Only one percent of the Holocaust claims can be proven - Says Holocaust Scholar and Expert

Originally posted by queenannie38
NOW, let’s talk about GAS CHAMBERS and the associated use of hydracyanic acid/Zyklon-B pellets for the purpose of causing death in humans:

You can stop with the usual catalogue of selected factoids provided by the hate sites trying so hard to disprove the Holocaust. Try reading through the thread for some actual historical facts and data.

The Neo-Nazis have a lot of problems contradicting the massive documentation of the actual Nazis themselves. Bu that doesn't stop them from manipulating bits of pseudo-data on Zyklon-B, which actually was only involved in a tiny percentage of the millions of deaths.


.

Originally posted by Gorman91
All of this doesn't remove that:

A.) forcing people into camps is wrong
B.) people died, and Germans admitted it
C.) the countless facts that people were tortured for scientific progress
D.) Germans, like all major governments at the time, were interested in eugenics and biological control and application in war.

A.) yes it is - but in war, everybody does it
B.) yes they did - but once again, it was during a war
C.) please provide "countless facts" with sources
D.) since you admit yourself, that all major governments were interested, what's your point?

As a matter of fact, I'd trust the testimonies of thousands of soldiers on all sides, and millions of people for more than any government agency or historic researchers.

trust whomever you like

Remember where you are. Since when is what officials claim taken as truth over testimonies on this site?

i KNOW where i am

i provided sources that meet the guidelines of ATS

Originally posted by mmiichael
You can stop with the usual catalogue of selected factoids provided by the hate sites trying so hard to disprove the Holocaust.

check my sources
don't assume

that's all i have to say to you, mmiichael
unless you start citing sources instead of spouting your opinion without substantiation

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by mmiichael
You can stop with the usual catalogue of selected factoids provided by the hate sites trying so hard to disprove the Holocaust.

check my sources
don't assume

that's all i have to say to you, mmiichael
unless you start citing sources instead of spouting your opinion without substantiation.

As I noted in the last message numerous reliable sources and links have been provided throughout this thread.

I recommend reading objective historical material on a subject you seem to have such great interest in.

Happy hunting.

99% of the Holocaust can't be proven; that's laughable. If you want to try and prove the genocide using only physical and "empirical" evidence, and ignore the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of witnesses and well documented papers then I would agree with that statement.

However, I guess that's like saying God doesn't exist even though millions of people say he does. Though, it's different, I know you all know what I mean.

This might have been said already, but here it is anyways:

1% of the Holocaust is still 120,000 people.

reply to post by Sharrow


Probably because most of the evidence comes as stories from survivors who endured the horrors of the NAZI extermination regime.

Those people who were sent to death camps and never returned had other families who survived, and those families reported the dissapearances of their family members....and there were/are some Germans who grew a concious and decided to help or to tell the world as to what happened.....

But then again, it all boils down to who you want to believe... The survivors, and the Germans who helped Jewish people, and reported what they saw or the NAZIs who still live today and try to use any, and every excuse to claim the holocaust never occurred?......

This plus the fact that these days most nations which are part of the UN, plus some other outside groups want to find any and every excuse they can come up with to bash Israel and even to dissolve it, and the best way to do this is to put doubts about the holocaust...

But hey I guess today's NAZIS are right, and the surviving families who saw their family members being loaded into trucks, or trains to be sent to some death camp, and then they were never heard from again, or those survivors who saw their relatives being murdered, and the few Germans who grew a coincious and told the world about what happened they all lied.....

So how do you prove the stories by the surviving members who had family members dissapear, or the accounts by the eye witnesses when most bodies have not been found?...

Those who dissapeared are/were not living off in an island somewhere enjoying their pensions...

But I guess only the NAZIS are right, so, long live the NAZIS right?......





[edit on 7-1-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by queenannie38


Facts? The pictures, the testimonies, the Luger my grandfather got off an ss officer. This is a conspiracy site. thousands of people saying they all saw the same thing swings way more than a bunch of hate sites.

