Why do reborn Christians regard all "spirits" as demons?

I guess you could consider me a born again christian (although i am technically a messianic jew) and i do not think all spirits are "evil" The bible teaches us to be wary of all spirits, especially those who claim to be "good."

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by halfoldman

 

By the way, I saw a program on the Westboro Baptist Sect.
They began their public demonstrations with "God hates Fags", and then went on to the Jews and Catholics. Now they picket the funerals of US soldiers and call it "worshipping the dead". Is it necromancy and worshipping the dead, or where do mainstream Christians draw the line?

I'm not sure you would consider me mainstream, but I am very disturbed by the hateful statements of groups like these. God loves all of us! He loves us even though we may be doing things which he condemns in the Bible. No, we are not to be like the Pharisees, pointing out the sins of others while downplaying our own.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by halfoldman

 

By the way, I saw a program on the Westboro Baptist Sect.
They began their public demonstrations with "God hates Fags", and then went on to the Jews and Catholics. Now they picket the funerals of US soldiers and call it "worshipping the dead". Is it necromancy and worshipping the dead, or where do mainstream Christians draw the line?

Mainstream Christianity does not subscribe to the cultish beliefs or actions of the Westboro Baptist sect. I see no valid reason for including them in this thread.

I tend to agree, however, that some funerals can be overstated in terms of cost and ceremony. But cemetaries and ceremonies of burial are not wrong or evil. They are in fact tokens of respect for a dead body as opposed to merely tossing a loved one in a trash can. Even the ancient Hebrews honored the passing of their own dead.

Necromancy is any attempt to "contact" the dead, not any attempt to "bury" the dead.

reply to post by thisnamenotinuse

To your own and other posts: how does one know one is dealing with a demon, and not just a drink, one's own psychic ability or spirit?
I was very hurt on New Years and it dragged me into depression. I've been thinking about an equal measure of psychic revenge. Yeah I know it's wrong, blah, blah, but being a smallish gay man it's sometimes all that I have.
Tonight I heard this person was silent and depressed, and I feel almost bad.
In general I feel this power about me. Is this a demon?

Originally posted by DeathShield
I guess you could consider me a born again christian (although i am technically a messianic jew) and i do not think all spirits are "evil" The bible teaches us to be wary of all spirits, especially those who claim to be "good."

My Bible (and as a Christian that is to be my first authority) tells me that the only good spirit is God Himself.

As born again Christians, God's "good" Spirit can perform good works through their bodies. But it is still His good Spirit doing the good works.

Holy angels, including the seraphim and cherubim, are not good. They are created by God as servants to do His bidding. Any good that they seem to do is according to the will and purpose of a good God.

Remember that it was Lucifer (Satan) the anointed cherub (cherubim) and angel of God that rebelled against Him. And a third of the once holy angels of God followed after Satan. How good was all their past goodness then?

The Bible states that there is none who doeth good, no not one. And another verse states that God puts no trust in His own angels. Even Jesus asked the question, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but God!".

So there is only one good Spirit, that being God Himself.

Originally posted by halfoldman
In the accepted Old Testament Saul encounters the dead via the "Witch of Endor". Some verses are more specific: Job 4:15, "Then a spirit passed my face; and the hair of my flesh stood up".
How, why or where does anyone get the message in the Bible that all spirits are "demons"?
Somebody please explain why significant amounts of people believe in aliens and spirits, but only as "demons"?

Earth is the silent planet.

There was a disconnect here in the very beginning...
...the Watchers who were here to assist us during our infancy spoiled us.

Jude refers to them as "...the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation..." Jude 1:6

Lucifer the head angel is in Revelation called the dragon whose "...tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:"

So one third of the angels of heaven were seduced or rebelled...
...and these are the spirits or demons that are mascquerading now as UFO/Aliens and producing hybrid 'aliens'.

Some of the remaining good Watchers/Messangers/Angels are engaged in warfare...
...they rarely appear openly to men and are never far away from human activity...
...but when they do appear they reveal themselves in physical form and speak audibly...
...where the fallen spirits usually appear in some less than solid state and communicate telepathically.

The fallen Watchers began genetically manipulating the human genome very early in human history...
...perhaps as a means of replacing the 'world of men'...
...but more likely to stop the expression of the One who would put the world right as promised.

Genesis 6:9 "states that "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations..."
The word used for 'generations' here is a reference to his inherited genome.

So it seems the world had become so over populated with hybrids that they were destroyed and only one family still carrying the original human genome was preserved.

