Only one percent of the Holocaust claims can be proven - Says Holocaust Scholar and Expert

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I see your point but your point also in part is aimed to how to deal with the lowest possible common denominator amongst people by barring discussion amongst the highest possible common denominator that might confuse the lowest possible common denominator.

Not at all.

Its simple logic

How can historical accuracy of a period justifiably be questioned by quoting history from the period?

Or let me put it another way.

Why don't people question any other of the facts about World War 2 as vociferously as this one?

Because no other facets of the facts about WWII are protected against being questioned so vociferously maybe?

To the point of passing laws to protect against questioning it.

It's human nature to buck against the tightest restrictions..........

Originally posted by mmiichael
The number of people killed at the designated Concentration Camps is routinely used by Holocaust Deniers to try to create doubt on the 6 Million figure.

HA!

see what you wrote!


if the accounts are absolutely TRUE then why worry about doubt?
doubt proven unfounded is very good testimony.

reply to post by mmiichael


'accounting for maybe half the six million'? Are you guessing? Everything I've read about the official holocaust story says that the six million died in concentration camps like auschwitz, which itself supposed accounted for 2/3rds of the total ie. 4 million. That story has been around for decades and now all of a sudden, when the auschwitz total drops to 1.5 million, we hear 'Oh well, the missing millions still died, just not in camps but rather somewhere else in villages and farms somewhere... over in the east'. So now the story has changed in order to keep the total the same? Is that what you're really saying? Do you have any idea how your pathetic attempt to salvage the official story has actually undermined it instead.

Have YOU not been reading this thread in particular the posts about how millions of jews were either in danger of being killed or were in fact being killed as reported in the western press as early as the 1920's? What's more likely? That the western press was psychic and saw into the future that 6 million would eventually be killed or that the number of jewish deaths was just a continuation of a pre-war propoganda myth.

Clearly you have not found the references on the internet to both jewish and non-jewish sources that confirm that over a million Polish jews fled to Russia ahead of German occupation and over 2 million polish and russian jews fled deeper into Russia to escape the german invasion of Russia. I'm not saying that some jews didn't get caught by the germans in eastern europe and western russia. But anecdotal evidence, which is what you've offered does not prove the numbers that you're assuming.

[edit on 7-1-2010 by Beancounter72]

Professor Butz of the prestigious Northwestern University produced a book on the subject of holocaust claims, documentations, and controversies. He is labled a "denier", but his scientific approach bears reading.

I don't think the scholar about whom this thread is based is dealing with the same issues. This issue is more about letting history ease into a new era rather than denying anything in particular. Pointing out that evidence does not exist for many of the claims is not to necessarily "deny". Our court system surely recognizes this difference.

Originally posted by Beancounter72
No such apologies were ever offered after WW2 for any of the numerous propoganda claims made by the allies. And given how the Soviet government has a history of lying to their own people, anything they say with respect to the nazis has to be taken with a grain of salt. Keep in mind that Auschwitz and other camps in eastern europe fell within the soviet zone of occupation and therefore they had ample opportunity to fabricate evidence such as the alleged gas chamber at auschwitz.

good point.


especially because obviously Stalin was gunning for Berlin...
then the cold war lasted until around 1990.

:shk:

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by mmiichael
The number of people killed at the designated Concentration Camps is routinely used by Holocaust Deniers to try to create doubt on the 6 Million figure.

HA!

see what you wrote!

if the accounts are absolutely TRUE then why worry about doubt?
doubt proven unfounded is very good testimony.

Maybe consider a reading comprehension course. Just a comment on the fact that Concentration Camps were only one way Jews were murdered - and far from the only one.

The size and scale of the Holocaust is known by corroborating data, documentation, testimony, and has never been in serious doubt.

We are talking about a fringe sub-industry that goes to great lengths attempting to discredit Jews and all the information that has been assembled. Tactics are shallow and pretty obvious and we see them on this thread.

One conflicting opinion by a supposed expert, a line in a speech made decades ago, an questionable statement in a document, a few disparities in records and charts, do not alter history.

Holocaust Deniers think they can pile up a few dozen inconsistencies and it brings into question warehouses full of documentation, literally millions of accounts, photo evidence, etc.

