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India: Ancient Superpower
page: 11share:
Sunsky,
If you don't mind I would like to respond to your post in the other thread(India: Ancient superpower part 2) because it is very relevant to Part 3: Indian colonization of the world. I will say for now, Buddhism did not in fact spread due to China, but it was spread by India by sea through its vast maritime empire that colonized South East Asia long before the common era.
I do not doubt Project's education at all. I do doubt his interpretations of the Quran though. Not because his views are not representative of the majority of Muslims in the world and Islamic religious leaders, but because I have read 10 different translations of the Quran myself and his interpretations of finding scientific facts within it far by my estimation are very far-fetched and contrast with other claims made in that text which are unscientific(The Earth is flat like a bed held down by pegs for instance) I dismiss similar claims made by Hindus looking for scientific facts in the Vedas.
It is not the case that I am completely adverse to scientific facts appearing in holy scripture like the Quran and the Vedas, but I want real evidence of this, not some whimsical interpretations.
I really appreciate your compliments. Again, I will reiterate I am not dismissing Project because the majority do not agree with him, for if I did that I would be a hypocrite. I am dismissing him because his claims are unsubstantiated and contradictory to my own research into Islam and reading of the Quran and its various translations. I have not found any scientific content in the Quran or esoteric content. I have always considered Islam to be a religion only of faith, not of scientific thinking - philosophy or logic, as I consider Hinduism and Buddhism.
If you don't mind I would like to respond to your post in the other thread(India: Ancient superpower part 2) because it is very relevant to Part 3: Indian colonization of the world. I will say for now, Buddhism did not in fact spread due to China, but it was spread by India by sea through its vast maritime empire that colonized South East Asia long before the common era.
Actually, I can attest that they are.
Generally speaking, what I see from Project is a well educated guy/gal whose explaining Islam in a good way. Obviously there would be a monumental difference between the way he/she explains it, rather than the majority of religious clerics who have no real education and are simply speaking on behalf of government for political purposes more than anything, and therein lies the biggest problem; influence (ie; the people whose voices are loudest).
I do not doubt Project's education at all. I do doubt his interpretations of the Quran though. Not because his views are not representative of the majority of Muslims in the world and Islamic religious leaders, but because I have read 10 different translations of the Quran myself and his interpretations of finding scientific facts within it far by my estimation are very far-fetched and contrast with other claims made in that text which are unscientific(The Earth is flat like a bed held down by pegs for instance) I dismiss similar claims made by Hindus looking for scientific facts in the Vedas.
It is not the case that I am completely adverse to scientific facts appearing in holy scripture like the Quran and the Vedas, but I want real evidence of this, not some whimsical interpretations.
This is certainly not localized to Islam. I have noted that you explain Hinduism and India's history far better than most others I've encountered, Indigo. The same consideration should apply to yourself.
I really appreciate your compliments. Again, I will reiterate I am not dismissing Project because the majority do not agree with him, for if I did that I would be a hypocrite. I am dismissing him because his claims are unsubstantiated and contradictory to my own research into Islam and reading of the Quran and its various translations. I have not found any scientific content in the Quran or esoteric content. I have always considered Islam to be a religion only of faith, not of scientific thinking - philosophy or logic, as I consider Hinduism and Buddhism.
reply to post by Indigo_Child
My opinion is science has its own doctrine in a way, with its own many followers, and with many flaws.
Correlating spiritual values of any religion with scientific evidence is (in my estimation) akin to upgrading a bandwagon to a full blown muscle truck guzzling on oil. Theres really no point.
I think a better attempt would be to modernize certain concepts relative to spirituality and the core values expressed with said religion. But not through science, but rather a simple redefinition in modern terms.
For example, is metaphysics considered valid in science? of course not, its mostly considered nonsense or "pseudoscience", but the preponderance of evidence suggests otherwise. Metaphysics is probably real (I know it is, personally), even though it somewhat contradicts that "other" doctrine.
Likewise for Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism.
On a side note, I applaud your efforts in dealing with 10 translations of the Quran, but TBH, there's nothing even closely comparable to the text in original language, which I have read in full, and with that I have argued before that translations are always subject to interpretation, in other words; you're only gonna get the interpretation of said translator. And when you look at those interpretations, correlate it with the original words, with a brief look at the background of the translator (often uneducated), you'll find a completely different text book and a totally different message.
Just my opinion though, everyone is free to theirs.
Please keep up the great contributions, its very enlightening, and my sincere apologies for off-topic discourse
Peace
My opinion is science has its own doctrine in a way, with its own many followers, and with many flaws.
Correlating spiritual values of any religion with scientific evidence is (in my estimation) akin to upgrading a bandwagon to a full blown muscle truck guzzling on oil. Theres really no point.
I think a better attempt would be to modernize certain concepts relative to spirituality and the core values expressed with said religion. But not through science, but rather a simple redefinition in modern terms.
For example, is metaphysics considered valid in science? of course not, its mostly considered nonsense or "pseudoscience", but the preponderance of evidence suggests otherwise. Metaphysics is probably real (I know it is, personally), even though it somewhat contradicts that "other" doctrine.
Likewise for Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism.
On a side note, I applaud your efforts in dealing with 10 translations of the Quran, but TBH, there's nothing even closely comparable to the text in original language, which I have read in full, and with that I have argued before that translations are always subject to interpretation, in other words; you're only gonna get the interpretation of said translator. And when you look at those interpretations, correlate it with the original words, with a brief look at the background of the translator (often uneducated), you'll find a completely different text book and a totally different message.
Just my opinion though, everyone is free to theirs.
Please keep up the great contributions, its very enlightening, and my sincere apologies for off-topic discourse
Peace
reply to post by Majorion
It is true what they say that science is bordered by metaphysics on both sides. Science cannot escape metaphysics. It already has a metaphysical framework because science is based on human theories. Those theories may be supported by actual empirical evidence, but the theories are not proven by the evidence. Like yourself I know metaphysics is true.
Hinduism is a metaphysical religion as opposed to a scientific religion if you define science as it is today. However, it based on the same vigorous scientific thinking that underpin scientific theory. In others its metaphysics is scientific. Its key notions such as all pervading spirit, reincarnation, meditation, chakras and astral planes are not standalone, but are predicated by the complex Hindu metaphysics. It all makes sense in the system. The system itself is based on observations.
As I said from what I have read of the Quran there is no metaphysics, scientific and logical thinking. It is all faith based. I do admit, however, my understanding of the Quran is entirely dependent on English translations of it. Nonetheless, all translations I have read have relatively read the same way. Most of these translations are rendered by Arabic scholars. So I doubt your claim that if you read it in Arabic it would be absolutely different. I am sure it would be more authentic, but I doubt the content would be the opposite of the translations.
The reason that translations of the Vedas are controversial is because there are contrasting translations depending on which translation you read. Secondly, Vedic Sanskrit is a very archaic language and therefore words are hard to define precisely. Some words have 20 diffeent meanings. The Sanskrit root "go" can mean cow, ray of light, energy, senses, gods amony many others. Thirdly, there is evidence of deliberate distortion by certain translators such as European ones(Muller etc)
There is considerably less controversy when it comes to the Quran. If the current translations were wrong, it would have been pointed out by now. The claims you see of scientific content in the Quran are rather interpretations than translations. They will take something like "Earth is shaped like an egg" and then read heliocentric theory of gravitation into it. They will take, "the human fetus is made out of bones clothed with flesh" and read embryology into it, and "in the beginning was smoke" and read Big bang thoery into it. They are dubous attempts and obviously not taken seriously by educated people.
It is true what they say that science is bordered by metaphysics on both sides. Science cannot escape metaphysics. It already has a metaphysical framework because science is based on human theories. Those theories may be supported by actual empirical evidence, but the theories are not proven by the evidence. Like yourself I know metaphysics is true.
Hinduism is a metaphysical religion as opposed to a scientific religion if you define science as it is today. However, it based on the same vigorous scientific thinking that underpin scientific theory. In others its metaphysics is scientific. Its key notions such as all pervading spirit, reincarnation, meditation, chakras and astral planes are not standalone, but are predicated by the complex Hindu metaphysics. It all makes sense in the system. The system itself is based on observations.
As I said from what I have read of the Quran there is no metaphysics, scientific and logical thinking. It is all faith based. I do admit, however, my understanding of the Quran is entirely dependent on English translations of it. Nonetheless, all translations I have read have relatively read the same way. Most of these translations are rendered by Arabic scholars. So I doubt your claim that if you read it in Arabic it would be absolutely different. I am sure it would be more authentic, but I doubt the content would be the opposite of the translations.