The hybrid breeding process started again post-flood...
...but their numbers were controlled through culling by men and Angels.

The breeding of hybrids was not necessary once Jesus incarnated through the human line....
...but the stories from most cultures about fairies, giants, werewolves, vampires, bigfoot and leprechaun's etc indicate that the fallen Watchers kept playing with genetics.

Late 1940's or early 1950's this changed...
...abduction scenario's with a genetic focus suggest a breeding program was initiated...
...with the goal of producing hybrids that look like aliens and others that can pass as human.

This time they seem less intent on replacing us and more concerned with deceiving us and enlisting our support through a cargo cult mechanism of offering 'advanced technologies' to solve problems they have probably had a hand in causing in the first place...
...world hunger, pestilence and polution.

It is important not to confuse the fallen spirits with their genetic productions...
...hybrid productions die like any animal...
...the life of a spirits is continuous but is still derived and not intrinsically eternal in nature.

A time has been appointed to 'unmake' the fallen spirits...
...this time is not known but signs indicate it is approaching rapidly...
...and they know they are soon to die...
...and they plan to take as many people down with them as they can.

So take this advice, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" 1 Peter 5:8

You don't need to be taken down with them.

reply to post by thisnamenotinuse

Well, perhaps to put it Texan style, the only good spirit is a dead spirit. Can't say I'm laughing though.

This normally happens when someone can not think for themself. I have three friends who are "reborn", and find that they have all been taught the very same way of thinking. I ask each of them why they think the way they do, and they respond, "Oh, this is what the pastor says.", or, " This is what the good book tells us." When I ask them to give me their own answer without the use of the pastor or good book, they can`t. It always goes back to what they are being told by the church. As I tell them, it`s ok to think as you like, we all can, it only shows me at what level of spiritual they are at. When they learn to think for themselves without others doing it for them, then maybe they will grow. Until that day, they will only grow as fast as what the church will let them.

My friends tell me they are 'reborn", I tell them no, though they may not be doing the bad things they once did, that does not make them "reborn", it only shows that they are being told what to think, how to act, and what to say by someone else. Yes, they may have "turned their life around", but they will not be finished turning around till they learn to think for themselves.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by thisnamenotinuse

 

To your own and other posts: how does one know one is dealing with a demon, and not just a drink, one's own psychic ability or spirit?
I was very hurt on New Years and it dragged me into depression. I've been thinking about an equal measure of psychic revenge. Yeah I know it's wrong, blah, blah, but being a smallish gay man it's sometimes all that I have.
Tonight I heard this person was silent and depressed, and I feel almost bad.
In general I feel this power about me. Is this a demon?

I get the impression that you have never fully read the Bible, or at least have not recalled all that you have read.

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. - Romans 12:19"

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; - St. Matthew 5:44"

When we step outside of God's laws for us, it opens a door through which anything can enter, be it anger, depression, or even a demon (though I suspect not in your case).

You can "test" a spirit this way: is what the spirit doing in agreement with the message and Person of the gospel (particularly in the matter of whether the spirit, in doing what is is doing, is at the same time acknowledging that Jesus Christ came in the flesh (as the Messiah) and is still in the flesh (as the body of Christ here on this earth). If it is not in agreement with that then whatever the spirit is doing has failed the test.

The only power is from God and it is only available for edifying (building up) the body of believers. Does your power only work to build up the body of believers? That is how you know if the power is from God.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by thisnamenotinuse]

Originally posted by FiatLux
This normally happens when someone can not think for themself. I have three friends who are "reborn", and find that they have all been taught the very same way of thinking. I ask each of them why they think the way they do, and they respond, "Oh, this is what the pastor says.", or, " This is what the good book tells us." When I ask them to give me their own answer without the use of the pastor or good book, they can`t. It always goes back to what they are being told by the church. As I tell them, it`s ok to think as you like, we all can, it only shows me at what level of spiritual they are at. When they learn to think for themselves without others doing it for them, then maybe they will grow. Until that day, they will only grow as fast as what the church will let them.

My friends tell me they are 'reborn", I tell them no, though they may not be doing the bad things they once did, that does not make them "reborn", it only shows that they are being told what to think, how to act, and what to say by someone else. Yes, they may have "turned their life around", but they will not be finished turning around till they learn to think for themselves.

Big difference between being 'reborn' of religion and being 'reborn' of the Spirit eh?