People forget that the onus isn't on anyone to repeatedly demonstrate the Holocaust actually happened and that there were 6 million Jews systematically hunted down and killed becuae they were Jews.

The entire world knew that by 1946. Details and specifics keep coming in.
Nothing has come in that radically changes the picture.

Malicious hate driven people feel they can keep asking for further validation and somehow come up with an inconsistency that will change what is now recorded history.

Some are so out of touch with reality they think not getting an adequate response on a conspiracy site thread will somehow reinforce their pervy hate fantasies.

Good Luck


[edit on 7-1-2010 by mmiichael]

Firstly - what Israel is doing in Palestine is in my personal view is as abhorent as Jewish (gypsy, masonic and people suffering from mental illness treatment etc) under the Nazis (for clarity the majority of the German and Austrian population at the time and their Axis allies).

Secondly - lack of existing physical evidence is not proof that it didn't happen.

Thirdly - photographic, and armed-service witness observation exists.

Fourthly - evidence was presented at the Nuremburg trials and I think it is well documented that Nazis like Goering, Hess, Frank, Frick, Striecher, Funk, Jodl, Bormann, Ribbentrop, Kaltenbrunner, Rosenburg, Schact, von Schirach, Seyss-Inquart, Speer, von Neurath and Fritzche never denied the scale of what was perpetrated.

Link this to Adolf Eichmann and the German's own newsreel footage of their treatment of fellow human beings and does it matter whether it's 500,000 or 6,000,000 people - these people were guilty of crimes against humanity.

Equally, the UK and the USA knew that these death camps existed and what exactly was going on. They could have carpet bombed these camps early on and perhaps reduced the efficiency of whatever was going on.

The reality is that there is an inherent evil streak in mankind and in certain situations morality and ethics go out of the window. In effect humanity reveals itself for what it really is - A Sickening Parasite on this beautiful planet.

Originally posted by DeathShield
They also love to ignore the fact that as the allies were invading the nazis were destroying as many documents as possible. In fact as recently as 2005, Belgian officials destroyed nazi holocaust records.

www.brusselsjournal.com...

Yep, good find. Gave you a star for it, and for your response. i wish i could give you a flag for that link. Below is an excerpt from that link you gave.

Let's try to remind the "unbelievers" of the extent that some people have done things to try to put doubts into the extent of the attrocities caused by the NAZI regime....

The Belgian authorities have destroyed archives and records relating to the persecution and deportation of Jews in Belgium in the 1930s and 1940s. Some of this happened as recently as the late 1990s. This was revealed during hearings in the Belgian Senate last Spring. Though the Senate report dates from 4 May the Belgian press has not yet mentioned the affair. [update 3 Sept.: The Brussels Dutch-language newspaper De Morgen published an article on page 6 of its 14 Dec. 2005 edition, under the title: Archives about Persecution of Jews were Intentionally Destroyed] The Senate report says that “documents about the period 1930-1950 have been destroyed on a massive scale.”

The systematic destructions of the records of police and judiciary from the 1930s and ’40s happened chiefly in Brussels and Wallonia, the French-speaking south of Belgium. The Senate report states that in Flanders, the Dutch-speaking north of the country, archives have been saved thanks to conscientious archivists. “This policy – of having competent archivists manage dead archives – contrasts with the disastrous situation at the offices of the public prosecutors in Brussels and Wallonia.”

While the records about the persecution of the Antwerp Jewry have been kept intact, documents about the fate of the Jews in Brussels and in French-speaking cities with large pre-war Jewish communities, such as Charleroi and Liège, were purposely destroyed. In Charleroi all the archives relating to the 1930s and the war years have vanished. In Brussels the judicial archives are present “until the early 1930s, while there is (almost) nothing left of the period thereafter,” the report says, adding that “Reference is often made to the 1944 fire of the Palais de Justice to explain this lack of archives [...] However, there is no doubt that large parts of the Brussels judicial wartime archives were destroyed after 1944.”

www.brusselsjournal.com...

