Only one percent of the Holocaust claims can be proven - Says Holocaust Scholar and Expert

Originally posted by sc2099
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

That is a great post and it is worth a star from me.

I appreciate your explanation based on facts and context rather than sensationalism and hearsay.

Thanks friend, the truth is that hardly anyone from the World War II era is still alive today. No one on these forums is responsible for the events that took place or played a hand in them.

We should be able to discuss them and debate them civilly and respectfully without the emotional dogmas so we can in fact learn history’s most important lessons with an eye towards avoiding the cyclical traps that result from not learning history’s lessons.

When you get right down to it humankind has evolved leaps and bounds when it comes to technology but hardly at all when it comes to creating and maintaining societies devoid of war and persecution and man’s inhumanity to man.

In part that is because we don’t learn history’s lessons very well which is in part due to the victors rewriting it to their own ends and in ways that make it seem emotionally inviolate.

Ultimately given enough time and distance from events we just end up repeating them over and over again because we never really know the real cause of such things and how to avoid those traps so as to not do them again.

When people take the sensationalism out of it meant to enflame emotions and passions it gets easier to look back at the very real evidence left behind and decipher it for what it is and learn those lessons.

Thanks for posting.

reply to post by Night Star

Night Star,
No one is denying that the holocaust happened. There is merely an attempt to better understand what exactly happened. There is no argument that a great many Jewish people died.
Perhaps we will meet up on another "atrocities" thread, say, the utter destruction of Native American tribes...
If we can find one, that is.

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by sezsue
it's that there have been quite a few books and testimonials about the holocaust experiences that have been proven to be fabricated over the years.

Very true, that is what the holocaust deniers do all the time, including people like David Irving

What, prove that certain holocaust books have been made up?

And why did you bring up David Irving anyway? I didn't mention him, so why did you? It has nothing to do with what I said.

God Bless
sezsue

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Just thought these might interest you folks. It is a talk on history research by writer David Irving.

Someone uses David Irving talking on history as a source?

One of the saddest things I have seen here

" Irving has for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence; that for the same reasons he has portrayed Hitler in an unwarrantedly favourable light, principally in relation to his attitude towards and responsibility for the treatment of the Jews; that he is an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racist, and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism"
www.hdot.org...

also "Furthermore, "the allegation that Irving is a racist is also established.""

Also "Evans' report was the most comprehensive, in-depth examination of Irving's work:
“ Not one of [Irving's] books, speeches or articles, not one paragraph, not one sentence in any of them, can be taken on trust as an accurate representation of its historical subject. All of them are completely worthless as history, because Irving cannot be trusted anywhere, in any of them, to give a reliable account of what he is talking or writing about. ... if we mean by historian someone who is concerned to discover the truth about the past, and to give as accurate a representation of it as possible, then Irving is not a historian."

So do not believe anything David Irving has written

Absolutely fascinating! Excellent post! Learned something new today so it was a very good day!


It answered some questions and brought up some others.

After reading Mein Kampf, I understood that Hitler didnt so much hate the jews as he did the socialist (and anti-german) influx they seemed to exibit. I need to read this again.

The cooperation with the zionist's was, well, weird. It was a way to get the issue of "non-christian" germans out without "ugly" means.

Some of it just seems too strange to be true. I followed some of the links

www.ihr.org...

Its seems that the jews WERE infiltrated (much like our government) for their own ends. The enemy within?


[Shortly thereafter, Jacob de Haan, a former distinguished Dutch diplomat who was then leader of Agudath Israel in Palestine, initiated talks with Arab leaders with a view toward the eventual establishments of a state there in which Jews and Arabs would have equal rights. In this way he hoped to forestall the creation of a Zionist state. Despite threats to his life, de Haan, fully aware of the ultimate dangers of a Zionist state, continued his talks and negotiations. On the eve of his departure in 1924 for Britain to meet with authorities there, he was assassinated by the Haganah, the Zionist paramilitary force, in the center of Jerusalem as he came from evening prayers. More than a half a century ago, this devout and visionary Jew gave his life in a fight that he considered paramount, at a time when the world at large was still blind and deaf to the difficulties and problems that a future Zionist state would entail.]
www.jewsnotzionists.org...