The reason that translations of the Vedas are controversial is because there are contrasting translations depending on which translation you read. Secondly, Vedic Sanskrit is a very archaic language and therefore words are hard to define precisely. Some words have 20 diffeent meanings. The Sanskrit root "go" can mean cow, ray of light, energy, senses, gods amony many others. Thirdly, there is evidence of deliberate distortion by certain translators such as European ones(Muller etc)
There is considerably less controversy when it comes to the Quran. If the current translations were wrong, it would have been pointed out by now. The claims you see of scientific content in the Quran are rather interpretations than translations. They will take something like "Earth is shaped like an egg" and then read heliocentric theory of gravitation into it. They will take, "the human fetus is made out of bones clothed with flesh" and read embryology into it, and "in the beginning was smoke" and read Big bang thoery into it. They are dubous attempts and obviously not taken seriously by educated people.
reply to post by Indigo_Child
As far as I know, India did have a cool architectural development, and some pretty sophisticated philosophy. But all they really did was lay a few stones that everyone else built off of, and they themselves took from those that took their stuff and made a few better stuff. I would rank India in between Greek and Rome. Rome being a bit higher than Greek advancement. They are hardly the best, but not as bad as Egypt. And yes, I do say "as bad as Egypt" For all the talk and what not, all Egypt did was close itself as a society and develop a few advanced philosophies. Egypt did not do that much as people claim they did. India did a hell of a lot more, and the Romans did the most. This is all, of course, in terms of ancient civilization. Above Rome is Byzantium, which in turn is equal to Ottoman. The Renaissance in Europe mark the real "end" of that era of antiquity. The only nation to continue past was the ottomans. lol.
But back to the point, India's just above average. Sorry, but they did not do that much. Certainly a lot, but not that much.
As far as I know, India did have a cool architectural development, and some pretty sophisticated philosophy. But all they really did was lay a few stones that everyone else built off of, and they themselves took from those that took their stuff and made a few better stuff. I would rank India in between Greek and Rome. Rome being a bit higher than Greek advancement. They are hardly the best, but not as bad as Egypt. And yes, I do say "as bad as Egypt" For all the talk and what not, all Egypt did was close itself as a society and develop a few advanced philosophies. Egypt did not do that much as people claim they did. India did a hell of a lot more, and the Romans did the most. This is all, of course, in terms of ancient civilization. Above Rome is Byzantium, which in turn is equal to Ottoman. The Renaissance in Europe mark the real "end" of that era of antiquity. The only nation to continue past was the ottomans. lol.
But back to the point, India's just above average. Sorry, but they did not do that much. Certainly a lot, but not that much.
This is all, of course, in terms of ancient civilization. Above Rome is Byzantium, which in turn is equal to Ottoman. The Renaissance in Europe mark the real "end" of that era of antiquity. The only nation to continue past was the ottomans. lol.
But back to the point, India's just above average. Sorry, but they did not do that much. Certainly a lot, but not that much.
What do you mean they did not "do" that much. Do what? Can you give examples what the Romans and Ottomons actually did in science, mathematics, engineering, philosophy and technology which is better than the Indians.
I have already shown that India had a larger share of the GDP in the world even during the height of the Roman and the Ottomon empire. Even Roman records agree.
reply to post by Indigo_Child
The amount you make does not equal how good you are. I'll give you modern china for a perfect example.
Mathematically they were wonders. But you are not judged by what you know, you are judged by what you do with it. The smartest man on Earth is nothing if he dies with all his knowledge and never uses it. They invented our wondrous number system, but it was the Romans, Arabs, and ottomans that did anything with that. And for that matter, it was the Americans and Europeans after the ancient era who did anything productive with it. We must also consider the fact that India is not one thing in particular, but many numerous people banded together. They were conquered by others and those people stole the knowledge and did better things with it. But again, that was after the ancient era.
When speaking of the era between the foundation of civilization, to the ending of the dark ages, when civilization really got it's head on strait, the simple fact is that India simply did not do that much as others did. Again, they started quite a few things, but it was others, many eons afterward, who did anything with it. If you know a lot but don't innovate and create with it, you're not advanced. Human quality and achievement is judged in your innovative nature and ability to create new, better things with what you know. I the ancient times, your advancements were judged in your architectural developments, your philosophy depth, and your tools. If we look at it as that, then India only had philosophy depth, a few good tools, and architectural developments which Greece had started, but that India took and made some pretty awesome stuff with. India thus has 6/10 in architecture, 8/10 in philosophy, and 5/10 in terms of tools. this ranks in terms of how well they developed and innovated these things. I mean, the first battery w2as found in ancient Persia, which at that time was heavily dependent on eastern creation, thus that battery had some form of Indian thought behind it. But that never got anywhere. Now yes, they were high, but Rome and Ottomon were higher, as testifying to the fact that Rome still holds the world's greatest Domed structures, and typologies, and continued to be innovated. Greek was even more, but not as much elsewhere, so they rank lower than India. The fact is that the ottomans and Byzantium are the highest in their era because they were the most innovative architecturally and tool-wise. They were the first to utilize cannons in advanced weaponry. They were the first to theorize negative space in architectural terms, a clear aspect of abstract thought. And they were sophisticated in their philosophy as Islam is one of the most in depth religions, up there with Christianity and Hinduism. India did have some negative space abstracts, but no where as developed as the ottomans, who hold the crown in terms of abstract thought and development. It was Islam that took what India started and ran wild with it.
Again, your quality as a human is how you innovate and create, not how much you know.
[edit on 31-12-2009 by Gorman91]
The amount you make does not equal how good you are. I'll give you modern china for a perfect example.
Mathematically they were wonders. But you are not judged by what you know, you are judged by what you do with it. The smartest man on Earth is nothing if he dies with all his knowledge and never uses it. They invented our wondrous number system, but it was the Romans, Arabs, and ottomans that did anything with that. And for that matter, it was the Americans and Europeans after the ancient era who did anything productive with it. We must also consider the fact that India is not one thing in particular, but many numerous people banded together. They were conquered by others and those people stole the knowledge and did better things with it. But again, that was after the ancient era.
When speaking of the era between the foundation of civilization, to the ending of the dark ages, when civilization really got it's head on strait, the simple fact is that India simply did not do that much as others did. Again, they started quite a few things, but it was others, many eons afterward, who did anything with it. If you know a lot but don't innovate and create with it, you're not advanced. Human quality and achievement is judged in your innovative nature and ability to create new, better things with what you know. I the ancient times, your advancements were judged in your architectural developments, your philosophy depth, and your tools. If we look at it as that, then India only had philosophy depth, a few good tools, and architectural developments which Greece had started, but that India took and made some pretty awesome stuff with. India thus has 6/10 in architecture, 8/10 in philosophy, and 5/10 in terms of tools. this ranks in terms of how well they developed and innovated these things. I mean, the first battery w2as found in ancient Persia, which at that time was heavily dependent on eastern creation, thus that battery had some form of Indian thought behind it. But that never got anywhere. Now yes, they were high, but Rome and Ottomon were higher, as testifying to the fact that Rome still holds the world's greatest Domed structures, and typologies, and continued to be innovated. Greek was even more, but not as much elsewhere, so they rank lower than India. The fact is that the ottomans and Byzantium are the highest in their era because they were the most innovative architecturally and tool-wise. They were the first to utilize cannons in advanced weaponry. They were the first to theorize negative space in architectural terms, a clear aspect of abstract thought. And they were sophisticated in their philosophy as Islam is one of the most in depth religions, up there with Christianity and Hinduism. India did have some negative space abstracts, but no where as developed as the ottomans, who hold the crown in terms of abstract thought and development. It was Islam that took what India started and ran wild with it.
Again, your quality as a human is how you innovate and create, not how much you know.
[edit on 31-12-2009 by Gorman91]
I think you need to start supporting your claims. A lot of your
comments are based on almost no reseach at all:
Read more here
Does this look like they did nothing with them?
Mathematics was already a high developed science in India before Islam even existed. Many of these texts were translated into Arabic by Islamic mathematicians. This is why they called mathematics a Hindu science.
[edit on 31-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]
comments are based on almost no reseach at all:
They invented our wondrous number system, but it was the Romans, Arabs, and ottomans that did anything with that.
