Creationist Conundrum: For Genesis to be true, God would have to be the Great Deceiver (Satan)!

Originally posted by kingoftheworld
According to the beliefs of Christians and the like, God is here in the hearts of us humans, but this is Satan's World until the end of days when Jesus takes back the Earth. So Satan does whatever he does to get people to stop believing in Him.

Satan isn't a personality. Satan is Adversary...that is all that SATAN means.

Anyone who is your adversary is SATAN as well as you are SATAN to them.

When you war with God, he is SATAN.

God makes all things, Bad, Good and Indifferent. God is All souls, together, this is the LIVING GOD...doing righteousness among his own body.

God is not A man, or woman, but all living beings that have the breath of life in them.

Eternal life is called a Cycle....LIFE CYCLE...this is eternal life....the blood is important to go forward, not the person, but the soul of the person in the blood...to a new generation.

Produce no new Generation better you were never born...as it is all vanity...NOTHINGNESS.

BE fruitful and Multiply....very very very first Command followed by the very first law....read as, "There fore a man must leave his mother and father and cling inside of the woman of him and the two shall become one flesh....A new baby.

Plainly said, not understood is the bible. Understand it plainly and it will be opened to you.

Here is God saying he is Both beings, really just one being, two if you stand against him, and one if you are with him.

The people who don't "know" him are the ones he dwells in. When you are one with the lord, you don't know it because you are it. When seperated...you will know it...then wish you never even looked.

Day n Night...the lonely loner seems to free his mind at night....

PEace



[edit on 24-12-2009 by letthereaderunderstand]

Originally posted by tribewilder

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
By Biblical standards, the Earth (and the whole Universe itself) are only 6,000 years old (give or take a century or two). Meanwhile, the physical evidence says quite a different story. It points to a Universe that is over 13 BILLION years old, and Earth that is over 4 BILLION years old, and that mankind is over 100,000 years old... Quite a difference!

Well what if those who wrote the Bible were really bad at math. Huh?

Maybe they forgot a digit or two, or were confused by all the zeros, or forgot to carry the one. Could have happened...

Actually, with the latest find in Africa, mankind (actually it was a female) may be 4 million years old. They left out a whole gob of begats.

I quit trying to debate them. My grandfather told me once. "Don't rassel with pigs. You both get all dirty and the pig likes it."

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
By Biblical standards, the Earth (and the whole Universe itself) are only 6,000 years old (give or take a century or two)

This is false. The Bible does NOT claim this. This is your whole argument. Therefore your whole argument is flawed.

This idea of 6000 literal years was brought up by people incorrectly interpreting what the bible actually does say. The bible does not mean that for every year mentioned it is a literal 365 day a year type of year.

oh-oh. Cognative dissonance is setting in. A leading fundagelical group says; "The Bible provides a complete genealogy from Adam to Jesus. You can go through the genealogies and add up the years. You'll get a total that is just over 4,000 years. Add the 2,000 years since the time of Jesus and you get just over 6,000 years since God created everything. (www.missiontoamerica.org...)
"oung earth creation scientists advance a number of reasons for the earth and universe being approximately 6,000 years"http://www.conservapedia.com/Young_earth_creationism#Biblical

Now it looks loke even the young earth creationists are beginning to bail on this theist BS.

Originally posted by ellieN
Maybe Adam and Eve were a new experiment for God since God did put them in what seems to have been a controlled environment, The Garden of Eden. It seems there were others already here.( Cain's wife in the land of Nod) I'm assuming God made those too.
Something went terribly wrong, when the snake convinced Eve to take the fruit of the tree of knowledge. I don't know if these two would have done this of their own free will sometime in the future or not. My guess is yes. Humans were given free will and definitely curious about everything. These two were as smart as humans are today in brain power. From that point on knowledge increased to the point where we are now. It will keep up that pace until time is up.
These two had all they needed to survive and live for however long God deemed sufficiently long enough. They did not have to do anything except obey God.
Animals in a Zoo have the same thing.
But it does seem that others were involved in the Garden of Eden experiment with God.....Genesis 3:22..God speaking to someone..
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as ONE OF US, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and LIVE FOREVER:
From that statement it appears that Adam and Eve were not immortal.

[edit on 24-12-2009 by ellieN] editing for grammer

[edit on 24-12-2009 by ellieN]

Adam is not, was not and will not be a single human. Adam in Hebrew means Mankind.

If you read Genesis which is about the building of the body not the universe.

Day one...first cell divides
Day two...membranes form...as example
The heart and Brain or Moon and Sun are on the fourth day.

The bible isn't about the building of the earth and never was. It is about Human beings and all of the host of them...finished completely by the end of Genesis 1:31....every other writing is a more detailed version of the same story...over and over and over again...only the names and places have been changed TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT....THOSE SCATTERED TO THE WIND. In other words those who don't reproduce offspring.