Just another sideline post on something I've been wondering about.
In my academic work I've come across evil - not just as a philosophical pursuit. Some say the concentration camps had a real aura of evil. Some places to my mind are truly demonic.
If Jerusalem is the place of Christ's death, why would anyone want to be near it?
Furthermore, I think our thoughts and actions can seriously mark a place with collective Evil.

I'd like to add apparitions of Mary into the mix.

How evil is that? Using the mother of Jesus to promote idol worship, and to take away from the world's savior, Jesus Christ.

I believe there are just as many angels and there are demons. I can see how Angels comforting grieving loved ones could be misconstrued as spirits, and I'm sure demons do the same thing but in a more evil manner. Take it for what it is.

reply to post by Carseller4

Mary? Oh you mean the Tammuz, Ishtar, Isis worship that passes as "modern" Christianity?
No worries there, I prefer my "demons" from indigenous cultures (and for some reason white Europeans do not count as "indigenous" anywhere).

reply to post by thisnamenotinuse


You do Realize that your bible is a construct of man right? God never said that the bible is his official word. And before you begin getting pissy i actually have a copy of the bible in three different languages. Hebrew, Ancient Greek and English.

reply to post by thisnamenotinuse

If you bless those that persecute you, and that whole reverse of reality argument, then shouldn't the Christians give Bin Laden all their money, love and assets?

reply to post by halfoldman


There are a variety of different beliefs on spirits and demons and the like, it's not just a blanket "all spirits are evil" approach. This is mainly because the scripture is unclear, it doesn't posit a clear picture of the paranormal or supernatural.

I've known Christians who believed all spirits were demonic and I've known others who wanted to go ghost hunting with me

A lot of it, I think, depends on the vagueness presented in the Bible about the afterlife. Some believe you go straight to judgement and then go to Heaven or Hell right away, others believe you just stick around in a sort of other dimension "underworld" (the Bible mentions Hades and Sheol) as a ghost until final judgement at the end of days (in Revelation). The Bible isn't clear and so neither are the beliefs surrounding spirits. Hope that helps.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by halfoldman

 

There are a variety of different beliefs on spirits and demons and the like, it's not just a blanket "all spirits are evil" approach. This is mainly because the scripture is unclear, it doesn't posit a clear picture of the paranormal or supernatural.

I've known Christians who believed all spirits were demonic and I've known others who wanted to go ghost hunting with me

A lot of it, I think, depends on the vagueness presented in the Bible about the afterlife. Some believe you go straight to judgement and then go to Heaven or Hell right away, others believe you just stick around in a sort of other dimension "underworld" (the Bible mentions Hades and Sheol) as a ghost until final judgement at the end of days (in Revelation). The Bible isn't clear and so neither are the beliefs surrounding spirits. Hope that helps.

That sums it up, I suppose from a widespread, academic view.

From the Lutheran sect.

Christians are taught that all people that have died are asleep until God awakens them on judgment day. So any spirit that you come into contact with can only be a Demon, Angel or God himself.

Having only read the OP, these are my thoughts...

First, regarding spirits, you make a good point with Saul seeking the medium. Obviously, it appears, all spirits aren't evil. Samuel wasn't, yet the Bible says it was, in fact, him the medium summoned. However, that was an exception, not the rule. There was one story amidst many where folks summoned spirits the Bible refers to as demons.

One thing that's always jumped out at me was when Jesus was walking on the water and the soon to be apostles saw Him. They told Him they thought He was a ghost, and, rather than correct them, as Jesus does all other times they get things wrong, He simply states, "No, it is I". So... What the heck are ghosts?

I think the reason so many Christians lash out at ghosts is several fold. First, it was prophesied (I believe by John G. Lake, but I could be very, very wrong) in the late 1800s that aliens would have to be believed in in order to quell any suspicion surrounding a rapture. Note, this is almost a hundred years before Roswell. If the world would continue down a damned path after a rapture, there would have to be a simple explanation to explain away all the disappearances, and aliens work. Given that, it would make sense to suspect anything appearing to be an alien as one who is, patiently, seeking to turn folks away from God, and therefore a demon, since they couldn't be human.

In addition to this, the Bible seems to state that all of creation was effected by Adam's sin, which would mean that any other world supporting life is subject to the fall as well. Therefore, any aliens doing anything but promoting Christ would fall under John's definition of Antichrist in 1 John. As such, either they are fallen beings as we are, or else fallen angels seeking to deceive us into believing there is life outside of our surprisingly privileged planet.

Well why are "spirits" always screwing with us? From my experience ghosts may or may not be evil, but they definitely appear to be jerks.