Some of the areas of mathematics studied in ancient and medieval India include the following:
Arithmetic: Decimal system, Negative numbers (see Brahmagupta), Zero (see Hindu-Arabic numeral system), the modern positional notation numeral system, Floating point numbers (see Kerala School), Number theory, Infinity (see Yajur Veda), Transfinite numbers, Irrational numbers (see Shulba Sutras)
Geometry: Square roots (see Bakhshali approximation), Cube roots (see Mahavira), Pythagorean triples (see Sulba Sutras; Baudhayana and Apastamba state the Pythagorean theorem without proof), Transformation (see Panini), Pascal's triangle (see Pingala)
Algebra: Quadratic equations (see Sulba Sutras, Aryabhata, and Brahmagupta), Cubic equations and Quartic equations (biquadratic equations) (see Mahavira and Bhāskara II)
Mathematical logic: Formal grammars, formal language theory, the Panini-Backus form (see Panini), Recursion (see Panini)
General mathematics: Fibonacci numbers (see Pingala), Earliest forms of Morse code (see Pingala), Logarithms, indices (see Jaina mathematics), Algorithms, Algorism (see Aryabhata and Brahmagupta)
Trigonometry: Trigonometric functions (see Surya Siddhanta and Aryabhata), Trigonometric series (see Madhava and Kerala School)
Aryabhata I
Aryabhata (476-550) wrote the Aryabhatiya. He described the important fundamental principles of mathematics in 332 shlokas. The treatise contained:
Quadratic equations
Trigonometry
The value of π, correct to 4 decimal places.
Aryabhata also wrote the Arya Siddhanta, which is now lost. Aryabhata's contributions include:
Trigonometry:
Introduced the trigonometric functions.
Defined the sine (jya) as the modern relationship between half an angle and half a chord.
Defined the cosine (kojya).
Defined the versine (ukramajya).
Defined the inverse sine (otkram jya).
Gave methods of calculating their approximate numerical values.
Contains the earliest tables of sine, cosine and versine values, in 3.75° intervals from 0° to 90°, to 4 decimal places of accuracy.
Contains the trigonometric formula sin (n + 1) x - sin nx = sin nx - sin (n - 1) x - (1/225)sin nx.
Spherical trigonometry.
Arithmetic:
Continued fractions.
Algebra:
Solutions of simultaneous quadratic equations.
Whole number solutions of linear equations by a method equivalent to the modern method.
General solution of the indeterminate linear equation .
Mathematical astronomy:
Proposed for the first time, a heliocentric solar system with the planets spinning on their axes and following an elliptical orbit around the Sun.
Accurate calculations for astronomical constants, such as the:
Solar eclipse.
Lunar eclipse.
The formula for the sum of the cubes, which was an important step in the development of integral calculus.[63]
Calculus:
Infinitesimals:
In the course of developing a precise mapping of the lunar eclipse, Aryabhatta was obliged to introduce the concept of infinitesimals (tatkalika gati) to designate the near instantaneous motion of the moon.[64]
Differential equations:
He expressed the near instantaneous motion of the moon in the form of a basic differential equation.[64]
Exponential function:
He used the exponential function e in his differential equation of the near instantaneous motion of the moon.[64]
Varahamihira
Varahamihira (505-587) produced the Pancha Siddhanta (The Five Astronomical Canons). He made important contributions to trigonometry, including sine and cosine tables to 4 decimal places of accuracy and the following formulas relating sine and cosine functions:
Brahmagupta, in his astronomical work Brāhma Sphuṭa Siddhānta (628 CE), included two chapters (12 and 18) devoted to these fields. Chapter 12, containing 66 Sanskrit verses, was divided into two sections: "basic operations" (including cube roots, fractions, ratio and proportion, and barter) and "practical mathematics" (including mixture, mathematical series, plane figures, stacking bricks, sawing of timber, and piling of grain).[66] In the latter section, he stated his famous theorem on the diagonals of a cyclic quadrilateral:[66]
Bhaskara I
Bhaskara I (c. 600-680) expanded the work of Aryabhata in his books titled Mahabhaskariya, Aryabhattiya Bhashya and Laghu Bhaskariya. He produced:
Solutions of indeterminate equations.
A rational approximation of the sine function.
A formula for calculating the sine of an acute angle without the use of a table, correct to 2 decimal places
Mahavira
Mahavira Acharya (c. 800-870) from Karnataka, the last of the notable Jain mathematicians, lived in the 9th century and was patronised by the Rashtrakuta king Amoghavarsha. He wrote a book titled Ganit Saar Sangraha on numerical mathematics, and also wrote treatises about a wide range of mathematical topics. These include the mathematics of:
Zero.
Squares.
Cubes.
square roots, cube roots, and the series extending beyond these.
Plane geometry [disambiguation needed].
Solid geometry.
Problems relating to the casting of shadows.
Formulae derived to calculate the area of an ellipse and quadrilateral inside a circle
Mahavira also:
Asserted that the square root of a negative number did not exist
Gave the sum of a series whose terms are squares of an arithmetical progression, and gave empirical rules for area and perimeter of an ellipse.
Solved cubic equations.
Solved quartic equations.
Solved some quintic equations and higher-order polynomials.
Gave the general solutions of the higher order polynomial equations:
Solved indeterminate quadratic equations.
Solved indeterminate cubic equations.
Solved indeterminate higher order equations
Read more here
Does this look like they did nothing with them?
Mathematics was already a high developed science in India before Islam even existed. Many of these texts were translated into Arabic by Islamic mathematicians. This is why they called mathematics a Hindu science.
[edit on 31-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]
But again, these are discoveries, but not used for really that much. You can clearly see these mathematics at work in some Indian architecture, and
therefore it is of significant development. However, there was no innovation of this. From the first stupas to those complex pyramidal structures, the
same typology remains. It's as if there's a sudden halt in advancement. And as such, they are not as high as the ottomans. The ottomans took the
complex abstract though in the hagia sofia and developed it over the course of many centuries. They trained men as slaves who would be part of their
oligarchy (basically conscripted education) who studied Byzantium creation and developed it, with the crowning achievements being that of Sinan at the
end of the dark ages. The Romans and Byzantium developed thousands of years of development, picking off where Greece ended. I just took a whole course
on this subject matter. I understand what you mean. In a 40+ chapter book, 2 were on India. I could tell from their architecture that the deserved
more, but they clearly did not deserve more than what Rome and ottomans had.
India took off with many complex underground designs which deserve credit. Not many civilizations back then could do it. However, again, we judge on advancements. Civilization, and for that matter, innovation, is what makes you great. You list all the things India discovered. They are grand, with the most innovation being in star charts and astronomy. However in most other things you listed, they merely started things which other people advanced. Most of these mathematics were not even able to be used in terms of innovation until the modern era with computers and advanced technologies. However, one must write down in history who started.
Again, I 100% agree that India is not recorded in history as much as it should. But in terms of innovation and advancements, they simply were not as good as Rome or Byzantium or the Ottomans. All these civilizations could not and simply would not have gotten as far as they did without Indian discoveries. However, India did not accomplish the innovations that the middle east and Europe did.
Again, to reinforce your own point, look at this appendix of my book:
Isn't that disgusting? India did a lot, and gets so little credit. However, they should be recorded as such. The pro generators of everything from the battery, to math, to even the English language. LoL, even Stargate payed homage to them by stating India was the first nations that the "ancients" went to to teach their ways. But again, they knew a lot. The rest of the world took what they learned, and innovated, thus making them more advanced.
Just know this, being powerful and knowing a lot does not make you advanced. Being advanced means you took what you knew and made crap loads of knowledge.
[edit on 31-12-2009 by Gorman91]
India took off with many complex underground designs which deserve credit. Not many civilizations back then could do it. However, again, we judge on advancements. Civilization, and for that matter, innovation, is what makes you great. You list all the things India discovered. They are grand, with the most innovation being in star charts and astronomy. However in most other things you listed, they merely started things which other people advanced. Most of these mathematics were not even able to be used in terms of innovation until the modern era with computers and advanced technologies. However, one must write down in history who started.
Again, I 100% agree that India is not recorded in history as much as it should. But in terms of innovation and advancements, they simply were not as good as Rome or Byzantium or the Ottomans. All these civilizations could not and simply would not have gotten as far as they did without Indian discoveries. However, India did not accomplish the innovations that the middle east and Europe did.
Again, to reinforce your own point, look at this appendix of my book:
Isn't that disgusting? India did a lot, and gets so little credit. However, they should be recorded as such. The pro generators of everything from the battery, to math, to even the English language. LoL, even Stargate payed homage to them by stating India was the first nations that the "ancients" went to to teach their ways. But again, they knew a lot. The rest of the world took what they learned, and innovated, thus making them more advanced.