[It was a man possessing outstanding Judaic genius, and a level of uncontested holiness who enunciated the Jewish stance regarding Zionism. This charismatic individual, the Rebbe of Satmar, Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, did not mince any words. Straight to the point he called Zionism "the work of Satan", "a sacrilege" and "a blasphemy". He forbade any participation with anything even remotely associated with Zionism and said that Zionism was bound to call the wrath of G-d upon His people. ]
www.jewsnotzionists.org...

This would also play into the allied hope for the final destruction of Germany, once and for all.

I've rarely met a jew I didnt like. I used to do service work in the North Dallas area. The area between i635 on the north and the Park Cities to the south were covered in jews. Most were very open and extremely hospitible. The old ladies were a hoot!

This always perplex's me when contrasted by the New York jews (Shumer, Feinstein, ect.) that were the total antithesis of this.

Zionists?

I'll be doing some more study on this.

A BIG S AND F!

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by Sharrow

 

Since we don't learn from our mistakes,we are doomed to repeat them.

Hey mambeth!

You sure got that right... I mean... look at what's happening in Palestine!

I've always been rather neutral as far as the holocaust goes... but here's the reality of the situation:

Is it possible all those jews and other nationalities were executed? Yep!
Is it possible there's been some exaggerations and fudging of the figures? Yep!
Is history always written by the victors? Definitely!

So I don't care to make any assumptions, and I tend not to fully believe either side of the story. Agenda's are rife in both.

Peace,
InfraRedMan

[edit on 6/1/10 by InfaRedMan]

So where are these palestinian death camps where palestinians are being exterminated en masse that i hear so much about?

reply to post by Stewie


No. How would I hate Jews if I am against them being wiped out? Here's the fact. In 2009, and still in 2010, when you say you want to wipe a group out, be it government or people, it is called genocide and extermination. That's what I'm against. killing off people. Even the worst government in the world has innocents working for it who have valued life. If you don't like a government, you pressure it to change, you do not exterminate it. Not in the 21st century.

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by Sharrow

 

When the last survivor and the last witness dies,I'm sure there will be
a celebration.Then the job of completely denying the holocaust will
continue,until it is thought of as a fairy tale.
Since we don't learn from our mistakes,we are doomed to repeat them.

i agree

there is a difference between it being impossible for us to prove something with hard evidence and us not having at least a pretty decent idea of what was happening. we've heard testimony from jews who were there, from the allies who freed them, we have photos from inside, we have explored their camps since shutting them down, seen their methods of slavery and murder. whether the number of 6 million dead jews was an over-estimation and it turned out there were *only* 3 million killed do you really think that's suddenly painting a different story of the holocaust which makes this whole thing a terrible conspiracy? i for one am somewhat disturbed by the way in which so many people will desperately look for any way possible to undermine the 'official story' so to speak. we do KNOW that the enslavement and mass murder of the jews happened on a monumental scale unless of course all those who saw it and lived through it have been lying (i won't even waste my time with that possibility). so frankly who really cares if the estimations of numbers aren't totally accurate? rather than taking such glee in the possibility that *not quite as many* jews were horrifically sent to their deaths, why not stop to consider how much difference does it make if the estimations aren't 100% right? even if they are only 50% right we are still looking at one of the great tragic events in modern human history. by casting so much scrutiny and desperately looking to find small inconsistencies or some misjudged calculations on an event which we know is for the most part clearly true it only serves to undermine the credibility of the whole thing and gives power to those appalling creatures like nick griffin to lie and cast doubt on the whole thing as the holocaust begins to move out of living memory. all that does is give more power to the disgusting agenda of neo nazis like griffin and that is what we should be more concerned with. i have lost two members of my family to the holocaust, that is quite enough for me.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by Renegade Bison]

Only about 200,000 so called Jews died in the Holocaust.

Holocaust was just a scam to make the World feel sorry for the so called Jews and to put them in Israel, what they did was "stage" Biblical prophecy to make everyone believe their lie about them being the Biblical Israelites.

