Question for the self proclaimed Theologists

Do you believe God is perfectly all loving? Do you believe God is perfectly omniscient? Do you believe in absolute and perfect free will of an individual soul? Do you believe God is perfectly Just? Do believe in Eternal damnation of that soul into hell (or a tormenting place like it)? If you answered yes to all those questions, first I ask you, would you ever sentence your own child to an eternity of suffering? No? Why? Because you love them and couldn't bear to see them in pain? Think of the love you have (or would have) for your child and multiply it by an astronomical number. That is the love God has for each and every one of us. It is perfect love. How could he possibly condemn any of his children to a place like hell. Why would an omniscient God even create a soul destined to spend an eternity in torment? You may say that free will gives us the choice to accept or reject him, but he knows our choice before we even make it. Is this a choice? The only way free will and a perfectly omniscient God can coexist is by allowing each individual to be involved in the creative process of the universe, allowing them to "make the choice before God knows the choice." Impossible you say? You are right. The only way this can happen is if We are a part of God, a direct part, a part involved in Creation. Ask yourself, would a perfectly Just God create something and then eternally condemn what He alone created? Does He not take responsibility for His actions? This is like you planning to have a child, but you know they will become a murderer, you chose to do so anyways, then when the murder occurs, you punish the child you brought into the world, knowing full well the evils the child would commit. If anything the blood is on your hands. Through this reasoning, the Perfectly Just God of Christianity (and other religions, I am just not as familiar with them) is either omniscient or we possess free will, both can never exist together. If He is omniscient, He is not perfectly just, if he is omniscient, we do not possess free will. If we are destined to be condemned for all eternity, but Created anyways, we are not truly loved. The perfect Love of God is out the window. Logically the only conclusion that can be drawn from the beliefs about the Christian God are 1.) God doesn't know everything or 2.) God doesn't Love us perfectly or 3.) we have no free will and therefore are not responsible for our actions or 4.) There is no Eternal damnation or 5.) We are a direct part of God and directly involved in the Creation (I'm not saying as individual souls. In any of the cases, the Christian beliefs about God have been twisted by the church, for what reason, I don't know. Any Thoughts?

(I believe in God, the Creator of the Universe, to me He is fact, this is not a thread of you to convince me or others otherwise, you will not succeed. I am trying to clear up some of the questions that have arisen from my studies, please respect that.)

May have put this in the wrong thread, sorry, move if you wish.

[edit on 26-12-2009 by ModestThought]

The spiritual war is a battle of free will, the souls of all people are basically being run through a giant spiritual sift, separating those who want Perfect Good(God), and those who don't, those who do not truly desire Perfect Good and are content with the Dual Good/Evil current reality, and so they accept some Evil as necessary and practice some Evil, or they actually want Perfect Evil and practice it.

In order for there to be perfect justice and a place of perfect good, a paradise, only those who choose to be humble and accept the mercy and cleansing of Perfect Good can go on to a place of perfect good. The Evil must be completely cleansed from a soul for it to be able to exist in a place of perfect good, because if one little bit of evil was allowed into a perfectly good place, it would no longer be perfectly good.

Those who choose against Perfect Good, in order for there to be perfect justice, must go to a place of perfect bad.

The only other option for perfect justice, is if the souls of those who chose against Perfect Good are taken out of reality, destroyed so that they cease to exist. Because if they continue to exist, it has to be in a place of perfect bad.

This may be why the Bible calls the final hell, the Second Death.



[edit on 26-12-2009 by Chainmaker]

reply to post by Chainmaker


Why would an all Loving God create a soul destined for destruction then?

I asked similar questions to a friend of mine who is a catholic priest. He told me something that I have found more and more christians believe in. He told me that hell is indeed a place that exists, but that there is probably no one there. He told me hell is where you go when consciously choose to reject God's eternal forgiveness, an offer that is extended freely to EVERYONE regardless of what they have done in their lives.

Seeing as how nobody would ever choose to go hell, then they would obviously go to heaven, but the weight of their sins is upon them as if you were to be standing in an almighty powerful, loving light; but to realise that you are filthy and quite underserving of it at the moment. The time you spend repenting for your sins is purgatory, and once you feel that you are ready to face the light when you feel metaphorically "clean" of your sins, then you go to heaven.

Personally, I don't believe any of this, but this is what I have been told christians believe in.

I personally believe that God is an all-loving omnipotent creator force that we cannot even conceive or come-close to imagining. WE ourselves deliver our own judgement, and through the laws of karma we relive our forthcoming lives in situations were this karma can be used as a tool for our own spiritual learning and growth.

