Riddle me this, Christians..

I believe Jesus was a great spiritual leader that has been many places around the world and teaching people true spirituality. Not the way the Christian church goes. I believe Jesus would be against following something blindly (like what most Christians do). I believe the Church is just over-abusing their power and keeping people blind to the truth.

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine

What happens to those who have never heard of Christ?

There is no such person...

John explains it like this...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men... that was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." John 1:1-10

So the Word that John identifies as the Lord who became Jesus and the Christ (Messiah)...
...is the light that is the life of every man...
...and although this is not available to Gnosis (conscious knowledge) in the natural man...
...each person is known by and responds to or rejects the Spirit.

So through the Spirit, Christ is 'heard' by every man...
...even though a person may never have heard His name.

[edit on 3/1/10 by troubleshooter]

That actually seems like a sane christian logical explanation and does make some sense.....

We can't just assume that our spirit or whatever we are does not already know of it.....

That would also mean that our lives here could not come to and end and therefore we would have to have had many lives...

Which also makes sense considering how long it takes to get back to one......

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

everyone hears his voice because it is a fixed, internal construct.
that's the point.

Don't confuse the utility with the presence.

All sons of Adam have the ability to receive but not all are tuned to hear.
A child's 'secret friend' may be a vestigial evidence of this ability that is lost in adults.
All sons of Adam have the light of life within them but most prefer darkness to light.

"...this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light..." John 3:19

We are now living in the time of the last church Laodicea...
...and Jesus is seen outside of His own group asking for entry...
Jesus says, "I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20

So He is specifically outside His own church...
...but His appeal is non-specific, to 'any man'.

So there is a sense in which He is the life of every man...
...but He desires an intimate ontological and rational relationship with anyone who will actually hear Him.



[edit on 3/1/10 by troubleshooter]

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


*looks at Ghost in the Machine seriously and solemnly*..

My wife and I both were raised without a father, her's died when she turned 15 six months before. My father passed away around the age of 5 or 6, thus, I never knew him.

After my wife a personal encounter with the Lord Jesus shortly after and she asked the Lord this specific question under a flood of tears.. I quote you..

"I am a merciful God, mercy is in my nature."

You could say this for all the people that are in collisions in of all kinds, war etc.. People that died unexpectedly/suddenly into the next life is completely out of our control; that's God specialty. These things we need to trust God is doing the right thing for us and them ..

However, what does extremely concern me is...

those that are living which do 'hear'/understand and turn away ..

If you do not love god then apperarently you will burn in the fires of hell. I guess that means about 6 billion people seeing how 1 billion are christians.

reply to post by troubleshooter


i tend to agree but disagree at the same time.
let's start with the premise that the shekinah was removed from the temple when yeshua died. and instead of dwelling in the building, it dwells in the believer. now let's look at why that was necessary:

1. the law had condemned pretty much everyone to die.
this is no different than what people are preaching today. it's all a matter of focal point. i prefer using yeshua's words for a guideline rather than paul's although paul is certainly an awesome teacher-- he was not yeshua. this was the same problem yeshua encountered when he came to the planet = people were worshipping the written words of moses.

2. the bible is a book. it's not the word of God. the word of God was Yeshua. the bible is a book, a book, not the holy spirit and not God. using the book to justify everything is scary, primarily because of the previous focal points i mentioned. 2 different people can be condemned by the church for totally different reasons, using the same passsage of scripture, just by massaging the other scriptures that support the point being made. that's freakin' scary. and if someone was uncharacteristically disliked for whatever reason, they would never be able to dig themselves out of the heap of accusations that would be literally endless.


[edit on 3-1-2010 by undo]

reply to post by RecentlyAwaken


You assume too much. I did not state which of the many versions I have been reading. As a matter of fact, I've read through several different versions and am currently trying to get my hands on a Pre-KJV manuscript.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


you might find a version on my site here:
tiny.cc...

reply to post by boniknik


So basically your saying that no matter what religion I could belong to, Im saved because the God of Christians says so?

Not a very good arguement at all buddy.

I think you've forgotten about the millions of others who just despise Christ and christians, Or simply those who dont want anything to do with their "salvation"

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

i tend to agree but disagree at the same time.

That's good...it would distrurb me if you agreed with everything...
...I am here to learn as well as proclaim.

let's start with the premise that the shekinah was removed from the temple when yeshua died. and instead of dwelling in the building, it dwells in the believer. now let's look at why that was necessary:

A little clarity...

I think that the Lord who walked in the garden with Adam and Eve...
...who spoke to Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Moses was also the Shekinah.

The same Lord/Shekinah incarnated into Jesus who was the Christ (Messiah).

When John wrote :...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1:14
Dwelt is the Greek 'skenoo' which means to tabernacle or tent...
...which you will recognise is a reference to the Sanctuary/Tabernacle.