So called Jews are pretty much Christians in the sense that they believe they are some how spiritually Biblical Israelites by just converting, the Jews just had enough money to stage it.
(elite Jews actually do worship Satin and admit it)

First, some information on TYPHUS, since in these days of antibiotics and better hygiene in living conditions, little is known or understood about this deadly pestilence:

an overview, from wiki:

During World War I typhus caused three million deaths in Russia and more in Poland and Romania.[6] De-lousing stations were established for troops on the Western front but the disease ravaged the armies of the Eastern front, with over 150,000 dying in Serbia alone. Fatalities were generally between 10 to 40 percent of those infected, and the disease was a major cause of death for those nursing the sick. Between 1918 and 1922 typhus caused at least 3 million deaths out of 20–30 million cases. In Russia after World War I, during the civil war between the White and Red armies, typhus killed three million, largely civilians. Even larger epidemics in the post-war chaos of Europe were only averted by the widespread use of the newly discovered DDT to kill the lice on millions of refugees and displaced persons.

Typhus epidemics killed inmates in the Nazi Germany concentration camps; infamous pictures of typhus victims' mass graves can be seen in footage shot at Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. Thousands of prisoners were held in unsuitable hygiene conditions in Nazi concentration camps such Theresienstadt and Bergen-Belsen also died of typhus during World War II, including Anne Frank at the age of 15 and her sister Margot.

(note: before the end of WWII, the only pesticide known to work on lice was hydracyanic acid, or Zyklon-B)

further down on that same wiki page:

Without treatment the disease can be fatal, particularly the epidemic form. Prompt treatment with antibiotics cures nearly every patient.

• Doxycyclin:
  Doxycycline is a semi-synthetic tetracycline invented and clinically developed in the early 1960s by Pfizer Inc. and marketed under the brand name Vibramycin. Vibramycin received U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval in 1967, becoming Pfizer's first once-a-day broad-spectrum antibiotic.
  
• Tetracycline:
  The tetracyclines are a large family of antibiotics that were discovered as natural products by Benjamin Minge Duggar and first described in 1948.
  
• Chloramphenicol (less common):
  Chloramphenicol was originally derived from the bacterium Streptomyces venezuelae, isolated by David Gottlieb, and introduced into clinical practice in 1949, under the trade name Chloromycetin. It was the first antibiotic to be manufactured synthetically on a large scale.

(note: there was no treatment of the actual disease until these antibiotics were discovered and developed, all of which came after the end of WWII)

from the CDC:

Epidemic typhus occurs in communities and populations where body lice are prevalent. Outbreaks have often been tied to periods of war, poverty, and natural disasters, especially during the colder months when infested clothing is not laundered.

also, it is very serious:

While many rickettsial diseases cause mild or moderate illness, epidemic typhus and RMSF can be quite severe and may be fatal in 20%–60% of untreated cases.

from another CDC page, on Body Lice:

Epidemiology & Risk Factors

Body lice infestation is found worldwide but generally is limited to persons who live under conditions of crowding and poor hygiene who do not have access to regular bathing and changes of clean clothes, such as:

• the homeless,
  
• refugees,
  
• victims of war or natural disasters.

and:

Infestations can spread rapidly under such conditions. Body lice infestation can occur in people of all races.

Body lice are spread through direct contact with a person who has body lice or through contact with articles such as clothing, beds, bed linens, or towels that have been in contact with an infested person. However, in the United States, actual infestation with body lice tends to be occur only in homeless, transient persons who do not have access to regular bathing and changes of clean clothes.

Body lice can transmit disease. Epidemics of typhus and louse-borne relapsing fever have been caused by body lice (typically in areas where climate, poverty, and social customs or war and social upheaval prevent regular changes and laundering of clothing).

and:

Body lice are spread most commonly by direct contact with an infested person or an infested person’s clothing or bedding. Body lice usually infest persons who do not change launder and change their clothes regularly.

describing the setting of the issue under discussion perfectly!

and, finally, from Typhus: Essential Data:

Should epidemic typhus become established in a community, it usually takes about three years to run a complete epidemic cycle.

i found a source (that i will cite in my next post since this one is long enough) that said Typhus first broke out in the German camps in 1942. By 1945, when the war was over, the epidemic had nearly run its full course.

(continued...)

(continued from above)

High Frequency Delousing Facilities at Auschwitz

Typhus Danger

Before dealing directly with the high frequency delousing facilities, it is important to understand the general problem of disease, especially typhus, during the war, and the measures taken by the German authorities -- particularly at Auschwitz -- to combat the deadly scourges.

