Why do reborn Christians regard all "spirits" as demons?

reply to post by halfoldman

1/2-Old,
Some thoughts.
--The NT refers to God having an audience.
--The NT refers to Satan and demons.
--Satan is described as the Prince of the power of the air.
--Jesus cast out demons many times; they knew who he was. Similar with apostles who drove out demons in His name.
--Jesus said His Father was/is from above and the Father of the Pharisses and Scribes was/is from"below", Satan, whom Jesus said "was a liar from the beginning".
--Asked a question re marriage in heaven, Jesus said there is no marriage just "as the angels in heaven."
--From the NT/OT we know that angels are messengers. Messengers do not act on their own.
--Rev in NT I believe I recall describes Satan's fall with 1/3 of the angels (fallen angels) to the Earth.
--The NT talks of deceiving wonders in the sky that may/will deceive many.

As a quick sum, these and other OT details mentioned by others and the Book of Enoch mentioned in the NT, but not part of the Bible, cause some to conclude the UFO/alien scenerio is a DECEPTION and that aliens are demons. Apologies if I have left out something significant.

reply to post by pumpkinorange

Thanks, that post answers a lot on current beliefs!
I'm still in the dark on some issues though.
Where does it state that ALL spirits are demons?
I mean why have two different terms if only one exists around us?

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by thisnamenotinuse

 

To your own and other posts: how does one know one is dealing with a demon, and not just a drink, one's own psychic ability or spirit?
I was very hurt on New Years and it dragged me into depression. I've been thinking about an equal measure of psychic revenge. Yeah I know it's wrong, blah, blah, but being a smallish gay man it's sometimes all that I have.

I can understand then the anger and depression you're feeling. Don't know if this was a stranger or not, but sometimes it seems the worst often comes from those we know and trust. I get it that you're just processing all this, wondering if it's demon-based, but I hope one option you'll consider is to turn your mind to things above and not below in pursuit of our worse instinct, which is to fight evil with evil. All the very best to you.

reply to post by pumpkinorange

Thank you for the kind words and intent.
Thinking - what if the aliens truly landed, and some Bible-bashers yelled at them: "Get ye hence, devils!"
That wouldn't be too cool either.

reply to post by halfoldman

1/2Old,
You mean like this verse?
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."
Ephesians 6:12

Originally posted by halfoldman
Somebody please explain why significant amounts of people believe in aliens and spirits, but only as "demons"?

I think you're starting off with an erroneous assumption... regarding "all spirits" as demons is something that I do not see very often, and I hobnob with lots of Christians, both on the Internet and in my daily routine.

The Christians that I know think of spirits and ghosts as intermediaries, in the same way we consider angels as messengers of God. Christianity is chock-full of ghosts and paranormal activity that we cannot attribute to Satan.

Dude. The Holy Ghost. It's the ghost with the most.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by pumpkinorange

 

Thanks, that post answers a lot on current beliefs!
I'm still in the dark on some issues though.
Where does it state that ALL spirits are demons?
I mean why have two different terms if only one exists around us?

Maybe I hear what you're asking...let me know. Jesus said he would "not leave us orphans" and was leaving behind the Comforter, (the Holy Spirit). The Holy Spirit being God (God in 3 persons). The only other "spirits" mentioned in the NT were demons.
Having said this, tho, John in the NT says:
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
1 John 4:1

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
[Christianity is chock-full of ghosts and paranormal activity that we cannot attribute to Satan.
Dude. The Holy Ghost. It's the ghost with the most.

Doc, my head is spinning dude like your avatar.
God says he's Spirit, not flesh. The Holy Ghost is God. (God the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.) But these personalities were never dead.
Demons are created beings (maybe fallen angels?)...

But what's the basis for thinking Christians believe in ghosts? (i.e. spirits of dead people?)

