The Illustrated History of MJ-12

Well Kenn Thomas touts this Willhelm Reich book by Jim Martin that contains an MJ-12 smoking gun document:

www.excludedmiddle.com...

So what if there is no such thing as extraterrestrials? I am satisfied that there was such a thing as MJ-12 because of the Lou Douglas memo. The Lou Douglas memo supports the Cutler-Twining memo. Jim Martin won't let me say much about it. To me it's the smoking gun to prove there was an MJ-12. If there was an MJ-12 and there were no aliens, does this mean that there was a secret group of geeks who believed that there were aliens when there weren't any? Q: Maybe this is the sort of thing that Jaime Shandera is talking about: This scenario with aliens is for him supported by a web of evidence that includes documents that are time-specific and person-specific, and unaltered. There are as many as he could possibly find, and then there's one that might be the key, like your Lou Douglas memo. A: The one that convinces you that there is no way it could have been altered or even made up.

[Edit to fix external quote box]

[edit on 1/6/2010 by yeahright]

Kenn Thomas gives more details here:

www.ufomystic.com...

Originally posted by drew hempel
Well Kenn Thomas touts this Willhelm Reich book by Jim Martin that contains an MJ-12 smoking gun document:

www.excludedmiddle.com...

So what if there is no such thing as extraterrestrials? I am satisfied that there was such a thing as MJ-12 because of the Lou Douglas memo. The Lou Douglas memo supports the Cutler-Twining memo. Jim Martin won't let me say much about it. To me it's the smoking gun to prove there was an MJ-12. If there was an MJ-12 and there were no aliens, does this mean that there was a secret group of geeks who believed that there were aliens when there weren't any? Q: Maybe this is the sort of thing that Jaime Shandera is talking about: This scenario with aliens is for him supported by a web of evidence that includes documents that are time-specific and person-specific, and unaltered. There are as many as he could possibly find, and then there's one that might be the key, like your Lou Douglas memo. A: The one that convinces you that there is no way it could have been altered or even made up.

[edit on 5-1-2010 by drew hempel]

Originally posted by chunder
reply to post by The Shrike

 

I look forward to the continuation and the opportunity to reply because so far that has not been a "rare balanced POV from a trusted source", more an alternative opposite POV to many expressed here that may provide balance, if further researched, by an unbiased reader.

Rather than plagiarising can you either link or paraphrase i.e. in the book so and so author so and so stated his view as follows.

Read my reply again 'cause all sources are included. I included the book title, the author, year of publication and on what pages the material came from. What else do you require?

There are many sources of disinformation and that is what is being presented on this thread. Karl Pflock was an excellent researcher and he came up with what no one wants to accept: that no UFO crashed near Roswell.

I'd rather accept his research results than the posted pro-crap. It was meant for the gullible.

Originally posted by Jocko Flocko
What would truly be outstanding and surprising is if The Shrike actually made a presentation of his own with an opposing point of view rather than copying and pasting other peoples work and then using high school like witty sarcasm to make himself appear oh so much wiser and intelligent than the rest of us...

Gather your evidence Shrike and put your money where your mouth is regarding these MJ-12 Documents in a well laid out manner like the author of this thread has.

Why don't you tell the same thing to the OP? You are being a hypocrite.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by The Shrike


Whilst you may have quoted sources you then simply cut and pasted someone else's opinion, which without reading the book seems to be that they researched Roswell, concluded nothing happened there and therefore any documents that then refer to Roswell are false.

Paraphrasing would be more appropriate and if suggesting that causes your response then I also suggest that says more about you than me.

If you want to believe Pflock then that is your prerogative. I would suggest however that there are people who frequent these forums who are better researched than Pflock on the subject if that excerpt you gave is the best that he could come up with.

Where is his evidence ? Where is his research ?

Give us something more than cut and pasted drivel topped by egotistical rhetoric or lose the audience that for reasons only known to you appear to be so much desired.

Who did Pflock think was behind all of the documents, surely not Bill Moore because that can easily be proven impossible. A combination of Moore being played by Doty, doesn't cover everything. Things are never that simple, chuck in the above plus unofficial whistleblowing, genuine documents, official semi-disclosure and any number of independent researchers and then those out for mischief or gain and that would be closer.

So, that the documents exist is fact. Who did Pflock think hoaxed them and who do you think did ?