Typhus or "spotted fever" (German: Fleckfieber) is transmitted from one diseased person to another by lice infected with a micro-organism (Rickettsia prowazeki). Epidemic typhus flourishes among people in crowded living quarters, including ships, prisons, camps and ghettos, where poor sanitary conditions and bad hygiene prevail.

During the First World War (1914-1918), and even more in the years immediately following, some 25-30 million people in Poland, Ukraine, Russia and the Baltic suffered from typhus, or about 20-23 percent of the total population, of whom several million perished. "At the close of World War I," the Encyclopaedia Britannica has noted, "the disease was prevalent in Poland, Russia and Rumania, where estimates of cases and deaths between 1919 and 1923 ran into millions. In World War II from these areas it spread again into western Europe and caused devastating epidemics among refugees and displaced persons, particularly in the German concentration camps."note 5 So terrible was the scourge in Poland that the United States dispatched a US Army team to the country, where it carried out extensive efforts to combat typhus among the civilian population, 1919-1921.

When war broke out in Europe in 1939, German medical and military leaders were mindful of the terrible impact of typhus during the earlier conflict, and acted accordingly. At the outset of the Second World War, the most advanced method used to kill typhus-carrying lice was "Zyklon B." This was the trade name of a pest control agent manufactured from the 1920s to the 1950s by the Degesch company of Frankfurt am Main. "Zyklon" is hydrocyanic or "Prussic" acid (HCN) absorbed in a porous material such as gypsum or diatomaceous earth, which is kept in tightly sealed cans until it is deployed by trained personnel. HCN's boiling point is 26 degrees C (79 F).

This commercially available pesticide was widely used before, during and after the Second World War by private companies, governmental agencies and military forces throughout Europe. It was frequently used by the German armed forces, including the SS, to delouse clothing and other effects, and to kill insects and rodents in buildings.

note that during WWI, Poland, Russia and Romania all had major typhus epidemics; Poland and Romania had many people sent to the camps of WWII - especially Poland.

of special interest is the section headed "Combatting Typhus at Auschwitz" the following is just an excerpt from that section, please follow the link above and read it all!
(and the author DOES cite his sources at the bottom)

When typhus broke out in the Auschwitz camp for the first time in the summer of 1942, the German authorities there responded resolutely. In an effort to halt the disease, Commandant Rudolf Höss ordered a full-scale quarantine (vollständige Lagersperre) of the camp in July 1942. SS men and their families were not allowed to leave the camp area. As the epidemic continued to spread, Höss ordered further measures, including delousing actions with Zyklon, a prohibition against SS men and their families eating uncooked fruits and vegetables, disinfections of living quarters, obligatory vaccinations, and further restrictions on movement. Special "louse inspection" units were organized, and those who failed to observe the anti-lice measures were punished.

(…)

The central WVHA office in Berlin-Oranienburg, which was responsible for the SS concentration camp system, sent a secret directive on December 28, 1942, to every concentration camp, including Auschwitz and Majdanek (Lublin). After sharply criticizing the high death rate, it ordered that camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly reduce the death rate in the various camps.... The camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the nutrition of the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit improvement recommendations to the camp commandants.... The camp doctors are to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor places are improved as much as possible.

The directive concluded: "The Reichsführer SS [Himmler] has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced."

I went back and read some of the earlier posts.

MAN, THIS THING IS UP TO 19!!!

An old polish friend of mine that was a kid during the German occupation of Poland, was in Buchenwald for a while before he escaped.

He's told me stories of working fields for food and such but NEVER mentioned anything about any killing, gassing, burning or the like. Didnt seem to mind telling me about it. Not to say it was good experience.

He joined up with resistance, went to france, got in the french military and (later) went to Vietnam during the last of the French colonial days.

He refused to speak much about that experience. He was visibly shaken by that.

Really never thought about it till now.

NOW, let’s talk about GAS CHAMBERS and the associated use of hydracyanic acid/Zyklon-B pellets for the purpose of causing death in humans:


from
Death Penalty Information Center:

In 1924, the use of cyanide gas was introduced as Nevada sought a more humane way of executing its inmates. Gee Jon was the first person executed by lethal gas. The state tried to pump cyanide gas into Jon's cell while he slept. This proved impossible because the gas leaked from his cell, so the gas chamber was constructed.