Also, my point is that you're trying to discredit what the Germans did. My point is that you cannot make them look less guilty, you can only make everyone look just as guilty as they are. one is inclusive, the other is exclusive. You are being exclusive, I am being inclusive. Inclusive always wins because inclusive isn't biased.

And as far as anything goes, Germany was the worst in terms of ethnic cleansing. Russians killed for no reason at all, thus making them the worst monsters. The US only imprisoned people. They did not put them through death camps, but Japanese camps were pretty bad none the less. At face value, what you have is this. The US and the west was better than the Russians and the Germans through and through. It was the Germans and Russians who partook on active task on eliminating certain people. The Americans and the allies took value in human life, at least attempting to give their war crimes some sort of reason, as opposed to mindless slaughter.

Here's the point. The Germans put into camps people just because they were who they were, the Americans put people in camps because the Japanese government activly lied to the Americans, and as such they could not honestly know who was a spy and who was not. The Germans actively sought to extermiante certain people, and use the left overs in genetic experiments to attempt to create a master race, as was the policy of eugenics int he day. American Eugenics groups collapsed once it was understood what the Germans were doing. The Germans viewed the people in camps as lesser beings. The Americans viewed people in camps as people who were unfortunately tied up in war and innocent until proven guilty. The Russians and Germans viewed political dissenters as people to kill, the Americans viewed political dissenters as enemies, but enemies who won supreme court cases for their right to be political dissenters.

The difference is obvious. And nothing you can say from your supposed evidence can change the fact that thousands of soldiers, civilians, and prisoners gave testimonies of their problems By a simple rule, and not to mention a very important rule on a conspiracy website, mass testimony wins all the time. If mass testimonies are wrong, then every single conspiracy on this website means nothing, and the website has no point to exist, and your presence here is totally without reason.

again,

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

news.nationalgeographic.com...

www.scrapbookpages.com...

www.whale.to...

books.google.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 7-1-2010 by Gorman91]

reply to post by Gorman91


Gorman

Check out Edwin Black's book "War against the weak"

Against the mongrelization of the submerged tenth, the eugenicists posed the purity of the Nordic races. Peoples of the north, they held, had forged their superiority over generations through the struggle to survive in severe environments. The weaker members had long been eliminated by natural selection. This was set out in texts like The Passing of a Great Race by American eugenicist Madison Grant, which Hitler read while imprisoned in the mid '20s for inciting mob violence. (The German translation was published by Hitler's co-conspirator Julius Lehman; Hitler even wrote Grant a fan letter declaring the book his "Bible.") There can be no doubt, given the extensive documentation Black presents, that American eugenicists and their supporters were at least willing fellow travelers if not out-and-out collaborators in the German pursuit of racial purity. Rockefeller money was still going to the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Anthropology, Human Heredity and Eugenics and other Nazi research centers up to the eve of the invasion of Poland. The Eugenical News, official journal of the American Eugenics Research Association, openly praised Nazi Jewish policies even as blitzkrieg raged. Lest anyone think it an isolated moment in American history, Black proposes that eugenics lives on in new forms. Instead of the term eugenics, with its incendiary associations, the preferred label is now the more neutral "human genetics." However, remnants of the eugenic philosophy can be discerned in practices like premarital blood testing, IQ and other standardized tests, and so-called free market solutions to social welfare. James Watson, co-discover of the DNA double helix and current head of the laboratory complex formerly occupied by Charles Davenport, has been quoted as saying 10 percent of the world's population suffers from irreversible genetic defects. The genetic code of the entire population of Iceland resides on an Internet database managed by IBM under the heading "Life Services--Nordic."

Originally posted by sealteamsix
99% of the Holocaust can't be proven; that's laughable. If you want to try and prove the genocide using only physical and "empirical" evidence, and ignore the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of witnesses and well documented papers then I would agree with that statement.

However, I guess that's like saying God doesn't exist even though millions of people say he does. Though, it's different, I know you all know what I mean.

Could you give me a link to your info? I mean, where I can find the thousands upon thousands of witnesses and well documented papers?

