultimately came to be.....just trying to shed some light on what happened, through the words of the people who lived through it and were directly involved.

So - lets be clear on this - at the basic level we're quite happy that the event happened - right?

No my friend, I am not happy at all that the event happened, not only did relatives of mine die an untimely death in World War II but so did about 52 million other people die tragic, cruel, unnecessary and untimely deaths.

This is not the kind of thing I celebrate; to me each life is precious and no life is beyond redemption and no one life is greater in value than any other.

I honestly believe based on my own research that the main instigators and architects of the war not only escaped unscathed and unpunished but survived to enjoy the blood money earned off of their machinations and that their descendents enjoy the benefit of those proceeds today.

In my humble opinion the United States Government which rules the country I was born and raised into was at best a barely credible entity for the first 75 years of it’s existence and ceased being credible as an entity when Congress was disbanded in 1861 and never legally recalled into session.

Any hope of its credibility being restored ceased to exist in my humble opinion in 1911 along with the Federal Reserve Act placing the minting of our fictitious de facto instrument of debt currency attached to nothing of intrinsic value into the hands of foreign powers.

When the Corporate United States formed after the Civil War entered Bankruptcy in the 1930’s as a result of the machinations and duplicities of the bankers and the industrialists at the conclusion of World War I even that fraudulent corporate entity lost its independence.

I sir live on a slave planet where scarcity, war, famine, and man’s indifference to man rule supreme, where I trust not one word that comes out of the government and the media.

I shall not make excuses for it, I shall not pretend it is just, I shall not pretend the human race can not be better and do no better, I shall not deny the truths that to me are self evident just so that some people could turn any war or act of cruelty into a cause to celebrate, or to be happy about.

I shall fear no evil, nor shrink in the face of it. I have dedicated my life to finding the truth in all things, and remain steadfast in my dedication to that proposition.

The devil lays in the details my friend, and on this particular subject it is the details that some would so desperately love to hide to do all those things mentioned above that I will not entertain.

We have been lied to about everything and that does include much if not all regarding the World Wars and the part of it that has come to be known as the Holocaust as well.

If I were interested in the official version of things I would be watching the History Channel and not blogging on ATS.

The Holocaust was just one dark insidious part of a complex conspiracy still yet to be stopped that continues to drive world events and send people to early graves even as we speak.

Of that I remain convinced, and I am a person hard to convince, for I am a person who reserves judgment to all the facts are known.

In short the attitudes, the organizations, and the descendants of who really caused the Wars and the event known as the Holocaust still exist today.

They shall strike again and even more horrifically because we have failed in our duty to ferret them out.

We have failed in out duty to ferret them out because the people allowed themselves to be sold a convenient and emotionally satisfying fiction by corrupt powers and governments.

Celebrate? Happy? Nay, not I, for I have fins to left of me, and fins to the right of me and I am stuck in the middle with the only game in town!

I fight the good fight friend, and I urge others to do the same.

Thanks.


[edit on 9/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by mmiichael

Try one of your 'Evil Zionist' stand up routines with an educated informed audience where banter and pseudo-information juggling can't be passed off as knowledge. Watch what happens.

Lets see over one million of the most devout Orthodox Jews would nod their heads in agreement and pat me on the pack.

Some of the wealthiest and most powerful people on the planet would nod their heads sagely and concur.

Some of the most intellectual and well read scholars and deep thinkers would as well.

That will be .10 cents, and or a ticket please, feel free to take it off the tab for the space I rent in your head though!

Thanks Michael, love you mean it!

Originally posted by DeathShield
First off how do you know where i place myself in the human race? I have said this before and i will say it again. I do not put my judaism or my holy land above anyone else.

So DeathShield, I hope you don't mind me asking you and that you will repy to me: What is the lettering on your avatar that includes the upside down cross dripping blood?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Lets see over one million of the most devout Orthodox Jews would nod their heads in agreement and pat me on the pack.

Some of the wealthiest and most powerful people on the planet would nod their heads sagely and concur.

Some of the most intellectual and well read scholars and deep thinkers would as well.

In your blinkered world Proty,

if anyone is spouting some vile malarkey you truly want believe you'll accept the ravings of any fringe group or hate literature generated by an academics fruitcake.

For you that trumps the methodical research of thousands of historians worldwide, the eyewitnesses testimony of millions, warehouses full of records and documents, countless mass graves.


Keep denying.



[edit on 10-1-2010 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by Glass_Eyed_Max
What you fail to understand is that "buggering about with numbers" does NOT equate to denying the genocide of occurring. In your little world, "Questioning" and "Denying" are one in the same.

Let me put this in simple words for you, because what I've written so far apparently does not seem to have sunk in.

I have no problem with people questioning numbers, because frankly no one knows exact figures for sure.

I do have a problem with people using the questioning of numbers as a basis for outright denial of the whole event

Can I make that much clearer? I don't think I can.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
No my friend, I am not happy at all that the event happened, not only did relatives of mine die an untimely death in World War II but so did about 52 million other people die tragic, cruel, unnecessary and untimely deaths.

The use of the word happy in my text is not meant to imply a joyus celebration of the event.

It is used to imply that you, yourself are cognisant, and accept, that the events of the holocaust happened.

Do you understand that?

In that context, what is your response?

reply to post by Regenstorm


reply to post by sezsue


Tell me something.

Whats the point of "deporting" all those people to a place in the middle of Poland where there was no infrastructure, no town and nothing for them to do?

reply to post by sezsue


The problem is this sezsue.

Is a call for the boycott of goods grounds for the industrialised slaughter of people?

And is it grounds to subsequently question the event or try and "sanitise" its motives in some way?

And - as I highlighted above, what about the other groups of people killed by the Nazi's in a similar manner. What does it have to do with them, exactly?

It wasn't just jewish people killed in the holocaust - you do realise that, don't you?


[edit on 10/1/10 by neformore]

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by Regenstorm

 

reply to post by sezsue

 

Tell me something.

Whats the point of "deporting" all those people to a place in the middle of Poland where there was no infrastructure, no town and nothing for them to do?

What would you do with an undesired group of people? Send them to Disneyland and let them stay at the Sheraton or Hilton Hotel? I also think that you tend to visualise everything from a today's point of view.
How was life in prison like during the 30s/40s in America, the UK and the rest of the world? How were those prisoners circumstances? How are the circumstances in a jail in Morocco or Turkey today?
Do you want a refugee-camp or a jail next to your suburb or school?

Why all the trouble to deport them if you planned to kill them anyway?

reply to post by neformore


I have a question for you. Were in that time only the Germans anti-Semites?
And before the Nazis, were the Jews loved by every other race/nation/culture?