Just know this, being powerful and knowing a lot does not make you advanced. Being advanced means you took what you knew and made crap loads of knowledge.
[edit on 31-12-2009 by Gorman91]
Originally posted by Indigo_Child
reply to post by Project2501
Project I think we are going way off-topic now. Your esoteric views on Islam are certainly not representative of the vast majority of Muslims, they are based on very particular interpretations. Some of which I personally think are farfetched.
For the record I have great respect for Sufism. Have you seen the song Khwaja from the film Jodha Akbar?
[edit on 29-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]
I don't believe we are getting off topic. You have fear of the real Superpower once again. My esoteric views have the foundation of the exoteric to provide outstanding validity.
While you don't even mention the Vimana "meanings ranging from temple or palace to mythological flying machines described in Sanskrit epics." The mythological flying vessels in "Sanskrit" poetry? I know where those hindu mythological vimana machines came from, do you?
The Noble Qur'an Sura 38:The Letter Saad Verse:36
Then We subjected the wind to his power, to flow gently to his order, Whithersoever he willed,-
Originally posted by Indigo_Child
but because I have read 10 different translations of the Quran myself and his interpretations of finding scientific facts within it far by my estimation are very far-fetched and contrast with other claims made in that text which are unscientific(The Earth is flat like a bed held down by pegs for instance) I dismiss similar claims made by Hindus looking for scientific facts in the Vedas.
You have read 10 different interpretations of the meaning of the Noble Qur'an Indigo? But there's only 1 Qur'an. So by reading? 10 different different interpretations of the meaning of the Noble Qur'an, May sound like a feat in itself, One could learn to read the one! by the "6th" interpretation at least, in comparison! Arabic is a very rich language 1 word can have up-to 100 synonyms. Arabic and hebrew is also the language of the fire. Talk about hearing the whispers from the lote tree..
Originally posted by Indigo_Child
They will take, "the human fetus is made out of bones clothed with flesh" and read embryology into it, and "in the beginning was smoke" and read Big bang thoery into it. They are dubous attempts and obviously not taken seriously by educated people.
Islam has logic & reasoning two wonderful gifts, Bestowed at the beginning. It has the Miracle of "19" as well. The first Sura to be revealed (Sura 96: The Clot) is the 19th from the end.
The Noble Qur'an Sura 21: The Prophets Verse:30
ARE, THEN, they who are bent on denying the truth not aware that the heavens and the earth were [once] one single entity, which We then parted asunder? – and [that] We made out of water every living thing? Will they not, then, [begin to] believe?
Humans are made of around 75-80% water! While "hydrogen" is the lightest and most abundant chemical element, constituting roughly 75 % of the Universe's elemental mass. just add 2o & you have water everywhere! for H2O! just as The Noble Qur'an Sura 21: The Prophets Verse:30 says.
As you can see Indigo the "logic in islamic philosophy" can be incredibly deep. Also there is "Islamic metaphysics" & "sufi metaphysics." Why are you missing this? I understand Islam can be a bit advanced for those who can't accept its sattva?
reply to post by Project2501
Dude whatever your gonna say it does'nt match up to the philosophy, metaphysics as well as spiritualism taught by the Upanishads as well as the Gita. We all know very well that no Abrahamic religion preaches stuff such as meditation as well as evolution. Even if there are a few verses here and there that could be interpreted as such (which I am not sure exists) the Indians were the first to arrive at it. The upanishads clearly says meditate and contemplate on the teachings, discriminate at every level of teaching (to differentiate the rite from the wrong), vouchsafe the knowledge of the holy scriptures and apply it in your day to day activities. These are the basic core. Without these things you cannot evolve. Most of Islam is to fear Allah at all times and blindly obey the doctrine without question else pay the penalty. Ours is unique, it says to question any and everything in life and to search, ponder upon and arrive at the truth, thats why it says to discriminate at every level of teaching (To arrive at the truth). To fear god is to be taught only to refrain from doing unrighteous deeds, not all times. Hinduism teaches that we are a part of him and the separation is only illusional (i.e) the soul/self is the real you not the physical 3d body. And the soul/self is a part of him (or) belongs to him and meditating/contemplating on the soul/self by considering it as part of God we do the rite thing. That is why we believe in re incarnation (i.e) the soul being a part of him it is eternal and has no end but to re unite with him at the final stage which is called Samadhi (i.e) achieving perfection (both materialistic and spiritual/eternal) and finally obtaining immortality/eternal life.
I should tell you I find a lot teachings in the new testament to be similar to the Gita as well as the upanishads. I dont regard christianity as an Abrahamic religion just because the teachings dont match and it is verily the teachings that are important.
For instance
"The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ"
"The kingdom of heaven is within you"
"I have come to look for the lost sheep and put them in the right path"
No match. Period.
Many hindus are not aware of many of this as very few have the time/energy to read / comprehend all of this.
The important thing in Islam which most of the muslims agree upon is the DEEN, which many feel that the deen is superior to all other religions. (I consider the deen meaning LAW, correct me if I am wrong). They got the Law and a set of rules to go about the law in certain circumstances such as, "dont lie" but its ok to lie for the sake of Allah. "Dont steel" but its ok to steel for the sake of Allah (i.e) All wealth belongs to Allah and his messenger. "Dont Kill" but its ok to kill in the way of Allah. "Dont instigate violence" but its ok to instigate violence (at certain times) in the way of allah. So on and so forth.
Life style - Hinduism does not agree and prefer to have multiple wives atleast at the same time. I dont think Islam will be happy with that. Hinduism believes in sharing the love between 1 man and 1 woman or in the least to be married to 1 women at a time, sounds more noble to me. Hence lesser marital problems. If you use common sense you'd know that inorder to have multiple wives you need to have the wealth, physical strength (to satisfy all of them) as well as the talent to keep them all happy else will result in unhappy marriage. No pun intended by the way.
In Islam the veil is considered as holy, hindus consider the veil in terms of "veil of ignorance" i.e hindering evolution of soul/self. Knowledge is bliss. If you ask me I would call the doctrine of the upanishads as well as the Gita as the "Knowledge of the kingdom of heaven" and the new testament as a continuation of those. Blindly following a doctrine without re search/ analysis/DISCRIMINATION would end up in your consciousness being dumb ed down. Without these basic knowledge you can arrive at nothing.
I dont pretty much agree with Indigo though. He has mixed philosophy/metaphysics/spiritualism with that of science/technology also with civilization/construction/architecture and puked out everything togeather in an absolute stupidity of a thread. This leads to confusion.
If your gonna argue about Islamic countries being forward and base it on the Quran, no comparison. They are better off now because of OIL. I am not saying the quran has less to offer, it has a lot of good things but most muslims take it literally. ALL religious texts have basic teachings mixed with metaphorical stuff, everything and anything is not literal.
Most of what you've quoted regarding the Quran are far fetched/just not there. Here's something for you thats mentioned in the quran - "Do not include any innovator in religions".
Dude whatever your gonna say it does'nt match up to the philosophy, metaphysics as well as spiritualism taught by the Upanishads as well as the Gita. We all know very well that no Abrahamic religion preaches stuff such as meditation as well as evolution. Even if there are a few verses here and there that could be interpreted as such (which I am not sure exists) the Indians were the first to arrive at it. The upanishads clearly says meditate and contemplate on the teachings, discriminate at every level of teaching (to differentiate the rite from the wrong), vouchsafe the knowledge of the holy scriptures and apply it in your day to day activities. These are the basic core. Without these things you cannot evolve. Most of Islam is to fear Allah at all times and blindly obey the doctrine without question else pay the penalty. Ours is unique, it says to question any and everything in life and to search, ponder upon and arrive at the truth, thats why it says to discriminate at every level of teaching (To arrive at the truth). To fear god is to be taught only to refrain from doing unrighteous deeds, not all times. Hinduism teaches that we are a part of him and the separation is only illusional (i.e) the soul/self is the real you not the physical 3d body. And the soul/self is a part of him (or) belongs to him and meditating/contemplating on the soul/self by considering it as part of God we do the rite thing. That is why we believe in re incarnation (i.e) the soul being a part of him it is eternal and has no end but to re unite with him at the final stage which is called Samadhi (i.e) achieving perfection (both materialistic and spiritual/eternal) and finally obtaining immortality/eternal life.