I try to avoid many of these discussions because today's closet NAZIS are still alive and well, some people are just uninformed but many don't even want to listen, and too many of the threads being posted in the forums are anti-Israeli, but of course such people hide behind the claims "i am not anti-Israeli" even though their threads blame an entire nation for the actions of some....such as the one about "Israel harvested organs" where a few #$%@#% try to blame the entire state of Israel for the actions of some people... Try to do the same about Islamic countries and see what happens....

I avoid those threads because I would be banned by things I would say to today's NAZIS....



[edit on 7-1-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by queenannie38


Please

Explain this to me

Thanks

Originally posted by dww25
Firstly - what Israel is doing in Palestine is in my personal view is as abhorent as Jewish (gypsy, masonic and people suffering from mental illness treatment etc) under the Nazis (for clarity the majority of the German and Austrian population at the time and their Axis allies).

It is not the same... Meanwhile there have been some attrocities committed by the Israeli military they try as much as they can to attack certain people, and those people happen to be terrorists hiding among Palestinian civilians... The NAZIS exterminated as many Israelis, and other minorities as they could....

Your trying to put what the Israeli military have has to do to keep their own people safe with what the NAZIS did just shows your bias.

Originally posted by dww25
Equally, the UK and the USA knew that these death camps existed and what exactly was going on. They could have carpet bombed these camps early on and perhaps reduced the efficiency of whatever was going on.

Show proof that they knew this was going to happen....otherwise this is nothing more than a biased opinion on your part wihtout any evidence to support it...

Originally posted by dww25
The reality is that there is an inherent evil streak in mankind and in certain situations morality and ethics go out of the window. In effect humanity reveals itself for what it really is - A Sickening Parasite on this beautiful planet.

I am certain you haven't even spent one day/night in the wild.... A poisonous snake can look beautiful also and it is deadly. In the same manner even though mother nature is beautiful it can kill anyone, and everyone if you are not careful...

Animals have been known, and shown in these same forums time and again to be as "inhumane" as some humans.... There are male sea lions that attack female sea lions, take their young, rape them, and then kill them....

There are females of various species who have been known to kill, and even eat their own young...while others have adopted the young babies of other species who for one reason or another became motherless....

There are spieces of animals, and insetcs that attack and kill other species, even entire colonies just for resources, territory, and for food, just like humans do/have done...

Some people have some idealized, and fantastical view about nature that is NOWHERE close to reality... and sorry to say you appear to be one of these people....

Human beings are the embodiment of nature just like all animals, insects and even the flora of this planet are.


[edit on 7-1-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

This is a reply to the OP Sharrow

In my opinion you have made a very general claim.

Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove . . . it has become part of our inherited knowledge.

99% of what?

Demjanjuk, a former Soviet Red Army soldier, is charged with 27,900 counts of accessory to murder for his alleged activities as a guard at Sobibor, for which prosecutors allege he volunteered as an SS guard after being captured by the Germans in 1942.

Source

I only did a quick search but I'm sure I can find much more and if you look at the numbers then you might be able to see flaws in your logic.

How many people have been sentenced in relation to mass systemic murder on the Nazi side ( atrocities happened on every side). Now add up all those dead people, I'm sure the number will be quite high.

Now I would not say that was 100%, but it does indicate that if one Guard was directly involved in the murder of nearly 30,000 people. Does that not open up the possibility that a further 200 people could have committed the same atrocity? which equals hmmm 6,000,000.

Now I do think there is a huge amount of hypocrisy in the Israeli state considering what they have and are continuing to do.

You have in my opinion taken a quote out of context, of an article that does not question the holocaust and twisted it some, added that no racist comments should be made and then set out your stall.

I put it to you, show where the lack of evidence is. Show the cover up. Show something.

Have you kept your eyes closed to the footage of bodies being bulldozed into mass graves? Normal people lined up and shot? the propaganda films?

Looks like it. If the holocaust did not happen then why did'nt all of Germany stand up and say "hold on one minute" we are not guilty.

You can pick apart my opinion, dismiss it but I know you understand where I am coming form.



[edit on 7-1-2010 by bharata]

To not only deny but to forget the holocaust happened would be a terrible mistake to humanity.