In order for anyone to be able to choose Good, the option to choose Evil had to be there.

There would be no true free will if people couldn't choose against Good, against going on to paradise, and choose Evil instead.

In order for there to be a perfect place, a perfect reality, a Heaven populated by only perfectly good people who desired and chose out of free will Perfect Good, there had to be the other option.

Otherwise God would have created robots who weren't actually ever free to choose, and he didn't want robots, he wants a Heaven populated by people who WANT to be there, who CHOSE to be there.

People who want him, and choose to love Him.

That is what it is all about. God wants people to love and that love him back, but they could never truly love without the free will to choose to love.

reply to post by Chainmaker


Do you really believe an all powerful Eternal Being would be so petty as to not love his creation because it didn't love him back? Also Perfect Love does not require Love in return.

Hell and heaven are a state of mind
When I (self ) no longer function
When my body dies

I am no longer an individual self
I am one
I am with out reflection
I am all that is

The good and the bad

No longer exist

And neither is there a heaven or a hell
For I have no reflection
And there for no judgment


The divine being is ignorant of itself
For in being one ....there is no other
There is no reflection

That which is known as god ...is a state of mind
A belief
A thought
A reflection....
That creates duality
That creates a judgment upon itself

the illusion is .....there is no other
no soul ..no self ..
to be punished or destroyed

and to top it all off

I cannot die ....for I have not been born

The Catholics don't follow their own Bible, they add all kinds of things to it and subtract all kinds of things from it, and the above idea of no one going to Hell is certainly not Biblical.

If someone chooses to believe that, then they should not call themselves Christian, because Jesus clearly spoke about hell and people being there.

Jesus said that MOST people are not going to Heaven.

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

The only problem I have with the Bible is that it was compiled by men who decided which books to include. They chose which writings about Jesus made the cut. And the Bible all Christians follow originated from the Catholic Bible. (Only talking about the New Testament) I would like to be there for the entire conversation Jesus was having when this was said. I'm sure the context would put a different view on it. The disciples were notorious for not understanding the True Meaning of the Words of their Teacher

There are seperate paths of the will.

There is the will of man, then there is also the will for mankind.
If you have only will for yourself and disregard the wills of others you are in the will of man. This is a primal will. Animalistic, it works only for the quickest fix, always in a rush...

There is the will of "The Greater Power" or "God" etc. let's say 1.

When connected to the path of the 1 your life is in synchronicity, you see everything under a different light. Your will is in effect, everything that happens will flow together, it will be so obvious to you when you are on this path that you feel crazy when others don't notice the same things. Fearless, true and strong. Stay on this path of god's will and you shall be fit with the most powerful wisdom and even if you have innumerable enemies you shall have no fear, as they will crumble before their own inequities.

We are god, together as one, life is simply the process of 1 filtering the bad from the good.
The seperation.


[edit on 27-12-2009 by Ostendo Keter]

[edit on 27-12-2009 by Ostendo Keter]

Originally posted by ModestThought
reply to post by Chainmaker

 

Do you really believe an all powerful Eternal Being would be so petty as to not love his creation because it didn't love him back? Also Perfect Love does not require Love in return.

God does love all of us, and has provided an opportunity for all of us to be saved, and has demonstrated his Perfect Love by coming down here and being tortured and murdered to save us, to show us his Perfect Mercy, to allow us the chance to be cleansed of our Evil.

He will still love Adolf Hitler the day he throws Adolf's soul into the spiritual lake of fire that will destroy it, even though he will despise Adolf's actions and Adolph's choice not to love Perfect Good, and he will take no pleasure from the fact that Adolph had to go away in order for Perfect Justice to take place and allow those who loved Perfect Good to be able to live in eternal paradise.

If you don't love God, you don't love Perfect Good.

If you don't love Perfect Good, you cannot ever go to a perfectly good place.

You could hate God for giving us free will, and use it as an excuse to pursue Evil, or you could love him for giving us free will, and use your free will to love God back and try to emulate his Perfect Love and Perfect Mercy.

reply to post by Chainmaker


I don't think you are following. Why and how could an all Loving God create a being with free will while knowing every exact detail of their life before they even choose. That is not free will.

If your own child, your baby whom you raised, chose not to Love you, would you kill them. This is essentially what you are saying God chooses to do to us.