I should tell you I find a lot teachings in the new testament to be similar to the Gita as well as the upanishads. I dont regard christianity as an Abrahamic religion just because the teachings dont match and it is verily the teachings that are important.
For instance
"The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ"
"The kingdom of heaven is within you"
"I have come to look for the lost sheep and put them in the right path"
No match. Period.
Many hindus are not aware of many of this as very few have the time/energy to read / comprehend all of this.
The important thing in Islam which most of the muslims agree upon is the DEEN, which many feel that the deen is superior to all other religions. (I consider the deen meaning LAW, correct me if I am wrong). They got the Law and a set of rules to go about the law in certain circumstances such as, "dont lie" but its ok to lie for the sake of Allah. "Dont steel" but its ok to steel for the sake of Allah (i.e) All wealth belongs to Allah and his messenger. "Dont Kill" but its ok to kill in the way of Allah. "Dont instigate violence" but its ok to instigate violence (at certain times) in the way of allah. So on and so forth.
Life style - Hinduism does not agree and prefer to have multiple wives atleast at the same time. I dont think Islam will be happy with that. Hinduism believes in sharing the love between 1 man and 1 woman or in the least to be married to 1 women at a time, sounds more noble to me. Hence lesser marital problems. If you use common sense you'd know that inorder to have multiple wives you need to have the wealth, physical strength (to satisfy all of them) as well as the talent to keep them all happy else will result in unhappy marriage. No pun intended by the way.
In Islam the veil is considered as holy, hindus consider the veil in terms of "veil of ignorance" i.e hindering evolution of soul/self. Knowledge is bliss. If you ask me I would call the doctrine of the upanishads as well as the Gita as the "Knowledge of the kingdom of heaven" and the new testament as a continuation of those. Blindly following a doctrine without re search/ analysis/DISCRIMINATION would end up in your consciousness being dumb ed down. Without these basic knowledge you can arrive at nothing.
I dont pretty much agree with Indigo though. He has mixed philosophy/metaphysics/spiritualism with that of science/technology also with civilization/construction/architecture and puked out everything togeather in an absolute stupidity of a thread. This leads to confusion.
If your gonna argue about Islamic countries being forward and base it on the Quran, no comparison. They are better off now because of OIL. I am not saying the quran has less to offer, it has a lot of good things but most muslims take it literally. ALL religious texts have basic teachings mixed with metaphorical stuff, everything and anything is not literal.
Most of what you've quoted regarding the Quran are far fetched/just not there. Here's something for you thats mentioned in the quran - "Do not include any innovator in religions".
Continued...
The Quran/Islam concentrates on that which is physical. The whole problem with that is that the physical is completely worthless without that which is eternal (i.e) the soul/self which is a part of God 'Brahman' which is nothing but the universal self or existance. Without the self/soul nothing functions.
The Quran/Islam says that we are liquid. The upanishads say that the self/soul is pure spirit/consciousness and in the physical state the self is called as 'Vaishvanara' or digestive fluid.
To go further into this one must accept that there is something called as consciousness which is not explained in any Abrahamic religions. Only by the way of consciousness can the self EXPERIENCE. Consciousness in the self is known as 'That which is aware', 'I am' or 'I exist' or 'I am aware of my SELF'. And inorder for you to reach Brahman one must Raise/Elevate ones consciosness s as to finally reach the consciousness of Brahman/God.
Why do you think Jesus called God as his father??? It was not to signify that Jesus was his physical begotten son but to signify that his consciousness was only next to God (i.e) he was/is the most HIGH next to God. Once again metaphorical. And muslims disregard him because of taking to the physical (i.e) taking things too literally.
You say that the deen of Islam is superior, I tell you that the law of the eternal (i.e) LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT (or) LAW OF ACTION TO REACTION is far superior to the deen of Islam which has more to do with the physical (i.e) way of life rather than the eternal. Something that Jesus has also said "As you sow so shall ye reap", "That which goes around comes around". The eternal was/is/will be the most important. Jesus says "Before Abraham was born I am", in the sense "I exist", "I am aware as to I exist", "I am conscious of my SELF".
If you ask me the Upanishads, The Gita and The New Testament are by far the most enlightening of all doctrines. The Quran does not match up.
The Quran/Islam concentrates on that which is physical. The whole problem with that is that the physical is completely worthless without that which is eternal (i.e) the soul/self which is a part of God 'Brahman' which is nothing but the universal self or existance. Without the self/soul nothing functions.
The Quran/Islam says that we are liquid. The upanishads say that the self/soul is pure spirit/consciousness and in the physical state the self is called as 'Vaishvanara' or digestive fluid.
To go further into this one must accept that there is something called as consciousness which is not explained in any Abrahamic religions. Only by the way of consciousness can the self EXPERIENCE. Consciousness in the self is known as 'That which is aware', 'I am' or 'I exist' or 'I am aware of my SELF'. And inorder for you to reach Brahman one must Raise/Elevate ones consciosness s as to finally reach the consciousness of Brahman/God.
Why do you think Jesus called God as his father??? It was not to signify that Jesus was his physical begotten son but to signify that his consciousness was only next to God (i.e) he was/is the most HIGH next to God. Once again metaphorical. And muslims disregard him because of taking to the physical (i.e) taking things too literally.
You say that the deen of Islam is superior, I tell you that the law of the eternal (i.e) LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT (or) LAW OF ACTION TO REACTION is far superior to the deen of Islam which has more to do with the physical (i.e) way of life rather than the eternal. Something that Jesus has also said "As you sow so shall ye reap", "That which goes around comes around". The eternal was/is/will be the most important. Jesus says "Before Abraham was born I am", in the sense "I exist", "I am aware as to I exist", "I am conscious of my SELF".
If you ask me the Upanishads, The Gita and The New Testament are by far the most enlightening of all doctrines. The Quran does not match up.
reply to post by CuteAngel
Islamic Metaphysics are the True "Illuminationist Philosophy"
An ignorant muslim is more dangerous than a non-believer. One of the main veils that keeps people from seeing God is Religious Fanaticism. Try to be orthodox but don't turn into a "zealot" so that Religion just becomes a way that your better than everyone else, Therefore veiling you from God. So be careful as personality can be a mask we hide behind.
Christ is a word meaning anointed one, As Isa/jesus came during the greek revolution of healing arts & out did them. As example Musa/moses was bestowed with Ayah/miracles to show Pharaoh's mystery school of magicians who was in charge, God. Every time history has a need, God has a effect for the cause of man. And where does the kingdom of God end? & as far as the sheep go doesn't Psalm 23:4 provide us with insight. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." - Psalm 23:4 Meaning the Shepherd also has the ability to lay down his crook and flail, & arms crossed as a X carry the sheep upon his back?
The most important part of Islam CuteAngel is "Piety" that meaning to be "Pious."
Perhaps you should reread your 6 lifetimes worth of hinduism you appear to have made a tragic mistake. Draupadi was into Polyandry. In the ancient Hindu epic, Mahabharata. Draupadi marries the five Pandava brothers. Krishna had 16,108 wives, I have to stop a moment & say wow just wow! And since you admire the Christian bible. Here is 1 Kings 11:1-3 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites: Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. Yep 700 wives.
The Noble Qur'an Sura 4: The Women Verse:129
And it will not be within your power to treat your wives with equal fairness, however much you may desire it; and so, do not allow yourselves to incline towards one to the exclusion of the other, leaving her in a state, as it were, of having and not having a husband. But if you put things to rights and are conscious of Him - behold, God is indeed much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.
So yes up-to four wives. Because some of us can afford more than one. Because there is not enough men to pick up the slack! Someone must tend to the flower garden. And fill it with butterflies!
Islamic Metaphysics are the True "Illuminationist Philosophy"
An ignorant muslim is more dangerous than a non-believer. One of the main veils that keeps people from seeing God is Religious Fanaticism. Try to be orthodox but don't turn into a "zealot" so that Religion just becomes a way that your better than everyone else, Therefore veiling you from God. So be careful as personality can be a mask we hide behind.
Originally posted by CuteAngel
"The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ"
"The kingdom of heaven is within you"
"I have come to look for the lost sheep and put them in the right path"
No match. Period.
Christ is a word meaning anointed one, As Isa/jesus came during the greek revolution of healing arts & out did them. As example Musa/moses was bestowed with Ayah/miracles to show Pharaoh's mystery school of magicians who was in charge, God. Every time history has a need, God has a effect for the cause of man. And where does the kingdom of God end? & as far as the sheep go doesn't Psalm 23:4 provide us with insight. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." - Psalm 23:4 Meaning the Shepherd also has the ability to lay down his crook and flail, & arms crossed as a X carry the sheep upon his back?