To say there is little to no evidence is unbelievable. With countless survivors with still visible tattoos, an overwhelming amount of photographic evidence, thousands of Nazi documents. Its an incredibly outlandish statement.

I was going to post links but then realized I could do that for days and days to only provide a minute amount of information.


[edit on 7-1-2010 by Lesch]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Like the Southern United States, Germany still exists under a form of Military Occupation with only a limited form of sovereignty to govern itself within parameters dictated to it by the allied powers who won the war.

What a lot of rubbish, why ignore the "Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany"?
"Under the terms of the treaty, the Four Powers renounced all rights they formerly held in Germany, including in regard to the city of Berlin. As a result, the reunited country became fully sovereign on 15 March 1991"
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Sharrow


Some more reading for you.

www.ushmm.org...

The goals of the International Military Tribunal (IMT) transcended verdict and punishment. The creators of the court were deliberately assembling a public record of the horrific crimes committed by Germans during World War II, including those of the Holocaust. American chief prosecutor Robert Jackson worried that "unless record was made … future generations would not believe how horrible the truth was."

Quote taken from above source

reply to post by dereks


You might want to have both an honest attorney and accountant read that Treaty friend.

There is after all a 5th party involved, Caesar relinquishes his rights to no one, and Germany remains under military occupation and is bound by a Constitution created for it by which to govern by other entities than Germans.

Thanks!

Originally posted by sezsue
To the point of passing laws to protect against questioning it.

It's human nature to buck against the tightest restrictions..........

Armenia genocide. Only Turkey questions, everyone else agrees it occurred. The European Union Parliament also made it illegal to question that genocide.

What about the Rape of Nanking? That occurred during the Second World War, why are you not questioning that? Oh wait, it is because you think Jews and not Chinese's are ruling the world

reply to post by Beancounter72


Did it miss your mind that as people died, they brought more in. Thus millions of people died, but did not at one time live there.

Also, soviet soldiers are not the soviet government.

reply to post by sezsue


I'm sorry, but I've yet to see these professionals. You show me minority opinions from sites trying to disprove it all together.

And I don't really care what you think about my opinion. The basis for science and knowledge was not made by professionals. professionals continued the work started from common everyday teachers and priests in the mountains.

As far as I've seen, the Germans were interested in absolutely anything they could learn.

It has been proven that they sewed twins together poisoned twins, did pressure experiments, gas experiments, sterilization experiments, the list goes on and on. Here's the simple fact. When you do such horrible things in the name of science, you will not have a problem doing anything else. Bare in mind that most evidence was lost in their attempts to hide their work. Therefore, testimonies from many people is better then the "research" of the few professionals. Tell me, how did they do these tests to prove it wrong when many of these items are no longer physically there, but buried? What tests done by who?

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

I beg to differ and your rationale is akin to calling the kettle black. The Israelis are stealing land and isolating the Palestinian population - they are creating illegal kibutz.

Secondly, the terrorist organisations to which you refer are not necessarily perceived as that by the Palestinian population - in fact they could be considered as patriots in Palestine and the Arab world.

I did say it was my personal view and I'm entitled to that - and apparently it is as biased as your own - regardless of the apparent factual base that you quote.

Israel was born out of terrorism post 2nd World War just ask UK forces who were subjected to terrorism in that period prior to the creation of the state. Since its formation which was sponsored by the USA to de-stabilise the Middle East and give them a surragate power broker it has been the common denominator in most Middle East conflagrations - FACT.

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by sezsue
To the point of passing laws to protect against questioning it.

It's human nature to buck against the tightest restrictions..........

Armenia genocide. Only Turkey questions, everyone else agrees it occurred. The European Union Parliament also made it illegal to question that genocide.

What about the Rape of Nanking? That occurred during the Second World War, why are you not questioning that? Oh wait, it is because you think Jews and not Chinese's are ruling the world

You are trying to make it sound like I am questioning whether the holocaust happened. I am NOT questioning whether Jews were killed in WWII, I know they were, along with many other people.

Guess what? WWII was not all about the Jews. Plenty of other people died.

When you state that I am not questioning these other instances because I think Jews and not Chinese are ruling the world, you are assuming a lot, and making a big statement about YOURSELF, rather than me, but I still don't appreciate you trying to make me sound like a racist.