Thanks,

Peace

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Could you give me a link to your info? I mean, where I can find the thousands upon thousands of witnesses and well documented papers?

start here
www.nizkor.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

history1900s.about.com...

holocaustresources.cjh.org...

www.teacheroz.com...

remember.org...

that should get you started

[edit on 7/1/10 by dereks]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


They also love to ignore the fact that as the allies were invading the nazis were destroying as many documents as possible. In fact as recently as 2005, Belgian officials destroyed nazi holocaust records.

www.brusselsjournal.com...

Originally posted by shakespear1

Check out Edwin Black's book "War against the weak"

The Eugenical News, official journal of the American Eugenics Research Association, openly praised Nazi Jewish policies even as blitzkrieg raged. Lest anyone think it an isolated moment in American history, Black proposes that eugenics lives on in new forms. Instead of the term eugenics, with its incendiary associations, the preferred label is now the more neutral "human genetics."

The American eugenics movement, an outgrowth of paranoia of the mass immigration to the US, had a certain following, as did many aberrant belief systems in the early 20th Century.

Significantly the US government, the medical field, the nascent psychiatric field, intellectuals and academics, resoundingly rejected the largely trumped up findings of eugenics advocates.

Eugenecists may have opposed inter-racial marriages, and made extravagant claims about certain types of people, but they did not lobby for the extermination of men, women, and children. I doubt there is an example of a eugenecist ever murdering someone because of their race.

Many consider this perpetual rummaging through the trash bins of Western culture to pervert recorded history with foaming at the mouth attempts to prove that Jews lied about the Holocaust a sickness in itself.




[edit on 7-1-2010 by mmiichael]

i have a theory regarding this whole issue and the opinions that people have about it,

i feel that some of the people who find it hard to believe that it happened is not because of antisemitism, but a disbelief in the level of evil that the human race is capable of, so they shouldnt always be condemned for thinking like this, but comended for their faith in the goodness that does exist in some sectors of society,

i also feel that the holocaust happened, but along with many events in history it has been used for an agenda, i think that israel eventually being established after decades of attempts was because of the results of the holocaust, it makes me feel sad that a quarter of a million people died in a blink of an eye in the recent tsunami and probably more in iraq and afganistan, but these figures are ignored or atleast not played upon as much as the holocaust,

i think it is disbelief on many levels that fuels the fires of all of these issues that along with denial

maybe also the people who feel that they must question the ESTIMATED number of jewish people who died at the hands of the germans are not willing to have a million people reduced to the level of an estimation or a statistic, life may be more important and precious to them, unfortunately, the sheer volume of people who died as a result of the second world war will only ever be an estimation, and very hard to come to terms with, but all should be remembered not just exclusive groups who campaign, suppress and accuse

[edit on 7-1-2010 by THELONIO]

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by Sharrow

 

Since we don't learn from our mistakes,we are doomed to repeat them.

As people have been doing for the last 30 years in the middle east.

whether the claims can be proven or not , hitler and his regime still killed thousands of people through hard labour or death camps and war !

regardless of whether they were jews , they were people !

and that itself is wrong .


we dont need to prove it , why do we need to prove it ?

lets just remember that it happened and we dont want it happening again,

although we still let it happen under the guise of something else

Originally posted by THELONIO
i have a theory regarding this whole issue and the opinions that people have about it,

i feel that some of the people who find it hard to believe that it happened is not because of antisemitism, but a disbelief in the level of evil that the human race is capable of, so they shouldnt always be condemned for thinking like this, but comended for their faith in the goodness that does exist in some sectors of society,

i also feel that the holocaust happened, but along with many events in history it has been used for an agenda, i think that israel eventually being established after decades of attempts was because of the results of the holocaust

The British took control of much of the Middle East including the Sinai Peninsula after WWI. The first formal petition to create a future Jewish state adjacent to Jerusalem where there already was a large Hebrew population, was in 1921.

There were no Nazis until 1932. But as soon as there were and when they announced Jewish elimination, Al Husseini the British appointed GrandMmufti of Jerusalem and regional Muslim authorit was off to Berlin and working for the Nazis on anti-Jewish propaganda, promoting his pet project an extension of the European program of death camps in the Middle East.