The most important part of Islam CuteAngel is "Piety" that meaning to be "Pious."
Perhaps you should reread your 6 lifetimes worth of hinduism you appear to have made a tragic mistake. Draupadi was into Polyandry. In the ancient Hindu epic, Mahabharata. Draupadi marries the five Pandava brothers. Krishna had 16,108 wives, I have to stop a moment & say wow just wow! And since you admire the Christian bible. Here is 1 Kings 11:1-3 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites: Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. Yep 700 wives.
The Noble Qur'an Sura 4: The Women Verse:129
And it will not be within your power to treat your wives with equal fairness, however much you may desire it; and so, do not allow yourselves to incline towards one to the exclusion of the other, leaving her in a state, as it were, of having and not having a husband. But if you put things to rights and are conscious of Him - behold, God is indeed much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.
So yes up-to four wives. Because some of us can afford more than one. Because there is not enough men to pick up the slack! Someone must tend to the flower garden. And fill it with butterflies!
reply to post by CuteAngel
The Qur'an concentrates on the exoteric foundation first to provide stability. After one has the exoteric foundation, They may build the esoteric foundation upon the exoteric foundation without worry that it may crumble. Reality is God, And we exist in the physical, Also our five senses allows us to connect to the physical reality. The esoteric is for those who have the throne of God with in them, That in which is there heart. Those who are ables to master their emotions. To have a heart/temple of purity so he will even sit with in you?
Adam created from no male or female. while Eve was created from one male no female. Isa/Jesus created from 1 female and no male. While we are created from one male & one female. Also each Male & Female has a soul, Which manifest through our consciousness.
Are you sure about that?
Also Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 3:16 is one of the most misquoted verses of the christians because of the word begotten which is a wrongfully translated word.
Also to note Jesus's word of "begotten" is really "unique" & that word translates as Monogenēs part of the body from latin manoganiso with what you are referring to in as "Only Begotten Son," reference of thought. You are translating a text without a proper understanding and arriving at a wrong destination. You can't just pick up a religious text and attempt to mold it to you're own allegory & rhetoric. And as far as Jesus being the most high why do you place the quality of "Apotheosis" on Jesus for?
I'm glad you enjoy the Upanishads, The Gita and The New Testament, Even if you're mistranslating the New Testament... By misquoting it's translations badly. And the Qur'an is a fountain of knowledge, That is the true wisdom here. I can understand why "Islam is in India shining the true light."
[edit on 31-12-2009 by Project2501]
Originally posted by CuteAngel
The Quran/Islam concentrates on that which is physical. The whole problem with that is that the physical is completely worthless without that which is eternal (i.e) the soul/self which is a part of God 'Brahman' which is nothing but the universal self or existance. Without the self/soul nothing functions.
The Qur'an concentrates on the exoteric foundation first to provide stability. After one has the exoteric foundation, They may build the esoteric foundation upon the exoteric foundation without worry that it may crumble. Reality is God, And we exist in the physical, Also our five senses allows us to connect to the physical reality. The esoteric is for those who have the throne of God with in them, That in which is there heart. Those who are ables to master their emotions. To have a heart/temple of purity so he will even sit with in you?
Originally posted by CuteAngel
The Quran/Islam says that we are liquid. The upanishads say that the self/soul is pure spirit/consciousness and in the physical state the self is called as 'Vaishvanara' or digestive fluid.
Adam created from no male or female. while Eve was created from one male no female. Isa/Jesus created from 1 female and no male. While we are created from one male & one female. Also each Male & Female has a soul, Which manifest through our consciousness.
Originally posted by CuteAngel
To go further into this one must accept that there is something called as consciousness which is not explained in any Abrahamic religions. Only by the way of consciousness can the self EXPERIENCE. Consciousness in the self is known as 'That which is aware', 'I am' or 'I exist' or 'I am aware of my SELF'. And inorder for you to reach Brahman one must Raise/Elevate ones consciosness s as to finally reach the consciousness of Brahman/God.
Are you sure about that?
Also Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Originally posted by CuteAngel
Why do you think Jesus called God as his father??? It was not to signify that Jesus was his physical begotten son but to signify that his consciousness was only next to God (i.e) he was/is the most HIGH next to God.
John 3:16 is one of the most misquoted verses of the christians because of the word begotten which is a wrongfully translated word.
Also to note Jesus's word of "begotten" is really "unique" & that word translates as Monogenēs part of the body from latin manoganiso with what you are referring to in as "Only Begotten Son," reference of thought. You are translating a text without a proper understanding and arriving at a wrong destination. You can't just pick up a religious text and attempt to mold it to you're own allegory & rhetoric. And as far as Jesus being the most high why do you place the quality of "Apotheosis" on Jesus for?
Originally posted by CuteAngel
If you ask me the Upanishads, The Gita and The New Testament are by far the most enlightening of all doctrines. The Quran does not match up.
I'm glad you enjoy the Upanishads, The Gita and The New Testament, Even if you're mistranslating the New Testament... By misquoting it's translations badly. And the Qur'an is a fountain of knowledge, That is the true wisdom here. I can understand why "Islam is in India shining the true light."
[edit on 31-12-2009 by Project2501]
reply to post by Project2501
As I said before, Islam has a lot of good things to offer. The main point is the philosophy/metaphysics/spiritual wisdom (i.e) basic core (or) the clarified butter which has its origin in the upanishads as well as the gita is far older than Islam. You are talking about that which originated in 600 AD with that which originated as far back as 3500 BC or 7000 BC or 10000 BC or some may say even older owing to the fact that people are unable to date it. Hence I say the Indian philosophy is superior and older. Even though it is older it still depicts nobility, logic, reasoning and common sense.
You once again talk about the history of the new testament (i.e) the physical and fail to realise the teachings. The psalm about him carrying the cross on his back is something metaphorical and has a bigger picture to it. That is to signify that in order to reach perfection one has to relinquish all the materialistic things of this world, realise ones SELF and carry the burden that one has reaped in all existances, take to seclusion and meditate/contemplate on the SELF by considering the SELF to be part of Brahman.
Tsk Tsk... A man spent his entire life talking about the truth, giving the message of God, healing/curing the sick, feeding the poor, teaching/giving wisdom for free to the masses, brings Lazarus as well as others back to life and sacrificed his life so as to remove the sins accrued by others during their different states of existence and this is how you speak of him. If you want to know about what piety or being pious is this is the best example.
Finally when God sent Mary Magdalene to comfort him, he asks God to not test him (i.e) to say his entire life was meant to contemplate on the truth and nothing else.
Of course a good thing but still inferior as in Islam fails to connect (or) has very less connection to the eternal. You see I consider Islam as a way of life and very less to do with things such as "Knowledge about the kingdom of heaven" or our connection to the eternal. Some verses for you
Ecclesiastes -
He who goes to the temple to gain knowledge is far superior to the one who goes to the temple to offer sacrifices.
The Gita -
He who sacrifices by the way of knowledge is far superior to the one who sacrifices by the way of action.
This knowledge (i.e knowledge about the kingdom of heaven) is most royal and most sacred and is the true knowledge that should be sought after which is the divine knowledge.
The garden in Islam can be compared to the field and the know er of the field in the Gita.
By the way this 3d physical world being an illusion itself I consider the religion as a system to contain humanity (i.e) an illusion upon an illusion. Sad...
C'mon project. There are many great people whose personal lives were flawed/ not an example due to many reasons. The only reason that can be given of them is the "Law of consequences of action" or in other words FATE (i.e) it was meant to happen that way and I am sure there are many such examples in other religions as well. The hindus do not have a habit of following the life styles of people in their epics. And you fail to mention the preceding as well succeeding verses of that epic where it says that kunti told them to share the prize they would win when they told her that they were going to a contest and they did not know what the prize of that contest was. Arjuna being the third brother and the person to win that contest could not marry Draupadi when the eldest one was unmarried. I am not going to go into further details just note that it was "DHARMA for that situation" and verily dharma should be followed at all times without fail. Krishna took the brides of the kings/princes who had met him in battle and lost.
As far as the old testament goes, jews have alligned themselves with the christians only now for the sake of politics. If you look in terms of religion christianity is not a continuation of the jews but a separate religion by itself. There were many prophets that came between Moses and Jesus but none were able to create a separate religion, so why do you think that christianity became a separate religion by itself, its because the teachings are verily different.