When He left and gave the Spirit to all who believe...
...this Spirit was the Lord/Jesus/Shekinah/Holy Spirit.

Remember Jesus said, "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." John 14:16-18

1. the law had condemned pretty much everyone to die.
this is no different than what people are preaching today. it's all a matter of focal point. i prefer using yeshua's words for a guideline rather than paul's although paul is certainly an awesome teacher-- he was not yeshua. this was the same problem yeshua encountered when he came to the planet = people were worshipping the written words of moses.

The law was given to a specific people for a specific purpose...
...it was to coccoon Israel to maintain and protect its identity...
...so that the Messiah could enflesh through their genetics.

The law had two bookends...
Galatians 3:16-19 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. ... the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after ... was added ... till the seed should come to whom the promise was made.

So it was introduced 430 years after the promise to Abraham...
...until Christ came.

The Spirit replaced the law (both were given at the feast of Penetcost)

2. the bible is a book. it's not the word of God. the word of God was Yeshua. the bible is a book, a book, not the holy spirit and not God. using the book to justify everything is scary, primarily because of the previous focal points i mentioned.

I totally agree and have argued this myself on another forum.

reply to post by dragonsmusic


I guess a Time leaping Jesus would explain alot. With all the crazy stuff in the bible I would guess its plausible.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by Ghost in the Machine]

reply to post by troubleshooter


precisely, and when the spirit came to dwell in the human instead of the building or the book, what did we do with it ? we quit listening to the indwelling and listened to the book, for everything. we insisted god fit into whatever way we translate the passages of the scripture, and fight lengthy battles, ostracize, condemn, harrass and otherwise make people who may disagree with us on even the smallest point of scripture, totally miserable, poverty stricken or worse. and therein lies the real answer to the op's question:

god deals with each of us on an individual basis. god is not confined to a book or the theories we may have about the book. since we are unique creations and come to the table with our own set of issues, god deals with us where we are, not where others want us to be or where others say we should be. this is why the jews in yeshua's time, had such a hard time understanding him. they insisted that he deal with things BY THE BOOK. but that ain't what it's all about. the book is a guide but it's not THE GUIDE.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


i can't remember where but i'm pretty sure that God said it matters not whether anyone hear or read of him or Christ because, he already gave them "the word" at their birth. a man/woman does not need to know anything to project his/her beliefs nor does he/she need to know the truth to act on them.

reply to post by troubleshooter


about the law condemning anyone not under it to death... jesus proved that wrong with his reference about jacob and the gentiles and circumcision, how not being circumcized does not protect anyone from judgement nor does circumcision protect anyone from judgement.

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
reply to post by Gando702

 

I am aware of the workings of the Mormon Church. But the whole baptism for the dead thing is in the Book of Mormon, Not the Holy Bible.

Then you are also aware that they worship Jesus Christ, making them Christians.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

precisely, and when the spirit came to dwell in the human instead of the building or the book, what did we do with it ? we quit listening to the indwelling and listened to the book, for everything. we insisted god fit into whatever way we translate the passages of the scripture, and fight lengthy battles, ostracize, condemn, harrass and otherwise make people who may disagree with us on even the smallest point of scripture, totally miserable, poverty stricken or worse. and therein lies the real answer to the op's question:

god deals with each of us on an individual basis. god is not confined to a book or the theories we may have about the book. since we are unique creations and come to the table with our own set of issues, god deals with us where we are, not where others want us to be or where others say we should be. this is why the jews in yeshua's time, had such a hard time understanding him. they insisted that he deal with things BY THE BOOK. but that ain't what it's all about. the book is a guide but it's not THE GUIDE.

You would enjoy this free ebook...

Christianity is NOT Religion - James A Fowler
www.christinyou.net...

reply to post by notsympl


So, What if I had never heard of Christ or God? Would it mean that I could exalt myself above God and still make it to heaven without so much as a slap on the wrist?

If this is so, I think Im following the wrong religion.

reply to post by Gando702


Yes. Except they use another testament of Jesus Christ along with the Bible. Also known as The Book of Mormon.

Originally posted by Ausar
people who know nothing of the knowledge pertaining the knowledge of the experiences of "christ" are told in the bible to keep what they have, not build uppon what they do.

Hey, OP. This guy gave you the answer.
That's all there is to it. If it isn't what you wanted to hear, or if you didn't understand it, or if it didn't create an argument, that's your problem OP.
But, seriously, thanks for creating another psycho-anti-Christian thread!
Here's a tip: You might want to leave stuff like this to the "Smart" Anti-Christians.



[edit on 3-1-2010 by LASTofTheV8s]

Answered easily with the parable of the Master and the slaves...

"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more." (Luke 12:47-48)

Ultimately, all men will be judged on the basis of what they know and how they act upon it.

A2D

[edit on 3-1-2010 by Agree2Disagree]