Question for the self proclaimed Theologists

reply to post by Wertdagf

if jesus was blessed with all sorts of knowledge and stuff why couldnt that be given to EVERY baby at birth.

I'm sure it could. But what for?

babys drowning is buckets and stopping their hearts with light sockets. Im sure glad god decided a baby boy who just saw his second birthday DESERVED to be crushed by a car pulling out of a driveway.

Have you ever seen the Texas Chainsaw Masscre? What about Nightmare on Elmstreet? Friday the 13th? Have you ever seen any horror movie? How about some Shakespearian tragedy? Hamlet? King Lear? Romeo and Juliet? Humans write these stories and make movies about them. Some people even enjoy them. Yes, we also write happy, nice stories, and love stories and comedies...but we do write tragedies and horror stories too. And we can enjoy them both on their own merit.

Why should god be more limited than humans? Imagine that you are an all-powerful, omniscient being. Imagine that you are aware of the finest detail of everything going on in the entirety of the universe, and that you can create planets and species as you please. Might you also create both comedies and tragedies?

Allow me to quote your signature:

Laurie Juspeczyk: Is that what you are? The most powerful thing in the universe and you're just a puppet following a script?
Doctor Manhattan: We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings.

[edit on 27-12-2009 by LordBucket]

They are other peoples emotions, i have lost my own. If they did not feel i would not care. You want to say that people have free will and that your loving god made a crying mother hold her babies mangled corpse on that day... she then commited suicide to escape the memory.

Yes it is a tragedy, but not one to ever be rationalized with reincarnation or mystical #. You are living off of them......... you might as well be sucking the blood from their very necks. At least show thanks for you meal, never insult it with the name of a deity.

[edit on 27-12-2009 by Wertdagf]

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by Chainmaker

 

In order for anyone to be able to choose Good,
the option to choose Evil had to be there.

The question of choosing good or evil is largely irrelevant.

God wants people to love and that love him back, but they could never truly love without the free will to choose to love.

...nor could they "truly love" god without knowing god.

Imagine a married couple. And let us say that the man is cheating on the woman. Sleeping with othe woman behind her back. Her friends even. And with other men. And he kicks dogs when she's not around. And he's also a serial murderer. But she doesn't know about any of this. She only knows about his church-going facade. And she insists that she loves him.

Does she?

I say no. She may be in love with the illusion she has...in love with her own mental fantasy that she associates with him, but she doesn't know who he really is. She is deluded.

Similarly, how can you possibly love god without knowing god? And...god is an omniscient consciousness. God knows everything, right? So...every rape and murder and pain and misery and death and anguish...every atrocity, every mother who abandoned a child, every psycopath who ate someone alive...god knows in complete, vivid deatil every possible thing to be known about these things. Including the thoughts, motivations and caried out actions of those who committed these acts. Oh, yes...god knows the mind of the saint, but also the mind of psycopath.

The "omni" part of "omniscience" is pretty clear about that.

And so I ask...if you know only the "good" that you want to perceive in god, aren't you just as deluded as the woman married to the serial murderer? How can you claim to love god when you're living in delusion?


[edit on 27-12-2009 by LordBucket]

I am humble, or try to be as much as I can, and defer to my Creator who gave me the gift of existence, and I feel his love just through that gift, and far more through the actions and words of Jesus. I know God through knowing who Jesus was and what he did.

I understand that the negative must exist to allow for choice of the positive.

God decided that all the negative was worth allowing so that the positive choices could be made, and I have faith in Him, and I personally have felt his love.

A big part of Christianity is humility, letting go of the distrust of God and just bowing down and having faith in Him. If he was the bad guy Jesus would not have come and went through what he went through for us.

God is Good.

I spent too much time in my life arguing the opposite side of this debate, and I was never truly happy, and after coming to God I have a great peace, I know he is good, I feel his Spirit, I know I have wonderful everlasting life without evil ahead of me, and if the negative choices of many were necessary for me to be able to make the right choice, then I trust God with that.

I have faith. That is what it boils down to.

reply to post by Chainmaker

I have faith. That is what it boils down to.

Nothing wrong with faith. However...faith is not understanding. And perhaps you don't personally have the need to understand. When a man flips a light switch, the light turns on equally well whether or not he understands why the light turns on.

So, I accept your answer. It may well be proper for you to simply have faith in god whether or not you have any understanding of god. But please accept that some of us do need to understand. And for those of us with that need, blind faith might not be the most proper choice.

Many paths may lead to the same destination.


[edit on 27-12-2009 by LordBucket]

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by Chainmaker

 

I have faith. That is what it boils down to.

Nothing wrong with faith. However...faith is not understanding. And perhaps you don't personally have the need to understand. When a man flips a light switch, the light turns on equally well whether or not he understands why the light turns on.