Islamic Metaphysics are the True "Illuminationist Philosophy" An ignorant muslim is more dangerous than a non-believer. One of the main veils that keeps people from seeing God is Religious Fanaticism. Try to be orthodox but don't turn into a "zealot" so that Religion just becomes a way that your better than everyone else, Therefore veiling you from God. So be careful as personality can be a mask we hide behind.
As I said before, Islam has a lot of good things to offer. The main point is the philosophy/metaphysics/spiritual wisdom (i.e) basic core (or) the clarified butter which has its origin in the upanishads as well as the gita is far older than Islam. You are talking about that which originated in 600 AD with that which originated as far back as 3500 BC or 7000 BC or 10000 BC or some may say even older owing to the fact that people are unable to date it. Hence I say the Indian philosophy is superior and older. Even though it is older it still depicts nobility, logic, reasoning and common sense.
Christ is a word meaning anointed one, As Isa/jesus came during the greek revolution of healing arts & out did them. As example Musa/moses was bestowed with Ayah/miracles to show Pharaoh's mystery school of magicians who was in charge, God. Every time history has a need, God has a effect for the cause of man. And where does the kingdom of God end? & as far as the sheep go doesn't Psalm 23:4 provide us with insight. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." - Psalm 23:4 Meaning the Shepherd also has the ability to lay down his crook and flail, & arms crossed as a X carry the sheep upon his back?
You once again talk about the history of the new testament (i.e) the physical and fail to realise the teachings. The psalm about him carrying the cross on his back is something metaphorical and has a bigger picture to it. That is to signify that in order to reach perfection one has to relinquish all the materialistic things of this world, realise ones SELF and carry the burden that one has reaped in all existances, take to seclusion and meditate/contemplate on the SELF by considering the SELF to be part of Brahman.
Tsk Tsk... A man spent his entire life talking about the truth, giving the message of God, healing/curing the sick, feeding the poor, teaching/giving wisdom for free to the masses, brings Lazarus as well as others back to life and sacrificed his life so as to remove the sins accrued by others during their different states of existence and this is how you speak of him. If you want to know about what piety or being pious is this is the best example.
Finally when God sent Mary Magdalene to comfort him, he asks God to not test him (i.e) to say his entire life was meant to contemplate on the truth and nothing else.
The most important part of Islam CuteAngel is "Piety" that meaning to be "Pious."
Of course a good thing but still inferior as in Islam fails to connect (or) has very less connection to the eternal. You see I consider Islam as a way of life and very less to do with things such as "Knowledge about the kingdom of heaven" or our connection to the eternal. Some verses for you
Ecclesiastes -
He who goes to the temple to gain knowledge is far superior to the one who goes to the temple to offer sacrifices.
The Gita -
He who sacrifices by the way of knowledge is far superior to the one who sacrifices by the way of action.
This knowledge (i.e knowledge about the kingdom of heaven) is most royal and most sacred and is the true knowledge that should be sought after which is the divine knowledge.
The garden in Islam can be compared to the field and the know er of the field in the Gita.
By the way this 3d physical world being an illusion itself I consider the religion as a system to contain humanity (i.e) an illusion upon an illusion. Sad...
Perhaps you should reread your 6 lifetimes worth of hinduism you appear to have made a tragic mistake. Draupadi was into Polyandry. In the ancient Hindu epic, Mahabharata. Draupadi marries the five Pandava brothers. Krishna had 16,108 wives, I have to stop a moment & say wow just wow! And since you admire the Christian bible. Here is 1 Kings 11:1-3 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites: Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. Yep 700 wives.
C'mon project. There are many great people whose personal lives were flawed/ not an example due to many reasons. The only reason that can be given of them is the "Law of consequences of action" or in other words FATE (i.e) it was meant to happen that way and I am sure there are many such examples in other religions as well. The hindus do not have a habit of following the life styles of people in their epics. And you fail to mention the preceding as well succeeding verses of that epic where it says that kunti told them to share the prize they would win when they told her that they were going to a contest and they did not know what the prize of that contest was. Arjuna being the third brother and the person to win that contest could not marry Draupadi when the eldest one was unmarried. I am not going to go into further details just note that it was "DHARMA for that situation" and verily dharma should be followed at all times without fail. Krishna took the brides of the kings/princes who had met him in battle and lost.
As far as the old testament goes, jews have alligned themselves with the christians only now for the sake of politics. If you look in terms of religion christianity is not a continuation of the jews but a separate religion by itself. There were many prophets that came between Moses and Jesus but none were able to create a separate religion, so why do you think that christianity became a separate religion by itself, its because the teachings are verily different.
reply to post by CuteAngel
Continued...
Infact it is Islam that is the continuation of Jews. You dont seem to notice that christianity has no doctrine for burnt offerings or fellowship offerings or morning and evening sacrifices. The jews do as well as Islam has the full moon and new moon sacrifices. By the way can you explain to me the logic or reason or purpose behind the sacrifices (I dont have a problem with it though)???
Cool. These are some of the things that makes me sad that I am not born Muslim!
Continued...
Infact it is Islam that is the continuation of Jews. You dont seem to notice that christianity has no doctrine for burnt offerings or fellowship offerings or morning and evening sacrifices. The jews do as well as Islam has the full moon and new moon sacrifices. By the way can you explain to me the logic or reason or purpose behind the sacrifices (I dont have a problem with it though)???
The Noble Qur'an Sura 4: The Women Verse:129 And it will not be within your power to treat your wives with equal fairness, however much you may desire it; and so, do not allow yourselves to incline towards one to the exclusion of the other, leaving her in a state, as it were, of having and not having a husband. But if you put things to rights and are conscious of Him - behold, God is indeed much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace. So yes up-to four wives. Because some of us can afford more than one. Because there is not enough men to pick up the slack! Someone must tend to the flower garden. And fill it with butterflies!
Cool. These are some of the things that makes me sad that I am not born Muslim!
I dont pretty much agree with Indigo though. He has mixed philosophy/metaphysics/spiritualism with that of science/technology also with civilization/construction/architecture and puked out everything togeather in an absolute stupidity of a thread. This leads to confusion.
Haha, what! ? This is the Ancient and lost civilsiations form. This thread is about the Ancient Indian civilisation and science-technology, economics and engineering! The metaphysics, religion and spirituality discussion brought about by this Isam vs Hinduism initiated by Project is off-topic! I did not start that. I think its a good discussion though. But come on be fair, I am not mixing it up at all.
As for Islam. I agree with what you are telling Project, there is barely any spirituality, philosophy or metaphysics in Islam. In fact one of the Islamic scholars(Al-Kindi?) that tried to use logic to argue about Allah was considered a heretic. The Islamic god is absolutely transcendental, beyond logic and reason. Logic cannot be used to understand him. Allah can do what he wants - even create something out of nothing. He can be merciful and he can be cruel. He can punish anybody and everybody if they haven't done anything wrong.
This is why I said earlier I would never worship the Islamic god for my soul and reason does not consider him worthy of my worship.
reply to post by Indigo_Child
I guess you are more interested in science and hence take to the few scientific info/discoveries/logic and reason mentioned in the Indian scripts. But the truth is man is no where near the level to comprehend God scientifically. The infinite cannot be comprehended by the finite and that is just what we humans are, finite!
The God of the Gita as well as Upanishads is also mentioned as transcendental, beyond all and one without a second. I dont think you have absorbed the spiritual wisdom of the scriptures very well owing to the fact you are more interested in science as in "science known to man". But as I said we humans have a long way to go before we can even come close to comprehending the truth of God.
The God of the upanishads 'BRAHMAN' literally means 'In AWE of him' but of course that word is also used to describe God as Primordial one/Unmanifested one/Void/Transcendental one/one who is fit to be worshiped so on and so forth.
As for your quotes about God can do anything he wants is infact true. This is even the case with the God of the Upanishads. Why bad things happen to good people you ask??? there are many reasons that can be given for that such as 'so as to test you', 'law of consequences of action due to karma accrued from previous births', 'fate' so on and so forth.
My main point was to show the hypocrisy that is there in the muslim world, the narrow mindedness and the suppression of people of different faiths and the know it all/superior attitude even though other religions far far older than them have expounded certain miraculous truths. I am also against their rituals as well as compulsion as in submission and the blind faith without any re search/analysis of the quran as well as other manuscripts.
Science/Logic/Reason can be used to explain him but only to a certain degree. The whole truth is only known during death/Samadhi. That is why it is known that during death the greatest bliss/glory/peace/happiness is obtained.