Edit to change typo "God" to Ghost"

[edit on 4-1-2010 by pumpkinorange]

My grandmother (now departed) was born in the early 20th Century, and she had some pretty cut-and-fried views on UFOS and all things paranormal. She thought it was the work of Satan on Earth, because Earth is Satan's domain. She believed God gave the Earth to Satan, so that Satan could tempt Man and draw him down to Hell, which is what Satan enjoys doing.

In her view, all of these unexplainable curiosities were the work of Satan. UFOs, Bigfoot, Chupacabra, Rods, Ghosts, Poltergeists, Clairvoyants, Spirit Mediums, Ouija Boards, you friggin' name it, it was the work of the Devil.

That is old world thinking. I mean, people who divide the world into good over here and evil over there are missing a lot.

The Christians I know have a realistic view of the Heavenly hierarchy, which includes a distinct assemblage of demons, angels and archangels... Any of whom have ready access to more data regarding our existence than do mere mortals.

Nice thread. I like these discussions.

— Doc Velocity

Anything foreign in nature to their narrow minded views becomes a demon, or demonic, or satanic. Any rational, common sense, or factual view or opinion that differs in anyway whatsoever than theirs is quickly (and lazily) labeled as such. If the earth was still considered to be flat, and the earth was still thought to be in the middle of the universe, and someone today came forward and spoke the truth (which is now common knowledge), he/she would be met with the demon/satanic label. No matter how credible this individual was and how devoted the person was to discovering the genuine honest truth, this poor individual would have to face the disgusting attitude of these sick close minded individuals who would sadly label him/her under this demon/satanic classification. One day science will force their narrow minded views to evolve, and they will no longer be able to consider everything and everyone to be satanic or demonic except THEMSELVES.


EDIT: Correction of a typo.



[edit on 4-1-2010 by pplrnuts]

reply to post by pplrnuts


How is science going to do that? Like I said in my very long post, last on page 2. Every time someone tries to get proof of ghosts or spirits, the spirits always run away and vanish from the researchers. Then after the researchers leave they continue their haunts.

If the spirits aren't evil then why don't they just tell us why they are here and if they're evil or not? Why don't they hang around and let the cameras and thermal cameras get pictures of them over and over again instead of running away?

If you've ever been on a ghost hunt, anytime you chase after a ghost they'll either disappear or run away. Sometimes you'll hear a ghost asking for help over and over again, but then when you run to where it was, it disappears and never tells you what it wants. But then when you leave it'll start asking for help again. Why?

Why do these "non-evil" spirits screw with researchers like that? Why do they even physically harm them sometimes? Why doesn't the ghost just explain all these questions instead of me having to answer them?

If you were a spirit and you were asking for help, would you dissipate when I got there, or would you just tell me why you were asking for help?

If the ghost is trying to hide from us because it doesn't want us to know about the spirit world, then why turn right around and scare people by haunting them and even harming them sometimes?

Perhaps they're just residual hauntings and have no control over it, that's true, but then it's not really a conscious spirit at all.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 4-1-2010 by tinfoilman]

Originally posted by pumpkinorange
But what's the basis for thinking Christians believe in ghosts? (i.e. spirits of dead people>)

We believe that there is a transfer of information through the veil. A communication, if you will, with entities and intelligences on the other side.

Christianity is FULL of such belief.

Call it ghostly visitation if you wish, call it angelic presence, but there is evidence and precedence for Christians believing in ghosts.

Look at Christ beckoning Lazarus back from the dead. That's a stunning example of Christ interacting with the paranormal, reaching beyond the veil between Life and Death, summoning a specific consciousness (that of Lazarus) back to his corporeal body, and somehow activating the biologic processes to allow Lazarus to not only be healed but be brought back from the friggin dead.

Lazarus was dead for days. I don't know if he had been embalmed (which wouldn't be unusual in his time and place), but his corpse had already gone through whatever funerary process was appropriate. His body had been bound with linen — think mummy, maybe.

That's pretty far gone. That's a long-shot for resuscitation, wouldn't you say? Yeah. A long longshot.