"At first there is evidence of extreme horror, pain, and strangling. The eyes pop. The skin turns purple and the victim begins to drool." (Weisberg, 1991) Caryl Chessman, before he died in California's gas chamber in 1960 told reporters that he would nod his head if it hurt. Witnesses said he nodded his head for several minutes. (Ecenbarger, 1994) According to Dr. Richard Traystman of John Hopkins University School of Medicine, "The person is unquestionably experiencing pain and extreme anxiety...The sensation is similar to the pain felt by a person during a heart attack, where essentially the heart is being deprived of oxygen." The inmate dies from hypoxia, the cutting-off of oxygen to the brain. (Weisberg, 1991) At postmortem, an exhaust fan sucks the poison air out of the chamber, and the corpse is sprayed with ammonia to neutralize any remaining traces of cyanide. About a half an hour later, oderlies enter the chamber, wearing gas masks and rubber gloves. Their training manual advises them to ruffle the victim's hair to release any trapped cyanide gas before removing the deceased. (Weisberg, 1991)

from capitalpunishmentuk.org:

For reasons of humanity, safety and cost, most states have now abandoned gassing. Most of America's gas chambers were built in the 1920's by Eaton Metal Products of Salt Lake City, Utah and are all getting very old. The seals have hardened and are liable to leak. Meticulous maintenance of the chamber is therefore vital, as a leak could have fatal consequences to staff and witnesses. It is estimated that to build a new gas chamber would cost at least $300,000 and this cannot be justified when set against the cost of the equipment required for lethal injection.

from Zyklon B and the German Delousing Chambers:

TODAY AT THE FORMER German concentration camp at Dachau, it is no longer claimed that Jews or anyone else were ever killed in the gas chamber there. In the room that is supposedly a gas chamber, one can clearly read a sign written by the museum authorities in five languages which says, "THE GAS CHAMBER disguised as a 'shower room'-never used as a gas chamber." [1] Although the room was completed in 1942, it was never used for its intended purpose-presumably, it was used for other purposes; perhaps it was used as a shower room after all.

At the western end of the crematorium building which houses the so-called gas chamber "disguised as a shower room," one can today see and walk through four delousing chambers which were used to fumigate clothing. [2] The only explanation regarding these chambers is a sign above them, also in five languages, which simply says "Fumigation cubicles" in English and Desinfektionskammern in German. There is no mention anywhere within the camp of the important fact that these chambers used Zyklon-B to fumigate clothing as well as other articles placed within the chambers.

The "shower room" is not a gas chamber at all, but the so-called "fumigation cubicles" are gas chambers. Moreover, the "fumigation cubicles " are extremely well-designed gas chambers which represented, and may still represent, the state of the art in gas chamber design. They were the product of more than 20 years of research and development into the application of hydrocyanic acid (often referred to simply as cyanide) for the extermination of vermin. This is clearly shown by the extensive German technical literature from the end of World War I through World War II on this subject. [3]

The delousing chambers at Dachau were far superior in design to the gas chambers which are still used in this country for the execution of criminals. As a consequence of their design, the operating procedures for the delousing chambers at Dachau were quite simple; for example, although gas masks had to be available, the operators were only required to use them in emergencies or in special situations. By contrast, the American gas chambers for executions still require the use of gas masks during the normal post-execution procedures. Compared to the American gas chambers, the German delousing chambers at Dachau were also safer to operate and far less expensive to construct. [4]

At the end of this article I have added a translation of one of the many articles that can be found in the German wartime technical and medical literature discussing the proper use of Zyklon-B for the control of typhus through the extermination of its principal carrier, the body louse. (See appendix.) The article by Emil Wustinger is especially important because of the numbers it gives to show the extent to which the Zyklon-B delousing technology was actually used by the Germans to save people from the ravages of typhus. According to Wustinger, 25 million people had already had their clothing and personal belongings fumigated from the start of the war until the beginning of 1944. This number is, interestingly enough, the same as the one which appears in the Gerstein statement as the number of people who had been "killed" in gas chambers.

from historyplace.com:
(see link for picture mentioned below)

The containers above hold Zyklon-B pellets (hydrocyanic acid) that vaporize when exposed to air. Originally intended for commercial use as a disinfectant and an insecticide, the Nazis discovered through experimentation the gas could be used to kill humans.