So, I accept your answer. It may well be proper for you to simply have faith in god whether or not you have any understanding of god. But please accept that some of us do need to understand. And for those of us with that need, blind faith might not be the most proper choice.

Many paths may lead to the same destination.


[edit on 27-12-2009 by LordBucket]

What you are deeming to be "understanding God" is actually "having God's understanding"

You aren't capable of it. None of us are.

My faith is not blind. It is very well informed. I have deeply researched all major religions and many minor ones.

Only one path leads to salvation.

reply to post by Chainmaker

Only one path leads to salvation.

Why do you believe you need to be saved?

Saved from what?

Originally posted by Chainmaker

Originally posted by ModestThought

God created Hitler knowing what he was going to do, if anyone should be condemned shouldn't it ultimately be God? Wouldn't He he be responsible for every act of evil Hitler committed?

Nope, because Adolf made his choices, not God, just like you make your choices, God doesn't make them for you.

This is what I find absolutely outrageous.

The second something goes wrong (e.g. God not relieving suffering in the world, not stopping wars etc..) the reason is "that isn't God, it is (insert whatever here)".

It is a total cop-out! If God is the creator, God alone is responsible, and is ultimately the "bad guy".

This whole "it isn't God doing all this bad stuff - God is good" is BS.

[edit on 27-12-2009 by mirageofdeceit]

reply to post by LordBucket


Your story analogy is irrelevant because the characters are not conscious. They do not make "choices" so ultimately the playwright is responsible for the actions of all the characters.

reply to post by mirageofdeceit


Exactly, what it all boils down to is the fact that an all powerful God can do anything he wanted. He could allow us to experience good without evil. We could know of evil but never have to experience it. An all powerful God makes EVERY decision about His Creation, bottom line, He is responsible.

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by Chainmaker

 

Only one path leads to salvation.

Why do you believe you need to be saved?

Saved from what?

I need to be saved from the evil side of my nature. I want to be able to live in a Perfectly Good place completely absent of Evil, and I understand that I am not deserving of that place because I am tainted by the negative.

I understand that humans do not have the power to remove the negative from ourselves, or from nature or the universe in general. The only person who could remove that negative is the person who first created me, the Creator who can create me anew, cleansed of all Evil.

Originally posted by xsheep
Hell and heaven are a state of mind
When I (self ) no longer function
When my body dies

I am no longer an individual self
I am one
I am with out reflection
I am all that is

The good and the bad

No longer exist

And neither is there a heaven or a hell
For I have no reflection
And there for no judgment


The divine being is ignorant of itself
For in being one ....there is no other
There is no reflection

That which is known as god ...is a state of mind
A belief
A thought
A reflection....
That creates duality
That creates a judgment upon itself

the illusion is .....there is no other
no soul ..no self ..
to be punished or destroyed

and to top it all off

I cannot die ....for I have not been born

Ah great some common sense posting at last.
The only thing that was made was the idea of separation from the Prime creator itself.
Hence we made up the idea of the ego and the ensuing world of physicality and form in separateness to all things externall.
Heaven then is an internal understanding and Hell.. well that is what we got all around us in an illusory perception.

i am doing a "swoop and poop", not reading any of this thread before i post (i did read the OP).

God gives us "free will", but that does not mean that we are given the senses to use it.

If you played Modern Warfare on XBox, would you expect that your character is going to understand the motivations of you, the real person? The same can be said for YOU, as in your spirit, or oversoul.

Yes, you have free will, and you have every right to use it. Unfortunately, given the poor condition of your insight while stuck in your bag of flesh, you are unable to fully understand "free will", or conceptualize it. For example, how do you exercise free will when you live in a realm that is timeless? Are you able to decide to do something, say, tomorrow when there is no tomorrow? When always is now, how will you execute your "free will"?

The hardest part for me, honestly, is trying to fathom the real question that is being asked, as it pertains to a reality that is beyond my comprehension.

Originally posted by ModestThought
reply to post by mirageofdeceit

 

Exactly, what it all boils down to is the fact that an all powerful God can do anything he wanted. He could allow us to experience good without evil. We could know of evil but never have to experience it. An all powerful God makes EVERY decision about His Creation, bottom line, He is responsible.

He did allow us to experience good without evil when he created Adam and Eve in the Garden. God told them that there was evil, that a bad thing would happen if they chose to experience Evil, that they would die.

But they chose to exercise their free will and attain the Knowledge(Experience) of Good AND Evil.

Satan tempted Eve by saying with that Knowledge she would be like God. The best lie is one that is mostly truth, and Satan was partially telling the truth.

As has been stated in this thread, God has the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But only he is Perfect Good and can conquer and cleanse Evil. Humans now have the Knowledge of Evil but we are corrupted and controlled by it. The Knowledge of Evil is best kept locked up by God.