Reproduce or Reep no Produce....simple, easy, true.

DBA: God
est. year 1

And remember, a childs ways are not your ways folks....the kingdom BELONGS to such as these....Generation to Generation....Eternal

reply to post by TarzanBeta

I used to hope and pray there was no afterlife. Until I was reminded of the inherent contradiction.



[edit on 24-12-2009 by 4nsicphd]

Originally posted by Shane

Originally posted by Jim Scott
4. Genesis 2:6 Shows how man had not yet been formed.

8. In Gen 2, we see that the Lord God is at work, but in Gen 1 it is God. Lord God is different. In this part of the creation, Jesus is working with God to form man, the beasts, and growing a garden and growing a woman from a rib. The words here are "formed" for the man and the beasts, and "made" for the garden and the woman. The beasts are "formed" in front of Adam for him to name them, and so he can behold the creative power of the Lord God. Jesus is at work here partly because of His involvement later to redeem us from the fall of His creation.

(Also, just another common misconception. We are not made in the image of God. Adam was. Then Adam fell, or became fallen man, or a man who was made in a sinful flesh state. We are made in the image of Adam. See Gen 5:1. We die.)

I am not picking on you Jim, but curious how you noted the above.

Who are these peoples?

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all
the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the
earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God
created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful,
and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have
dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the
air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

They have NOTHING to do with Adam. They have no instructions specifcally like Adam. They are to do What?

I believe, you maybe missing some of the Peoples on this planet my friend. Many peoples, like those in the land of Nod, that Cain eventually inmingled with. Like the Aborigines of Austrialia, which predate Adam by some 7000 or more years.

Just wishing to clear this up.

As for Adam, the Tiller, I agree with you, but wondered about this.

Again, on the 6th Day, we see animal life recreated and man given dominion over these in the manner of Hunter / Gather along with the instructions to have good stewartship over the earth and the creatures, and be fruitful and replenish the earth.

Since Animals are CLEARLY already created, would you agree, that it was the DOMESTIC spieces that Adam named in chapter 2?

Just wondering, since a Chicken, is a Chicken in most languages. As are Cows, Donkeys, and so on.

Ciao

Shane

Good point. We may be seeing two creations. One of most everything, and one of a specific individual and his lifespace. Could be that the first creation account in Gen 1 is done in 6 literal days, with an aged appearance. Then, Adam comes on the scene in a secluded area, and is given the domestic animals, as you said, to name. These animals are "formed," unlike the others created or made. Hence, they may have a different characteristic, such as being edible, clean, or unique in some other way. Notice it is only beasts of the field and fowl of the air. There were probably not tens of thousands of species being formed in front of Adam, as you noted. More likely, just the beasts and fowl that he would be associated with for food or companionship...cattle, dogs, chickens, etc. After all, he was put in the garden to dress it and keep it, and to till the ground. Sounds very domesticated.

Originally posted by 4nsicphd

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
By Biblical standards, the Earth (and the whole Universe itself) are only 6,000 years old (give or take a century or two)

This is false. The Bible does NOT claim this. This is your whole argument. Therefore your whole argument is flawed.

This idea of 6000 literal years was brought up by people incorrectly interpreting what the bible actually does say. The bible does not mean that for every year mentioned it is a literal 365 day a year type of year.

oh-oh. Cognative dissonance is setting in. A leading fundagelical group says; "The Bible provides a complete genealogy from Adam to Jesus. You can go through the genealogies and add up the years. You'll get a total that is just over 4,000 years. Add the 2,000 years since the time of Jesus and you get just over 6,000 years since God created everything. (www.missiontoamerica.org...)
"oung earth creation scientists advance a number of reasons for the earth and universe being approximately 6,000 years"http://www.conservapedia.com/Young_earth_creationism#Biblical

Now it looks loke even the young earth creationists are beginning to bail on this theist BS.

I believe the Earth and the Universe indicate great age, the Earth at 4.5 million and the Universe at 13-14 Billion. No argument there. I also believe that they were created like that about 6000 years ago because God said it. I think that those who argue against this premise do not believe in the power of God. They conceive of him as a man, elevated in power and time. As God, He can do anything He wants...including making a Universe 13-14B years old in 6 days, about 6000 years ago. Why can't He?

[edit on 12/24/2009 by Jim Scott]

Originally posted by Jim Scott
I believe the Earth and the Universe indicate great age, the Earth at 4.5 million and the Universe at 13-14 Billion. No argument there. I also believe that they were created like that about 6000 years ago because God said it. I think that those who argue against this premise do not believe in the power of God. They conceive of him as a man, elevated in power and time. As God, He can do anything He wants...including making a Universe 13-14B years old in 6 days, about 6000 years ago. Why can't He?