The brand of Zyklon-B used by the Nazis contained substances which gave the pellets a blue appearance and left blue stains inside gas chambers which can still be seen today in chambers that were left intact.

During the killing process, prisoners at Auschwitz and other killing centers were forced into the air-tight chambers that had been disguised by the Nazis to look like shower rooms. The Zyklon pellets were then dumped into the chambers via special air shafts or openings in the ceiling.

The pellets would then vaporize, giving off a noticeable bitter almond odor. Upon being breathed in, the vapors combined with red blood cells, depriving the human body of vital oxygen, causing unconsciousness, and then death through oxygen starvation.

from OSHA:

2. Effects on Humans: Hydrogen cyanide can cause rapid death due to metabolic asphyxiation. Death can occur within seconds or minutes of the inhalation of high concentrations of hydrogen cyanide gas. A recent study reports an estimated LC(50) in humans of 3,404 ppm for a 1-minute exposure; other sources report that 270 ppm is fatal after 6 to 8 minutes, 181 ppm after 10 minutes and 135 ppm after 30 minutes [Hathaway et al. 1991].

(…)

1. Conditions contributing to instability: Explosive hazards can occur on exposure to air, sources of ignition, including heat (polymerizes explosively at 50-60degreesC), or open flame; and when stored for long periods of time.

(note 55 degrees C is = 131 degrees F)

from judicial-inc.biz:

The rooms the Jews claim were gas chambers, had none of this equipment. The floors had drain vents that connected through out the camp (Everyone in the camp would die). There was no circulating air systems, or heaters, to vaporize the Zyklon-B.

There were no sealed doors The gas becomes explosive after vaporization, and there were furnaces 20’ away. Cyanide gas is blue and impregnates the walls - the delousing chambers were blue - the Jewish gas chambers weren't blue, and had no traces of gas in the brick

Opening a can does nothing - in order to become gas the pellets must be heated


Gas Is A Complicated Process

First the chamber must have a positive inside vacuum, to prevent a leak. The gas pellet is dropped into a canister of sulfuric acid, and that activates it. The prisoner dies in a few minutes, and then ammonia is introduced to detoxify the gas. Next the chamber is vented to a chimney. Then the entire chamber, and the prisoner, are scrubbed down with ammonia.

Today, states use lethal injection, because gassing is too dangerous.

(continued...)

(continued)

The following linked-to page also talks about the crematorium ovens, with facts and figures at the bottom of the page; which should be closely examined and considered:

The Ovens Couldn't Accommodate Auschwitz Number Of 4,000,000

Ovens need constant rebuilding. A crematorium is 'Refractory Bricks' on the inside, and regular brick on the outside, and it must be rebuilt every 1500 hours.

(for more technical details (many, many details), see this page, at nizkor.org)

here’s somewhat of a shocker, that i intend on looking into further, from Auschwitz Museum Director Reveals 'Gas Chamber' Hoax:

In a dramatic and unprecedented videotaped interview, Dr. Franciszek Piper, senior curator and director of archives of the Auschwitz State Museum admitted on camera that 'Krema 1,' the alleged 'homicidal gas chamber' shown off to hundreds of thousands of tourists every year at the Auschwitz main camp, was, in fact, fabricated after the war by the Soviet Union -apparently on the direct orders of Josef Stalin.

What Piper said - in effect and on camera - was that the explosive 1988 Leuchter Report was correct: no homicidal gassings took place in the buildings designated as 'homicidal gas chambers' at Auschwitz.

With this admission by none other than the respected head of the Auschwitz State Museum, one of the most sacred 'facts' of history has been destroyed. This 'gas chamber' is the major historical 'fact' on which much of the foreign and domestic policies of all Western nations since WWII are based.

i found holes in this article: nizkor.org

Ironically, this policy of not showing extermination-related facilities is also confirmed by the IHR itself, though unwittingly. In the "Lüftl Report," supposed expert Walter Lüftl mentions a memo to the commandants of the concentration camps. According to Lüftl, it reads:

The bordello and the crematories are not to be shown during camp visits. These installations are not to be mentioned to persons visiting the camp...

Lüftl goes on to comment:

Apparently, then, everything else could be shown and mentioned to visitors. Logically, then, a gas chamber, if one existed, could be shown and talked about; otherwise, it would have been included in the prohibition.