Ever watch a ghost show like ghost hunters? They go around chasing after ghosts the whole show and trying to catch them on film. This is the same as my own experience too.

But the spirits don't want to be on the film and the spirits always seem to want to mess with the ghost hunters. Like the ghost hunters will see the ghost out of the corner of their eye, but when they go over there to see what it was it runs away from them?

Why is it running away? And if it doesn't want us to notice it or it is scared, then why does the ghost mess with our stuff? When the ghost hunters aren't there ghosts will knock things off walls and shelves, wake people up at night, makes rude noises so people will notice it, and some spirits have attacked people physically.

People have been hurt by ghosts hitting them, pushing them, scratching them, and even holding them down violently so they can't move. I had a friend that claimed his house was haunted by the spirit of a small girl that seemed friendly, but when he decided to convert to Christianity the "little girl" tried to push him down the basements steps in an attempt to kill him.

As soon as people wanting to communicate show up they rarely want to communicate with you. Sometimes they do, but it's the exception and not the rule and if they do happen to catch something on film or thermal guess what it is? It's always the ghost running away or vanishing in the next frame.

What about ghosts that tell us things from the spirit world we could never know? About every single time people communicate with spirits they get a lie that's hidden in between two truths. They'll gain your trust and then screw you over. Like when the psychic Sylvia Brown said that boy was dead only find out a little bit later he was very much alive. If the spirits didn't know if he was dead or not, they should have just said that instead of saying the boy was dead.

Okay, well maybe she's a fraud right? Okay, easy solution. Let's just go find ourself a physic that isn't a fraud. They should get their predictions right every time right? Nope. Can't find one single psychic that ALWAYS gets it right. How many end of the world date setters have gotten it wrong now? So, are they really communicating with spirits?

If so that means spirits aren't any better at telling the future than we are. So what good are they? I mean, you ever read a prophecy? You can't understand the damn things and nobody even really knows what they mean and how many prophecies has ever been to used to stop something from happening before the tragic event?

You know what Jesus said when they asked him about the end of the world and what date it would be on? He said he didn't know. Hmm, if anyone was ever "in touch" with the spirit world it would probably be him in my opinion and guess what? NADA!

If spirits were good and could tell the future then what about 9/11? Why didn't spirits start showing up all over the planet before 9/11 and warning us, hey on THIS DAY 9/11/01! THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN!! and give us the exact plan? Instead we get crap like sometime in the future they'll be a fire in the sky in the new city fake Nostradamus crap! Screw that! It doesn't mean anything until after it happens and doesn't help us save anyone!

Okay, so what good are people that can talk to spirits then? I'll tell you. If they can talk to spirits then guess what? Ghosts can knock books off shelves right? We've seen things like that happen before right?

Awesome, I have an idea. Let's just get a camera and a shelf and a book and a ghost and a psychic. I have a plan. We'll just tell the psychic to tell the ghost to knock the book off the shelf on command over and over again and we'll get a camera and we'll study the results scientifically and prove that ghosts are real right? WRONG!

All of a sudden when it comes to getting proof the ghost doesn't want to play anymore. Never mind! Guess it has a dinner date or something and the psychic just can't work under that stress right? But guess what? As soon as the camera man leaves now of a sudden the damn ghost doesn't have anything better to do then screw with my crap again and there goes the books and the noises again? WTF?

Seriously, as much as people worry about death if I was dead and I was a spirit the first thing I would want to do is communicate to people that there is indeed an after life and I wouldn't run away when people try to communicate with me and I'd keep giving them EVPs over and over again and I wouldn't knock books off shelves or ruin their things only while they were away. I'd save my energy for when they were there and keep trying to communicate.

But the spirits in my opinion, their behavior only shows one thing, and that's an attempt to screw with us and even physically hurt us sometimes and so far have not provided us with anything beneficial whatsoever except prophecies nobody can understand or interpret and don't even come true most of the time and a wild goose chase.

Sure, maybe there's things they can't tell us, or they can't revel themselves to us for some reason, but then if they can't reveal themselves to us and they don't want us to know they exist then why all the mischief after the camera shuts off?

I've experienced ghosts before and far as I'm concerned if they can leave my crap alone while the camera is on, they can just as well leave it the hell alone while the camera is off too. An even better way to hide from us, is to not bother us at all don't ya think instead of this screwing around.

Maybe they're not evil, but so far I've determined that the spirit world is full of either jerks or residual hauntings that aren't really spirits at all.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 3-1-2010 by tinfoilman]