You want to debate the existence of MJ-12 then do so, again I say put up or shut up.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by chunder]

reply to post by The Shrike
i guess we can keep pretending if we want to kecksberg pa 65ish craft recovered the next day the governor of pa is seen at the lbj ranch and these 12 guys are already there too their smokin contrails came from offet minot march langley ellington afbs and all landed at bergstrom afb on that day maybe they all just flew in for a turkey shoot or a barbeque at the lbj ranch they are pictures of all these people there that day twinning vandenberg vannaver forrestal and the rest and a few boys from nasa i pitty the pretenders

There are many sources of disinformation and that is what is being presented on this thread. Karl Pflock was an excellent researcher and he came up with what no one wants to accept: that no UFO crashed near Roswell.

To unequivocally state this, he'd need to then explain what DID crash...
SOMETHING crashed...this is a FACT.

Mogul doesn't add up. You don't establish military cordons, fly the debris to Air Materiel Command (FACT), for something made of balsa wood, balloons, and tin foil.... And, you'd have to accept that top military intelligence officers somehow couldn't identify the debris as such off the shelf components! Also, the timelines only mesh for Mogul IF you accept Brazel's recant AFTER being in military custody.

And other than Mogul, the military has no other official claim for what crashed there.

Originally posted by Gazrok
...
Mogul doesn't add up. You don't establish military cordons, fly the debris to Air Materiel Command (FACT), for something made of balsa wood, balloons, and tin foil.... And, you'd have to accept that top military intelligence officers somehow couldn't identify the debris as such off the shelf components! Also, the timelines only mesh for Mogul IF you accept Brazel's recant AFTER being in military custody.
...

Mogul carried sensor packages. They're not made of balsa wood, balloons, and tin foil. They'd also be significantly more important than the balloons, because the data they may contain, their operating parameters etc. would be useful to the USSR. Assuming it was the United States. If it wasn't US hopefully there were markings somewhere. If that were the case, back then, the stakes were nuclear.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by jackphotohobby]

Props to OP nice breakdown of MJ12.

reply to post by mel1962


Good question, as far as I am aware though the Japanese code breaking project was actually classified MAGIC and I am not aware of any references to the 12 apostles or 12 members or any designation including the number 12 or spelling starting MAJ.

Are you able to provide any references or links ?

Great stuff OP!
I've been looking for a great research that's about MJ-12.
I've seen around the web a lot of docs. and documentaries about MJ-12, but you brought all the info together .

Either if MJ-12 are real or fake, we will probably never know, unless J. Ventura becomes pres. of the States. and even with him chances are slim.
MJ-12 were investigating UFO/Aliens or they were in a totally different job.
If they were investigating something different i think they had to make people believe they were involved in something else. ( this may be silly, i know )
www.majesticdocuments.com...

Google Video Link

reply to post by The Shrike


Oh Shrikey my friend, I was only suggesting that perhaps you might like to create your OWN thread on the MJ-12 conspiracy? Present YOUR evidence and OPINION in the same manner as our OP did in his thread. You come across trying to act more "wiser" and "educated" than the rest of us... So, prove it.

Mogul carried sensor packages. They're not made of balsa wood, balloons, and tin foil. They'd also be significantly more important than the balloons, because the data they may contain, their operating parameters etc. would be useful to the USSR. Assuming it was the United States. If it wasn't US hopefully there were markings somewhere. If that were the case, back then, the stakes were nuclear.

The military maintains what crashed at Roswell was Mogul flight 4 (launched in June, 1947). Flight 4 contained balloons, string, a target reflector (made of balsa wood and foil paper), and a sonobuoy (about 3 feet some inches metal cylinder)...and a small black electronics box.

Hardly anything there that is top secret, or anything here that one would mistake for alien debris...and yet top intelligence officers testified to being baffled at the debris. No components of Mogul were classified, only the PURPOSE was. I still maintain they wouldn't fly remnants of such materials to Air Materiel Command, and Foreign Technology bases...

[edit on 22-1-2010 by Gazrok]

I've seen around the web a lot of docs. and documentaries about MJ-12, but you brought all the info together

Thank you. Since it's gone on for 8 pages, it's good to point out that THIS (bringing it together) was really the main goal of this thread...NOT to prove or disprove MJ-12.

That task will likely be impossible to do at this point. I just found it interesting that IF a disc did crash and was recovered, these would be the people I'd want working on it. Also, the amount of effort and research required to make such a corroborated and interwoven hoax is astoundingly impressive....so we're left either with a smoking gun of a massive coverup, or possibly the greatest hoax effort ever fabricated. (heck, may even be a combination of both, for all we know).

EDIT: with some of the recent MJ-12 stuff discussed, made me think of this thread for some context...

[edit on 15-4-2010 by Gazrok]

But you are talking about more of the recent-modern technology. That stuff didn't exist in the 60s, 70s and even into the 80s. There should, if the group existed, be something to tell us who their immediate successors were at least.