The British divested their colonial holdings after WWII, and a number of new countries were created in the late 40s such as Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Kuwait, at al. Israel was one of the smallest, and even then had to fight against protesting Arab states for a strip of land equal to 1% of the underpopulated Middle East. A place where Jews had been emigrating to and buying land at exorbitant prices from Arab owners for decades. The Jews cleared the land, irrigatedm farmed, created an active economy attracting itinerant Arabs from the entire region by paying 5 times to going rate for unskilled labour.

The country was not a consolation prize for the Holocaust which happened many years after the initial British plans had been put forward.

Originally posted by DeathShield
They also love to ignore the fact that as the allies were invading the nazis were destroying as many documents as possible.

evidently, they didn't get much done!
Revisiting The Horrors Of The Holocaust
Millions Of Nazi Documents Are Being Made Available To The Public

a few excerpts:

The storerooms are immense: 16 miles of shelves holding the stories of 17 million victims – not only Jews, but slave laborers, political prisoners and homosexuals. To open the files is to see the Holocaust staring back like it was yesterday: strange pink Gestapo arrest warrants as lethal as a death sentence, jewelry lost as freedom ended at the gates of an extermination camp. Time stopped here in 1945.

(...)

But most of the names here are of unknown people. While the Nazis did not write down the names of those executed in the gas chambers at places like Auschwitz, they did keep detailed records of millions of others who died in the camps. Their names are listed in notebooks labeled “Totenbuch,” which means “death book.” The names are written here, single-spaced, in meticulous handwriting.

(...)

The devil is in the details - the smallest details. Pelley and the 60 Minutes crew were amazed to see the Nazis kept records of head lice.

"You can see the names and numbers of each prisoner, and the amount of lice that were found," Jost says.

The Nazis couldn’t have disease spreading among slave laborers. "You can see he was a perfectionist. He even put down the size of the lice. Large, small or medium-sized lice," Jost comments about the Nazi lice inspector.

more claims without substantiation:
the Nazi's kept records of everything except the names of those who were executed in the gas chambers?

right

In fact as recently as 2005, Belgian officials destroyed nazi holocaust records.

www.brusselsjournal.com...

did you even read your link?
it starts off with:

The Belgian authorities have destroyed archives and records relating to the persecution and deportation of Jews in Belgium in the 1930s and 1940s.

it isn't about Nazi's, at all!!
:shk:


and IN FACT, read further down:

Records relating to the so-called “phantom trains” have also disappeared. The “phantom trains” were convoys of “unpatriotic” Belgians, such as Flemish-Nationalists and Communists, and non-Belgian citizens, most of them Jewish fugitives from Germany and Poland. They were arrested by the Belgian authorities at the beginning of the war and deported to France.

Thousands of Jewish families had fled to Belgium in the late 1930s. They had not been welcome. After the German annexation of Austria in March 1938, Charles du Bus de Warnaffe, the then Belgian Minister of Justice, ordered the Belgian embassy in Vienna to deny visas to Jews. The Minister, a Walloon member of the Catholic Party, opined in the Belgian Parliament (22 Nov. 1938) that the Jews had “for centuries constituted a problem in Europe.” In an article he called them an “extremely unreliable” people; “they have no word of honour and do not keep it.” Charles du Bus de Warnaffe became Minister of Justice again after the war, and gave the death penalty to Flemish-Nationalists who had fought with the Germans on the Eastern Front.

puh-lease!

reply to post by mmiichael


i never said that it was a consolation prize, but i bet the holocaust went a huge way towards the formation of a nation based on a religion, the land that the league of nations used for the formation of israel did belong to people, it was not just a scrap of wasteland, it was not a small decision to change borders and form new nations, it had many factors regarding its creation.

i hope that that was not the only thing that was taken from what i posted otherwise i am wasting my breath

there are many more sources available, online:

JewishGen's Holocaust Database

Soldier, Veteran & Prisoner Rolls & Lists at Ancestry.com

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Name Lists Catalog Search

a few examples of records available at The National Archives:

Records of Allied Operational and Occupation Headquarters, World War II
Records of United States Army, Europe
National Archives Collection of World War II War Crimes Records