Originally posted by Chainmaker

Originally posted by ModestThought
reply to post by Chainmaker

 

He will still love Adolf Hitler the day he throws Adolf's soul into the spiritual lake of fire that will destroy it, even though he will despise Adolf's actions and Adolph's choice not to love Perfect Good, and he will take no pleasure from the fact that Adolph had to go away in order for Perfect Justice to take place and allow those who loved Perfect Good to be able to live in eternal paradise.

God created Hitler knowing what he was going to do, if anyone should be condemned shouldn't it ultimately be God? Wouldn't He he be responsible for every act of evil Hitler committed?

Originally posted by ModestThought
The only problem I have with the Bible is that it was compiled by men who decided which books to include. They chose which writings about Jesus made the cut. And the Bible all Christians follow originated from the Catholic Bible. (Only talking about the New Testament) I would like to be there for the entire conversation Jesus was having when this was said. I'm sure the context would put a different view on it. The disciples were notorious for not understanding the True Meaning of the Words of their Teacher

The New Testament canon was agreed upon by the very early Catholic Church, however prior to that the 4 gospels were being used by nearly all Christians, except the Gnostics, who were pagans and had their own false pagan books about Jesus.

The Catholics then went on to try to keep the Bible out of the hands of the common man, making it illegal to translate it, and giving only their priestly hierarchy(which is not Biblical either) the power to read and interpret it and over the years so many doctrines have been added and changed by the Catholics that it is utterly ridiculous.

Not many people like the bare bones Biblical doctrine of Jesus, not even the Catholics. It just pisses people off.

It pissed people off so bad when Jesus was here preaching it that they murdered him for it.

"Don't tell me you are the Son of God, Jesus"

"Don't tell me that everyone is going to hell that doesn't repent, Jesus"

"Don't tell me I shouldn't be doing , Jesus"

"Don't tell me you are the only way to heaven, Jesus"

"I should be able to get to heaven all by myself because I'm not that bad, Jesus"

Most people can't stand Perfect Good, so they will choose the Wide Path.

Originally posted by ModestThought

God created Hitler knowing what he was going to do, if anyone should be condemned shouldn't it ultimately be God? Wouldn't He he be responsible for every act of evil Hitler committed?

Nope, because Adolf made his choices, not God, just like you make your choices, God doesn't make them for you.

But God did know who was going to choose Perfect Good, who would go to Heaven, before he created anything. He calls those people the "elect"

The whole of history including the negative is necessary for the end result of the elect who chose Perfect Good getting Everlasting Life in Paradise with Perfect Good Himself.

Free will. Choose your alignment. You get to choose, but God already knows what you will choose.

Can't really comprehend it. Can't comprehend infinity either.

So stop trying to comprehend God and just HAVE FAITH that he is God, he made you, he is Perfect Good and he loves you with Perfect Love, and accept his gift of salvation through his Perfect Mercy and try to emulate his perfect love and mercy in your life to other people, and take your place as one of the elect, and think about how great it will be to be in a Perfectly Good place after the Evil is purged.

Or hate God and perish.

reply to post by ModestThought

Do you believe God is perfectly all loving?

Depends on what you mean by "love."

Much of what humans call "love" is really just mutual fulfillment of need. You feed your dog and give him attention so he "loves" you. You care for your husband/wife and make them feel happy so they "love" you.

I would describe "divine love" as more like "full awareness combined with acceptance" The entirety of your being is encompassed by god. There is nothing about you that is unknown to god. And you are accepted. Completely. Your deepest fears and shames, all about you that embarasses you, all that you wish you could change about yourself, god knows...and accepts, fully and freely without judgement.

You are what you are. And that's ok.

Do you believe God is perfectly omniscient?

Sort of by definition.

Do you believe in absolute and perfect free will of an individual soul?

...in principal, yes...but in practice, limited awareness "limits" free will. Think of it this way: you may make any choice you're able to, but it's difficult to choose possibilities you don't even know about.

would you ever sentence your own child to an eternity of suffering?

Me personally, no. But the question is slightly off-base. Let's try it differently: If you were a playwright, would you ever write a story in which your main character died a horrible, painful death of suffering and misery? Well...you might. Does that mean you "love" the character any less?

Through this reasoning, the Perfectly Just God of Christianity

...so perhaps the "Perfectly Just God of Christianity" is a limiting concept?

Don't rail against theology just because christian thinking is inadequete.






[edit on 27-12-2009 by LordBucket]

The Bible does say something about damnation and eternal suffering. However, if you read further, it does seem to contradict itself when it indicates that there will be a death of the soul. Which in a nutshell means that if you don't obey the Christian god's commandments then the soul not go back to that god and thus die/cease to exist/no more afterlife for you.