I wasn't aware of the fact that the EU Parliament made it illegal to question the Armenian genocide. In 2007, they specifically excluded the Armenian genocide, but included the Rwanda and Yugoslavian genocides.

I think that is wrong as well. Questioning the details when they keep changing is pretty natural. It should not be illegal to ask questions.

It is different when people specifically incite ACTING against a certain population. THAT is wrong!

Asking questions is not suggesting rising up against or harming a particular people or country.

I don't really know that much about either of the two instances you used for an example, and do you know why?

Because I don't live in those areas, and I don't belong to any of the populations affected by those atrocities.

And because hundreds of movies and books have not been written about either of the examples you gave.

People are not questioning whether the event happened, they are questioning some of the statements being touted as facts.

Why should we not question it when numerous articles were written during WWI about 6 million Jews being destroyed, and then again in WWII, and the numbers keep changing, being revised DOWNWARD.

A lot of the numbers come from Jewish scholars and publications, as well.
See here for a list of revised numbers

Here, I'll get you started. This is a partial list:

9,000,000 Source: Cited by the French documentary, Night and Fog, which has been shown to millions of school students worldwide.

8,000,000 Source: The French War Crime Research Office, Doc. 31, 1945.

7,000,000 Source: Also cited by the French War Crime Research Office.

6,000,000 Source: Cited in the book Auschwitz Doctor by Miklos Nyiszli. It has since been proven that this book is a fraud and the "doctor" was never even at Auschwitz, even though the book is often cited by historians.

5,000,000 to 5,500,000 Source: Cited in 1945 at the trial of Auschwitz commander Rudolf Höss, based on his confession which was written in English, a language he never spoke.

5,000,000 Source: Cited on April 20, 1978 by the French daily, Le Monde. Also cited on January 23, 1995 by the German daily Die Welt. By September 1, 1989, Le Monde reduced the figure to 1,433,000.

1,100,000 to 1,500,000 Source: Sources for this estimate are Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum in their 1984 book, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp. This estimate was later also cited by Walter Reich, former director of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, writing in The Washington Post on September 8, 1998. The upper figure of 1,500,000 is (the new) "official" figure as now inscribed at Auschwitz, with the earlier figure of 4,000,000 having been removed from the memorial at the site of the former concentration camp.

1,000,000 Source: Jean-Claude Pressac, writing in his 1989 book Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. This is interesting since he wrote his book to repudiate so-called "Holocaust deniers" who were called that precisely because they had questioned the numbers of those who had died at Auschwitz.

630,000 to 710,000 Source: In 1994 Pressac scaled his figure down somewhat further; this is the figure cited in the German language translation of Pressac's 1993 book originally published in French. Again, this is substantially less than Pressac's 1989 figure of 1,000,000.

135,000 to 140,000 Source: This is an estimate based on documents held by the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross. It is known that International Tracing Service has a complete set of registration documents. This is thought to include a complete set of roll-call data which includes twice daily tallies of those who died. Although the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross has such records, they have never officially published an accurate count of those who died, or even an accurate report as to exactly which documents they hold. However, totals from these records have been obtained by various interested parties.

The estimate of 135,500 is roughly corroborated by the "Auschwitz death books." The death books themselves are wartime German camp records, which were captured by the Soviets towards the end of the war, and hidden in Soviet achieves, until released to the Red Cross in 1989.

The death books consist of 46 volumes which document each death at Auschwitz (each death certificate consists of the deceased person's full name, profession and religion, date and place of birth, pre-Auschwitz residence, parents' names, time of death, and cause of death as determined by a camp physician). The records for the most important years, 1942 and 1943, are almost complete (there are also a few volumes for the year 1941, but none for the year 1944 or January 1945 (when Auschwitz was evacuated)).

The Auschwitz death books contain the death certificates of some 69,000 individuals, of whom about 30,000 were listed as Jews. You may view various entries in the Auschwitz Death Books by clicking on the following links to the Auschwitz museum:

Using all available wartime records from the various camps it has been estimated that between 400,000 and 500,000 people died in the German concentration camp system (from all causes).