The Gita, Upanishads are the basic core without which one cannot and will not be able to interpret the truth which also includes scriptures of other religions.
This is why I said earlier I would never worship the Islamic god for my soul and reason does not consider him worthy of my worship.
I guess you are more interested in science and hence take to the few scientific info/discoveries/logic and reason mentioned in the Indian scripts. But the truth is man is no where near the level to comprehend God scientifically. The infinite cannot be comprehended by the finite and that is just what we humans are, finite!
The Islamic god is absolutely transcendental, beyond logic and reason. Logic cannot be used to understand him. Allah can do what he wants - even create something out of nothing. He can be merciful and he can be cruel. He can punish anybody and everybody if they haven't done anything wrong.
The God of the Gita as well as Upanishads is also mentioned as transcendental, beyond all and one without a second. I dont think you have absorbed the spiritual wisdom of the scriptures very well owing to the fact you are more interested in science as in "science known to man". But as I said we humans have a long way to go before we can even come close to comprehending the truth of God.
The God of the upanishads 'BRAHMAN' literally means 'In AWE of him' but of course that word is also used to describe God as Primordial one/Unmanifested one/Void/Transcendental one/one who is fit to be worshiped so on and so forth.
As for your quotes about God can do anything he wants is infact true. This is even the case with the God of the Upanishads. Why bad things happen to good people you ask??? there are many reasons that can be given for that such as 'so as to test you', 'law of consequences of action due to karma accrued from previous births', 'fate' so on and so forth.
My main point was to show the hypocrisy that is there in the muslim world, the narrow mindedness and the suppression of people of different faiths and the know it all/superior attitude even though other religions far far older than them have expounded certain miraculous truths. I am also against their rituals as well as compulsion as in submission and the blind faith without any re search/analysis of the quran as well as other manuscripts.
Science/Logic/Reason can be used to explain him but only to a certain degree. The whole truth is only known during death/Samadhi. That is why it is known that during death the greatest bliss/glory/peace/happiness is obtained.
The Gita, Upanishads are the basic core without which one cannot and will not be able to interpret the truth which also includes scriptures of other religions.
The God of the Gita as well as Upanishads is also mentioned as transcendental, beyond all and one without a second. I dont think you have absorbed the spiritual wisdom of the scriptures very well owing to the fact you are more interested in science as in "science known to man". But as I said we humans have a long way to go before we can even come close to comprehending the truth of God.
I am interested in both. Spirituality, metaphysics and gnosis is para-vidya(Atma vidya/Brahma vidya) and science and technology is apara-vidya. Both have their place in this world. I am not mixing them up, when I am doing spirituality I look at para-vidya; when I am doing science and technology I look at apara vidya.
As for your quotes about God can do anything he wants is infact true. This is even the case with the God of the Upanishads. Why bad things happen to good people you ask??? there are many reasons that can be given for that such as 'so as to test you', 'law of consequences of action due to karma accrued from previous births', 'fate' so on and so forth.
Not in the same case as Islam. The Hindu concept of god is both transcendent and imminent. The Hindu concept of god is also rational.
In the Vedas the Hindu god is also called vak this is the same as the logos in Christianity. This means the Hindu god is logical. He cannot do something which is against logic. Also, because the Hindu god is logical, it means the Hindu god is knowable by reason.
In the Gita Krishna says that there is nothing in the entire universe that he can't have, but still he works to maintain cosmic law. Every now and again when the balance of dharma is upset he incarnates himself to restore the balance. In others words Krishna and cosmic law are both interrelated. Even Krishna cannot go against cosmic law. He has to work in accordance with it.
Notice in the stories of the incarnations of Vishnu always uses logic to defeat an enemy. In his incarnation of the half-man and half lion, an evil demon king has the boon of immortality. He cannot be killed neither man or animal, nor in the night or in the day. So Vishnu incarnates as half-man and half-lion and kills him during an eclipse. Again this is demonstrating that the Hindu god is rational.
Allah is not a rational god. Allah is beyond rationality. Allah can do the impossible. He does not need to incarnate to punish his enemies, he can just smite his enemies from heaven. Allah follows no laws, he can make the sun rise in the West, he can make fire cold. He can do anything he wants and this is why you should fear him and beg his forgiveness.
[edit on 1-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]
Originally posted by CuteAngel
As I said before, Islam has a lot of good things to offer. The main point is the philosophy/metaphysics/spiritual wisdom (i.e) basic core (or) the clarified butter which has its origin in the upanishads as well as the gita is far older than Islam. You are talking about that which originated in 600 AD with that which originated as far back as 3500 BC or 7000 BC or 10000 BC or some may say even older owing to the fact that people are unable to date it. Hence I say the Indian philosophy is superior and older. Even though it is older it still depicts nobility, logic, reasoning and common sense.
1,000 years is only 1 day to God
The Noble Qur'an Sura 32: The Prostration Verse:5
He governs all that exists, from the celestial space to the earth; and in the end all shall ascend unto Him [for judgment] on a Day the length whereof will be [like] a thousand years of your reckoning.
Yes, So your lack of measurements of time means what exactly?
The Noble Qur'an Sura 13: The Thunder Verse:38
And, truly, We sent forth apostles before thee, and We appointed for them wives and offspring; and it was not given to any apostle to produce a miracle save at God's behest. Every age has had its revelation:
How is or even was Mary Magdalene a test, For a Prophet such as Isa/Jesus that clearly has a right to marry if he had so chosen to do so? Who are you to meddle in his affairs?
Why is the christian bible shrouded in mystery and missing Jesus around the ages of 13 through 30? What do you mean his whole life? There is no documentation from your standpoint to back that claim? The text in which you are quoting is a tad corrupted with what you are stating. Your projected theory of the avatar you'd like to mask Jesus in will take more than persuasive rhetoric. - Note The Christian name was first established in Acts 11:26 And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
The Sacrifice reminds us that life is sacred. By saying the name of God at the time of slaughter. Also it teaches us how to eat "Halal."
Islam is the straight path to spirituality. It has the tariqah and that is a hikmah indeed. The color of wisdom that being green, shines upon the entire earth. A truth of the supreme. And as far as "Dunya" goes, Well yes the temporal world can be most tempting.
And also, Muslims have a great method of meditation it's called "muraqaba" from gnosis to say shahood a person could activate a deep sense with in and all around. Once again it appears the Islamic system is far to advanced for you. But you would have to have knowledge of "Islamic philosophy" & "Islamic metaphysics"
I still await to be shown this Sanatana, (born from the mind) which is in fact hermetic in nature. It's not like you're going to stumble upon a Samkhya guru any or everyday right? - Note Samkhya is one of the oldest philosophical systems in India, Taught by the four sons of Brahma, The Four Kumaras. But you never seem to find any hindus teaching this? As well as the hindu stories of the vimana. Once again telling a story of a supposed ancient superpower is one thing. But providing the real framework for it, Is simply not manifesting in truth. If you're going to deny via ignorance, Because you're afraid your system has lost any luster it may have once had? We can see india was a ancient story teller, That much has been ascertained.
Originally posted by Indigo_Child
He can be merciful and he can be cruel. He can punish anybody and everybody if they haven't done anything wrong.
God is The Giver of Honour & the Taker of Honour. God is not cruel, You mistake severity with cruelty because you can't distinguish the two?
Allah/God can do the impossible because people can't think as Allah. People are limited to human thought patterns. You are thinking with protein stamps on neurons stored in synapses trees with in your brain. And you defrag those synapses clusters to different mood patterns. Yet you think you are apotheothis? Such logic is not available to you as long as you are reactive to the world around you instead of proactive to reality/God/Allah.
Can you create a entire universe & control every aspect of it? Can you create a Earth and all of the mineral world, vegetable world & animal world? Can you create water & sustain it all through out the universe? Can you create the ocean of thoughts that humanity creates their ponds & lakes of thoughts from? What about creating a star such as the sun can you even create such as that? How about a soul, Can you create a soul? We are all guilty of passing some type of sentence against life in a reactive manor time & again but yet not a one of us can create life what so ever. Because none of us own life, we are just renting to own. You appear to want to outdo the laws of nature itself and become God himself? So all things are possible... No such luck will you have on that nightmare. Because you can't even handle certain events now. Much less all known things in existence.
Take note Allah/God creates from no model while all of humanity creates from the models Allah/God provides. This is your false detection of the impossible because of the lack of human comprehension.
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