Satan's lie is the implication that Man would have God's power and control over Evil along with the Knowledge of it. Satan knew that once we had the Knowledge of Evil we would be subject to it, and likewise subject to him as the Lord of Evil. And Satan told a complete and total lie when he told Eve "You shall not surely die" if she ate the fruit.

Satan used his same sin of wanting to be God, to tempt humans into wanting to be God.

You gotta give it up. You have to be humble before your Creator and trust him and accept his love and mercy and stop doubting him or being jealous of him. You must HAVE FAITH.

Would you rather that no one or nothing ever existed so that Evil never existed?

It doesn't matter what you would rather. That's humility.

Bow down to your Creator. He loves you with Perfect Love and has Perfect Mercy for you.

That's the Truth.

You had free will before you came here, you chose to come here. You have free will now and you will have free will when you die.

It's not a question of what's going to happen to you when you pass to the next life, It's a question of what you want to do.

The choice is yours.

The only evidence contrary to that is the religious folks who tell you to give them 10% of your money or you're going to suffer horribly. If I told you to give me 10% of your money or you'll be cast into a fiery pit you'd laugh at me. Some guy with a collar and book tells you that and you scramble for your wallet and beg for forgiveness.

Religion, all religion, is a rip off. Always has been, always will be.

If you can't see God in everything, you can't see God in anything. Free the chains from your mind and the chains on your soul will melt away.

Start with the chains that are religion. It's just a form of slavery to keep you ignorant and subservient. Regardless of the religion you follow.

I'm a Spiritual Anarchist. I believe dearly in the creator of all things. God created man, man created religion.

Lose your religion and find the absolute joy, bestowed upon us all, by the creator. That joy is the very thing that religion has stolen from you.

Tithing isn't necessarily giving your money to a church, its giving your money to charity in God's name. It could be helping out a friend who lost his job and is having a rough time getting by. And 10% is just the bare minimum. True charity from the heart is part of God's law, and if you are walking in the Spirit, it brings joy to you to help others instead of being selfish with your money.

But yes, many "Christian" organizations have abused the tithe for their own selfish reasons, and the hypocrites will get theirs in the end.

God does'nt exist. This is'nt a theory its the truth. Theres absolutely no evidence to support his existance. He's entirely mythical, created to be used as a buffer for those who demand you act a certain way or think a certain way.

This way they can remove themselves by saying God wants you to act this way. So you dont feel like your bieng told what to do by some normal person. Heaven is the sweetner. The perfect lie. Do as God wishes or you wont go to Heaven. But you wont find out untill you die. How convenient.
You cant warn all the other fools who are falling for the same trick either. Perfect!

I suppose its better to have faith in something than nothing at all. I wish i was able to blindly believe in God the way people do, it would make my life a lot easier.

Instead i have to live with the harsh realitys of my own insignificance. But im cool with that. Your born you live and you die. no Angels, No harp music, no God.

Glad i could put a little hope in your hearts. Your very welcome

reply to post by ModestThought


excellent post & thread!


i answer YES to every question but the last.
no hell no ETERNAL DAMNATION not for anyone
there is only teaching and learning
and LOVE

i must ask, though, when you say omniscient do you really mean omnipotent?

omniscient means GOD is all knowing, all aware, having all knowledge
omnipotent means GOD is all powerful

omniscience doesn't interfere with free will.

omnipotence doesn't necessarily have to, either.
just because GOD has the power to control every detail in the universe doesn't mean GOD chooses to exercise that power.
GOD has the power to grant all life absolute free will, too
and the self-control to sit back and let it happen

and, in case of emergency, well, thank GOD for omnipotence!

reply to post by mrwupy


awesome post, mrwupy!!

Originally posted by ModestThought
The disciples were notorious for not understanding the True Meaning of the Words of their Teacher

• LOVE your neighbor as your SELF
  
• LOVE GOD
  
• LOVE your enemies
  
• judge NOT
  
• fear NOT
  
• forgive, forgive, FORGIVE
  

reply to post by ModestThought


I'm NOT a Theologist, not in my mind nor anyone elses...so quit reading my reply if you are targeting a particular sub-set of people.


the concept of 'God' encompases all the laws of the physical universe...
set down the structure we see as the 'Table of Elements',
God is the organizing & immuitability of the rules & laws of Physics, science, mathematics, the processes of life on planet earth, the engineer of the DNA code & all associated evolution....

God does in any way have or express human traits like love, judgement,or any of the other anthrophomorphic abilities, nor the cognitive reflexes of a human, animal or any possible alien lifeform.

God, with all those human characteristics, is a virtual creation of the religiously oriented, human mind,

thanks,