Since we cannot assume that the SS ever showed a [homicidal] gas chamber to the inspectors of the International Red Cross, it is permissible to conclude that none existed.

Lüftl, who is supposedly an expert, is not even aware that the term "crematories" refers to the cremation complexes, which also housed not only the ovens but also the gas chambers.

holes:

#1 "the bordello and crematoriums" have NOTHING to do with human extermination - a bordello is a house of prostitution and there were indeed bordellos in some of the camps, according to some personal accounts i also ran across in my search.
(which i found interesting in and of itself)

#2 if the gas chambers were in the same building as the ovens, there would have been an inevitable disaster since Zylon-B is explosive when it is heated only to 131 F.

remember, in my previous post, i cited from OSHA the conditions contributing to instability of hydracyanic acid/Zyklon-B include:

Explosive hazards can occur on exposure to air, sources of ignition, including heat (polymerizes explosively at 50-60degreesC), or open flame; and when stored for long periods of time.

and, remember, 55 C is = 131 F

wiki on cremation says that 700 C or 1400 F has been proven scientifically to be the optimum temperature required for cremation of a human body.

but according to crematoriumequipment.com:

The modern day cremation furnace can reach high temperatures (from 870 to 980°C) and they run on electricity, gas or fuel (unlike before when the standard fuel was coal).

coal combustion temperatures, according to engineeringtoolbox.com:

The Auto-Ignition Temperature - or the minimum temperature required to ignite a gas or vapor in air without a spark or flame being present - are indicated for some common fuels below:
Bituminous coal - 572 F
(…)
Coal-tar oil - 1076 F
Coke - 1292 F
(…)
Semi anthracite coal - 752 F

there could NOT have been crematoriums and gas-chambers in the same building; or probably even in very close proximity, considering how much heat surely radiated from the cremation ovens.

Nazis and Nazettes

For your dubious pleasure

Dedicated to the OP, et al, for the most fantastical fabulous homo erotic penile envious solipsistic orgy of moronic wannabe blabbermouth deluded maundering drooling revisionists that are despicably uncalled for, humiliating unspeakable insults to any and every conceivable, and inconceivable concept a not under cryogenic suspension air breathing non comatose rational human being could ever possibly hope to begin to consider articulating.



Ziggy

reply to post by queenannie38


All of this doesn't remove that:

A.) forcing people into camps is wrong
B.) people died, and Germans admitted it
C.) the countless facts that people were tortured for scientific progress
D.) Germans, like all major governments at the time, were interested in eugenics and biological control and application in war.

As a matter of fact, I'd trust the testimonies of thousands of soldiers on all sides, and millions of people for more than any government agency or historic researchers.

Remember where you are. Since when is what officials claim taken as truth over testimonies on this site?

[edit on 7-1-2010 by Gorman91]

If only 1% of ATSers are geniuses, does that make 99% retards? I guess you'd say yes. Please learn some rules of evidence, logic and deduction before you post again.


"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

This post began with a claim that a holocaust scholar stated in an article that "99%" of the claims about the holocaust could not be proven.

The author's statement has been intentionally misinterpreted to spark debate about a non-issue among sensible people.

The author was talking about a simple fact of history, that physical evidence of this or that event in history will inevitably be lost to natural decay, and that this is no reason for us to doubt what we know about the past, or needlessly preserve relics of the past as a reminder. This was part of the larger theme of the article, the decaying holocaust sites in Europe, and what to do about preservation. His point was about letting go of the physical remains of the past, not questioning the truth of the events of the past.

It is embarrassing to see how an ignorant statement about a mundane article (that apparently nobody bothered to read) can spawn such absurdity.

If the Nazi's weren't the bad guys in WWII, what do you think that makes us? Why don't you think about that, and about your motivation, all you "truth seekers"?

Originally posted by John_Brown
If the Nazi's weren't the bad guys in WWII, what do you think that makes us? Why don't you think about that, and about your motivation, all you "truth seekers"?

the Nazi's weren't the only bad guys, and they weren't all bad, surely

EVERYONE that participates in a war does "bad" things
there are "bad" people everywhere, on every side of the battle

i just think that history has been horribly skewed in regard to WWII for the sake of STICKING TO THE ORIGINAL STORY:
"blame it all on the dead guys who lost"