As for us being the children of God. It has some oddities in it. There are passages in the Bible that indicates that we are the children of God. Then again, it is only Adam that is the real creation/pet of God. And the rest of humanity is Adam's offspring. So does that make God our grandpa? There's another catch to this.

Once Adam and Eve took a bite from the thing that has the knowledge of Good and Evil, they were banished to Earth hence they become of Earth and no longer of spirit. Once this happened. God has no means of bringing us back to Him and Eden.

Before I proceed. There's a common misunderstaning due to the lack of reading of the Bible and its associated pseupigraphia (sic). Eden is not on Earth nor is it of Earth. It is on the Third Heaven where the angels tend it.

When Adam and Eve became of Earth they became out of God's jurisdiction. Let's just call this God's failed experiments. However, instead of abandoning our spirit, he sent commands and some other folks to "save" our souls.

With the above, there's another catch. God made things that are imperfect and God didn't stop the serpent from tempting Eve. It's odd. How come someone who is omnipotent make a mistake such as this. I have no idea. Does that mean that God isn't omnipotent. Probably. Does that God is sadistic. Probably.

The deeper you go in the Bible the more odd it becomes. Then again, there are a number of mistranslations on the KJV and the other popular Bibles. Unfortunately, I'd probably stop working in order to find everything there.

reply to post by Chainmaker

In order for anyone to be able to choose Good,
the option to choose Evil had to be there.

The question of choosing good or evil is largely irrelevant.

God wants people to love and that love him back, but they could never truly love without the free will to choose to love.

...nor could they "truly love" god without knowing god.

Imagine a married couple. And let us say that the man is cheating on the woman. Sleeping with othe woman behind her back. Her friends even. And with other men. And he kicks dogs when she's not around. And he's also a serial murderer. But she doesn't know about any of this. She only knows about his church-going facade. And she insists that she loves him.

Does she?

I say no. She may be in love with the illusion she has...in love with her own mental fantasy that she associates with him, but she doesn't know who he really is. She is deluded.

Similarly, how can you possibly love god without knowing god? And...god is an omniscient consciousness. God knows everything, right? So...every rape and murder and pain and misery and death and anguish...every atrocity, every mother who abandoned a child, every psycopath who ate someone alive...god knows in complete, vivid deatil every possible thing to be known about these things. Including the thoughts, motivations and caried out actions of those who committed these acts. Oh, yes...god knows the mind of the saint, but also the mind of psycopath.

The "omni" part of "omniscience" is pretty clear about that.

And so I ask...if you know only the "good" that you want to perceive in god, aren't you just as deluded as the woman married to the serial murderer? How can you claim to love god when you're living in delusion?


[edit on 27-12-2009 by LordBucket]

reply to post by Unregistered

With the above, there's another catch. God made things that are imperfect
and God didn't stop the serpent from tempting Eve. It's odd. How come
someone who is omnipotent make a mistake such as this. I have no idea.
Does that mean that God isn't omnipotent. Probably. Does that God is sadistic. Probably.

Let me offer you another perspetive: in the story of the Little Red Riding Hood, there is a big bad wolf. Does that detract from the story? Does there being a big bad wolf somehow make the story "less perfect?" No. Not at all. The big bad wolf is integral to the story. Oh, sure...you could write a story about a little girl who delivers bread to her grandmother and then goes home. The end. And that would be ok. But it would be a different story.

The existence of evil is not necessarily a mistake. Nor does it make the author a sadist.


[edit on 27-12-2009 by LordBucket]

So if jesus was blessed with all sorts of knowledge and stuff why couldnt that be given to EVERY baby at birth.

There are so many babys drowning is buckets and stopping their hearts with light sockets. Im sure glad god decided a baby boy who just saw his second birthday DESERVED to be crushed by a car pulling out of a driveway. Great lesson..... O GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A DEAD BABY!!!!!!!!!!!

Could you imagine the pain and the horror? Haivng fun playing in the grass then moving the the drive way by you dads car to play with a toy... could you imagine the frightening noise of a car starting up and within seconds a massive amount of pressure presses down on your back and all your organs are pushed out you mouth. Think of the mother and the father witnessing the aftermath of a moment of carelessness. A carefree moment and a once happy memory now covered with the blood of an infant.

I can.... and it makes me wish i could reach through this screen.

[edit on 27-12-2009 by Wertdagf]