Thus making Him the Great Deceiver! Thanks for proving my point!

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts

Originally posted by Jim Scott
I believe the Earth and the Universe indicate great age, the Earth at 4.5 million and the Universe at 13-14 Billion. No argument there. I also believe that they were created like that about 6000 years ago because God said it. I think that those who argue against this premise do not believe in the power of God. They conceive of him as a man, elevated in power and time. As God, He can do anything He wants...including making a Universe 13-14B years old in 6 days, about 6000 years ago. Why can't He?

Thus making Him the Great Deceiver! Thanks for proving my point!

If you consider it a deception. Perhaps it is for purposes of choice. Choose science and their logic that there is no God, or choose God and give Him credit for making everything.

For example, since all power comes from God:
Deut 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Just insert "science" into the "prophet or dreamer of dreams" and you have the test.


[edit on 12/24/2009 by Jim Scott]

I was reading long ago in the bible, I found a paragraph if I remember it was saying that years were calculated different and that people lived very long, days were also calculated different. Maybe one day ment who knows how long.


Itresting remarks in the bible.

Peter 3:8 "With the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

The same thing here.

Psalm 90:4 "For a thousand years in your site are like yesterday when it is passed, and like a watch in the night."

1000 X 6000 = 6.000.000.



[edit on 24-12-2009 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
OK, just to make things crystal clear here, in the OP I was refering to New Earth Creationists, those who accept and believe the story of Creation in Genesis LITERALLY!

No, You where not. And at this time, you still are not.

I am not a New Earth Creationist. I believe, as expressed earlier, the BIBLE is Literally expressing a Creation and Recreation Account, despite what Sects of Christianity may claim. The BIBLE is quite clear, when study and research is employed.

New Earth Creationist, are not your problem. Biblical Illiteracy is.

I Accept and Believe the story of the Genesis Account 100% and have no difficulties with what is expressed within the Text.

It expresses exactly how all things transpired from the first instance of the Creation of the Universe, (which some have refered to as the Big Bang Theory), and with any minimal effort placed in study of the Balance of GOD's Devinely Inspired Word, we see these details echoed throughout the Bible.

No, what you claim as some fanciful and misleading text, is nothing like this. It is precise, and complete, and validates many things which the New Age god, Science suggests occured.

Actually, I would even suggest that Science is only yet CATCHING UP TO what is within the Bible. How's that for something to consider?

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Jim Scott

Originally posted by Shane

I am not picking on you Jim, but curious how you noted the above.

Who are these peoples?

Good point. We may be seeing two creations. One of most everything, and one of a specific individual and his lifespace. Could be that the first creation account in Gen 1 is done in 6 literal days, with an aged appearance.

.......After all, he was put in the garden to dress it and keep it, and to till the ground. Sounds very domesticated.

So I do take it, You are one who believes a Day is a 24 Hour Day in the Genesis Account.

I do know and understand the concept quite well, and would applaud those who have devoted the time and efforts to seek out the evidence to support their views. And in all honesty, some of the evidence, when taken alone, is compelling.

I just find that this denies other material within the scriptures which express an ANCIENT Earth, with a fairly recent RECREATION, as it applies to the First Chapter. (Some of those have previously been noted here in various posts.)

Nevertheless, It is ones personal relationship with Jesus and GOD that is the main concern, and study of his word makes that all the closer.

Even as Christians, we must DENY IGNORANCE.

Ciao

Shane

Do you think they have these same arguments over Islam? lol.

Friends,I understand your confusion with the Bible, and scientifically, I admit it is a bit difficult at times to accept. BUT, it is probably one of the best and most accurate books collectively written.
As for ages and times, In the Book of Jeremiah, it is written that the Earth is populated by a sottish and hard headed people... and that previously, all men and all animals had been destroyed and the Earth left "void and without form." This is the language used in Genesis and where Genesis picks up. It is not referring to the Noah flood because men and animals did survive. In fact, there was a time or age prior to Genesis. This is where dinosaurs existed eons before and even advanced civilizations flourished afterwards
Never heard this? I hadn't either...it's there, dig deep and read what is actuallly written. This is the time period that Lucifer rebelled and subsequently became Satan... as he was Satan in the Garden of Eden in Genesis. So when did it happen? In the previous age.
No God is not a liar. He didn't want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowlege, as they would become mortal and die. As our DNA becomes genetically corrupt over time, we live shorter life spans... and we die.
As to time spans and time lines, yes, the Earth is older than 6000 years. The Bible is not a scientific or historic document, it is an account of the lineage of Adam to Jesus, and the family history there of... as well as the fulfillment of God's promise of salvation... for all.
However, it is valid on all fronts, the kingdoms can be varified from secondary and even third level sources. The archeology is there to support it, even finding cities that at one time were believed to be myths...ie Nineveh. The descriptions are so real and dead on accurate, that an account of David fighting the Philistines by using a goat path to come up a mountain into the rear of the enemy, was used in WW1 against the ottoman turks by a British Preacher turned officer. He even used the same rock outcropping to guide his way.
None of this will matter to non believers, ... oh well. God Bless You.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
By Biblical standards, the Earth (and the whole Universe itself) are only 6,000 years old (give or take a century or two).