But Christ came in, he was very emotional about this, and he summoned Lazarus out of the tomb. Lazarus came out, he had no choice — he had been summoned by Christ.

This is a hardcore example of a dead person's spirit (ghost) reentering the body of a Man.

And, I mean, when Christ first appeared to Mary Magdalene after the Resurrection, she was talking to a ghost, was she not? Christ the Risen. Christ the Un-Dead. Christ himself was floating right through doors in good ghost tradition, right in front of the Apostles.

It's a very ghosty religion, this Christianity.

— Doc Velocity







[edit on 1/4/2010 by Doc Velocity]

Four hundred years after Christ's Crucifixion (which is not very long), a Christian called Nicholas of Myra was born and lived a life of piety and service (even though he came from a pretty rich family). He was considered a wonder-worker, and you can look that up under his name.

Nicholas was, interestingly, able to bi-locate. He could be in two places simultaneously.
That's a pretty phenomenal talent — usually attributed to our fictional superheroes — and Nicholas used his talent to consult with people at one location while he was being detained at another location.

Neat trick, aint it?

It also sounds very much like a ghostly trick.

In point of fact (and I mean documented by the Vatican fact), Nicholas continued manifesting as a ghost for centuries after his death; right up to the present, and you can google for apparitions of Saint Nicholas and find an extraordinary number of eyewitness accounts of St. Nicholas's appearances throughout history!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9b81a7537fc5.jpg[/atsimg]

This guy, Nicholas, the bi-locating Saint, has made so many ghostly appearances over the centuries, it borders on becoming something that Science can't afford to ignore.

I mean, cynics might think twice before pooh-poohing St. Nicholas. The fellow seems to be able to transcend time and space, appear in multiple locations simultaneously, and he spreads goodwill wherever he goes.

These are all verifiable facts.

So, I think the ghosty element of St. Nicholas is proof that Christians do indeed embrace ghosts not as demons but as Angels and Saints.



— Doc Velocity





[edit on 1/4/2010 by Doc Velocity]

reply to post by halfoldman

What is this "physical evidence"?

Dude if you're hearing voices in your head that are not your own and you have them on tape that goes somewhere toward persuading your shrink that you are not deluded and the voices are emanating from elsewhere.

Incidentally how in hell does one "Test a spirit" , do you ask the voice in your head some very tough personal questions only you would know the answer to?

Do you ask the spirit some tough questions in relation to it's intent ?

How do you know exactly if the disembodied voice you are hearing is telling the truth or lying ?

reply to post by Doc Velocity

I mean, cynics might think twice before pooh-poohing St. Nicholas. The fellow seems to be able to transcend time and space, appear in multiple locations simultaneously, and he spreads goodwill wherever he goes.

Ho, ho, ho

reply to post by moocowman


and a very Happy New Year!

— Doc Velocity

reply to post by thisnamenotinuse


The half angel half humans you are talking about are not in the bible but in the book of Enoch. The Watchers, and it says nothing about them living on earth in a spiritual form.

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
reply to post by thisnamenotinuse

 

The half angel half humans you are talking about are not in the bible but in the book of Enoch.

The hybrids are in the bible in lots of places...
...in Hebrew they are referred to as Nephyl or Rapha but always translated 'giants' in English...
...here is one example of many.

1 Chronicles 20:5-6 "And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staff was like a weaver's beam. 6 And yet again there was war at Gath, where was a man of great stature, whose fingers and toes were four and twenty, six on each hand, and six on each foot: and he also was the son of the giant (rapha)."

The Watchers, and it says nothing about them living on earth in a spiritual form.

The term 'Watcher' is only used a couple of times in the Aramaic sections of the Book of Daniel where they clearly refer to unfallen angelic beings.

In Genesis the fallen ones are referred to the 'Sons of God' (ben 'elohiym)...