Why would there be? Perhaps whomever leaked the MJ12 documents is no longer in a position to do so. Once these were released, perhaps a lockdown on the data went into effect. There are probably many good reasons no further information was forthcoming.

Keep in mind that the original documentation looked as if it were copied. i.e. someone had access to them, but not the ability to remove them. But that may be long gone now... if I as a government agency who had these saw them leaked, I'd take plenty of meatures to make certain this didn't happen again.

I'm going to pore through all this when I've got time - thanks for posting all those docs tho! You've brought it all together under one roof, I'm looking forward to reading through them all

The 'burned memo' caught my attention tho as I've seen it before....

www.majesticdocuments.com...
www.majesticdocuments.com...

Quote from page 9...

DRAFT
Directive Regarding BW
Designated MJ projects should be held in readiness to perform SPIKE and HOUSE CLEANING operations in major population centers in the event conventional methods are not satisfactory.
Specialist from MK-ULTRA and ARTICHOKE are hereby activated to conduct DOMESTIC.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Assuming the document is real, what the !*?@ is going on there?!

Edited as I just found this....

Quote from www.majesticdocuments.com...

Page 4..

F. Biological Warfare Programs

BW programs in the U.S and U.K. are in field test stages.

... which indicates the 'BW' from the burned memo appears to stand for Biological Warfare. The idea that they were field testing 'new virus and bacteria agents' is pretty scary, but I'm not sure how it ties into the UFO focus of MJ-12. Anybody got any ideas? There were allegations that crazy stuff happened in Porton Down (a UK Ministry of Defence 'science park') in the 60's, but the MJ-12 annual report is much earlier.

PROJECT ARTICHOKE was a mind control experiment, intended to produce amnesia and vulnerable states in individuals... link

as was MK-ULTRA, which I'm sure you're all familiar with

Could it be that there was some kind of secret program to use biological weapons to induce amnesia in the population en-masse? In the event of a UFO sighting, like the one in the 'Battle of LA' they could wipe out the memories of the population that were within viewing range? Crazy stuff, and obviously I'm speculating, but there's definitely a link between the two documents.

MORE READING! Great stuff. Thanks again OP.

In a bit.

[edit on 18-4-2010 by eightfold]

Originally posted by Jocko Flocko

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by Jocko Flocko
As far as the FBI being honest and forthcoming about information regarding documents relating to national security?

Are you serious?

Are you serious?

Do you understand the contradiction you are making here?

I guess it must have gone right over your head, I was leaning towards the notion that if these documents were real would anyone expect the FBI to be forthcoming about therm and tell the truth, seeing as national security would be at stake and all.

I see your point. And if I may, will add an off-the-cuff example based on another controversy - The Federal Building in Oklahoma... Tim McVeigh et al... please read the following carefully.

Much was made of the 2nd detonation.. the one that 'lifted' the slabs and actually brought down the front of the Federal Building. This 2nd detonation shows up on Seismic records...

The explanation for what happened would demand that the Feds violate their own secrecy oaths, because what happened - the explanation.. was CLASSIFIED. The Feds could NOT explain the bombing properly because of this.

The truck used was half filled with ammonium nitrate, saturated in fuel oil.... with a cylinder of oxyacetylene thrown in for good measure...

Fertilizer bombs are low pressure events (compared to plastick or professional explosives) The first blast basically blew in the windows of the building and MOST IMPORTANTLY ATOMIZED HUNDREDS OF GALLONS OF FUEL OIL INTO A MIST...it was the electrically induced (broken wires, circuit breaker etc) ignition of this AIR FUEL MIST that caused the real damage in OKC, and caused the 2nd bigger shock wave.

This however is classified technology called a Fuel Air Explosive - the way they make the strongest blasts outside of the use of nuclear devices.

The FBI could NOT explain this to the public,

But, I'm not a Fed.

now imagine if it was classified alien technology?
hope this helped..
---------------------------



[edit on 10-5-2010 by seataka]

Originally posted by Gazrok
Numerous generals, majors, and sergeants have come forward and said the same things….we recovered craft, we covered it up…and these were certainly folks in the right positions to make it happen.

This says it all right here. Why would these people come forward many years later and say this?

It's like they are trying to tell people what really happened, but many people just refuse to listen.

When you think about it, the cover-up was a total failure because we all know what really happened at Roswell. It's just that the close-minded refuse to believe it.

Excellent thread, you put a great time and attention in your threads, well worthy of a star and flag. A very very interesting read, something that EVERY member should do before starting off.