At no point in the Bible is the age of the Earth discussed, nevermind in Genesis.

Regarding Creation, Genesis only says God created light and dark, separated the land from the water, put living things on Earth, then created Mankind. The Bible assigns "days" to denote the various stages of Creation, but a "day" for God could be 500,000,000 of our years, or even a billion or so years. God has a drastically different perception of Time than do human beings.

Nowhere does it say the Earth is only 6000 years old. So, your argument falls apart on its first paragraph.

— Doc Velocity






[edit on 12/25/2009 by Doc Velocity]

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
Lucifer rebelled and subsequently became Satan... as he was Satan in the Garden of Eden in Genesis.

Correction... Nowhere in Genesis is the Serpent of Eden identified as Satan or the Devil or anything else except as a serpent.

The use of a serpent tempting the first man and woman probably has its roots in a cult of snake-worshippers that were known to inhabit Mesopotamia (the home of Eden) a little over 4000 years ago, probably when the original Creation story was first being composed.

The snake-worshipping cult was probably perceived as evil and seductive and threatening to the newly formed religion that became Judaism. Hence the inclusion of a seductive snake in the Genesis story.

But it wasn't Satan — that's a widely believed misconception, even among most Christians.

— Doc Velocity

This thread is bs. You can believe in evolution, earths long ass history(being created in the universe and such) and the connection between the hebrew Septuagint wrapped neat a tightly with the bible around it. 6,000 years could of been when man was around (consciousness on earth) we did come from munkeys. yeah okay.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
I have grown weary of debating the finer points of Evolutionary Theory with those who lack the scientific knowledge to measure the boiling point of water, so let's try debating the other end of this issue: The Creation Myth.

If Genesis and the Bible are truly the 'Infallible Word of God', i.e. the ABSOLUTE TRUTH, then God is intentionally deceiving us by leaving evidence to the contrary in His Creation, the Earth and the Universe in which it resides. By Biblical standards, the Earth (and the whole Universe itself) are only 6,000 years old (give or take a century or two). Meanwhile, the physical evidence says quite a different story. It points to a Universe that is over 13 BILLION years old, and Earth that is over 4 BILLION years old, and that mankind is over 100,000 years old... Quite a difference!

Now if the Bible is correct and all of the physical evidence (let's just leave the origin of life and the diversity of species out of this one, shall we?) is false, then God is deceiving us... lying to us... leading us away from the Truth... Hmm, I seem to remember that being the purview of Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, the Serpent, or whatever name you wish to use for that entity... I don't care how you slice it, it is the equivalent of holding up an apple and stating, "THIS IS AN ORANGE!!!"

So, since there is absolutely ZERO evidence supporting the Creation Myth, and it must be taken on Faith alone, why would the Creator intentionally try to deceive His children, whom He proclaims to love??? (This out to be good!)

Sorry, but you are sorely mistaken. The Bible never mentions any time periods at all. First of all, the book of Genesis gives two accounts relating to creation. The first account is in chaper 1 and it details the order in which God spoke things in their design and how things would work. This is CREATION, just like an architect creates the plans for a building in his mind first, then on paper. This Hebrew word for "creation" does imply the designing of something, which constitutes the true essence of creating. One huge indicator of this is that the Hebrew says clearly that God invented the SOULS of the animals... though hidden in the English, what gets designed here are the NEPHESHIM (SOULS) of the creatures, and also the seed-propagation mechanism for plants.

This architectural process is given in terms of DAYS, but they occur before the "creation" of the SUN or STARS, so we can assume that DAYS here can be any time frame, even a thousand years per day.

Then in Genesis 2:4 we find the account of when the heavens and earth were MADE or FORMED. The order of events mentioned during the forming/making is much more in line with what science would say regarding these events. There is NO TIME-FRAME given for this making, and could encompass any period at all.

So, if you study Genesis in the original Hebrew and ignore the erroneous assumptions and dogma, a completely different picture is presented.

reply to post by Jim Scott


Science neither confirms nor denies the existance of 'God'. That is your bias towards science. Science deals merely with data. There is no data to confirm or dispute the existance of 'God', thus science makes no such claim.

reply to post by downisreallyup


I just love all of the sidestepping of issues here. The Old Testament most certainly does give the lineage of Adam right down to Jesus Himself. Thus a rough timeline and estimation of age is possible from the time of Adam to the present, PERIOD!