Genesis 6:4 "There were giants (Nephyl) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God (ben 'elohiym) came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

This term is also used in Job to refer to Satan and those like him.

Job 1:6 "...there was a day when the sons of God (ben 'elohiym) came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

The Book of Enoch goes into much more detail but the same story is throughout the biblical manuscripts but sometimes lost in translation.



[edit on 4/1/10 by troubleshooter]

Originally posted by halfoldman
In the accepted Old Testament Saul encounters the dead via the "Witch of Endor". Some verses are more specific: Job 4:15, "Then a spirit passed my face; and the hair of my flesh stood up".
How, why or where does anyone get the message in the Bible that all spirits are "demons"?
Somebody please explain why significant amounts of people believe in aliens and spirits, but only as "demons"?

[edit on 3-1-2010 by halfoldman]

I think its an oversimplification.

You could say the same thing about angels. People run around thinking "angels" all look like humans. Biblically, of the heavenly beings, the Malakhim or messengers look human. The others look monstrous like the Cherubim or Seraphim. Some look really weird like light orbs (Hashmallim) and others like gimbals (Ophanim). Compare the last two to weird sightings of things in the sky.

Then you have other people who simplify fallen angels and demons into the same thing. Biblically there are different kinds of unclean spirits. The unclean part is key. Its not so much as they are evil, its that they are unclean. Something about their nature contaminates, almost like radiation. Some of these "demons" appear to be the same as some types of cryptids. One of them, the parasitical Ovoth, appears to be what most people think demons are. Like Malakhim being generic or stereotypical angels, the Ovoth are the "generic" demon. Most people have no idea about all the other kinds of "demons" and "angels".

Again its oversimplification.

Now some so called "demons", Biblically must be fallen "angels". These are your bound spirits or genius loci. They have been bound for trangressions. The scapegoat in the Bible was sent out to one, Azazel, on the Day of Atonement. For some reason people have a hard time distinguishing a bound "angel" which haunts a site, and Ovoth which acts as a parasite to a host.

Its probably oversimplification.

The dead in the Bible are said to sleep till Judgement Day. That throws out most ghost stuff, unless there is anything to restless dead. As far as I know there is no basis for it in the Bible. We are totally dependent on the Neshmat Hayyim or "Breath of Life" to live. Once it goes we sleep. I could probably come up with a hypothesis involving restless dead feeding on the "breath" of others, but there is no basis for that in the Bible.

There also is the Ruach, the vital anima or Holy Spirit. I think alot of people are confused by this and its worth a whole thread by itself.

So not all spirits are demons or unclean. Likewise I would say not all things called "aliens" are demons. Some definitely fit the description. If it lies, starts cults, gives false prophecies, and traumatises people there's a good chance its an unclean spirit or even an angel.

Which brings me to the last bit. Not all angels in the heavens are good or benevolent. Angels don't have to be fallen to be malevolent. In fact Biblically, especially in Ephesians, malevolent and dark angels do operate out of the heavens. The Powers and principalities are said to be in the heavens and the Aer, the lesser heaven beneath the Aether.


What does all of this mean? Oversimplification and even worse.....

People don't read.



[edit on 4/1/10 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by halfoldman
How, why or where does anyone get the message in the Bible that all spirits are "demons"?
Somebody please explain why significant amounts of people believe in aliens and spirits, but only as "demons"?

Spirits.. meaning the spirits of the dead were thought to be demonic so everyone would be too afraid to communicate with them. This was done so that no one could learn from them how we were being controlled and limited by our culture and beliefs.

The only good advice was to test the spirits. Today this is valid too. They are everywhere around us; many are lost, many aren't and most only desire to pass over into what does appear heavenly and so end their self-imposed hell.

Demons are simply other souls choosing a different experience to you; many are misguided, controlled and used, while others are happy to cause havoc.

Each one can teach you something of great value. Firstly, they can teach us the way through fear into clarity, and then teach us how to love them back to "health". To do otherwise would be make yourselves as they are.