Crop Circles are Man Made, and here is why!

reply to post by spinalremain


Thank you for those kind words.

I do like to do my homework.
It is unfortunate that people will believe CC's like the Butterfly Man are not man made without actually looking for explanations first.
Crop Circle "researchers"(the main point of the OP), websites and blogs abound with assertions regarding the impossibility of humans as a cause for these by making assumptions via referring to complexity, size and "testimonies" relating to theses crop circles along with the all too familiar claim that they suddenly appear.
Unfortunately Speakeroftruth also makes assumptions, not only regarding crop circles, but also regarding myself.
I think I have clarified my position on all these assumptions adequately and informatively with as little of my own assumption as possible.

Whilst I find your commentary on the thread rather insightful and humorous, I prefer to think of my part of the discussion as being totally related to the truth. So I did not intended or set out to "own" Speakeroftruth but I rather simply share the truth with him.
Unfortunately the nature of our discussion has relegated the posters name to somewhat of an Oxymoron, Speakeroftruth.

I am glad you have enjoyed the thread.
Cheers.

reply to post by The Shrike


Thanks for your reply Shrike.

You are spot on. Like you, I thought arguing over the circles themselves as all being man made was a redundant process.
This is why my OP concentrates on showing Individuals who create, promote and profit from offering an alternative narrative to explain the circles.
I label it a narrative because they are effectively weaving a tale of mystery in order to suggest that something supernatural is occurring. Simply because they cannot show anything else making them.
By creating a strawman: "that some circles are man made but not all", as an argument they weave doubt into a believers minds when people like you or I simply say "ALL circles are man made".
The challenge is then made by believers that WE have to prove our claim. Whilst they offer nothing in anyway that explains the circles other than imagined entities, assumptions and 10 and 15 year old studies by BLT that are thoroughly flawed and ingrained in the mythology and psyche of Believers.

Which is why I have endeavored to answer those that site these poor arguments whilst ignoring my OP or what it shows in relation to highly motivated and self interested "researchers" that NEED crop circles and indeed are already planning tours, lectures etc and events around the CC's that are yet to appear. And that these Individuals are responsible for the very promotion of the mythology and new age religious philosophy that many believers site in relation to CC's.

So whilst it may not be necessary to convince anyone that we are 100% certain and that this is not a conclusion that is hard to reach.
I think we should argue against any ignorance that is thrown up that tries to attack that certainty that You, I or anyone else has in relation to the explanation that crop circles are man made because whilst it may not take a rocket scientist to work this out it generally takes just a few space cadets to confuse myths as the truth.

Thanks for you thoughts.


[edit on 27/12/09 by atlasastro]

you make good points in this thread but you havent said anything that i see as proof of all crop circles being man made. While you may be right on certain things to me you come off as arrogant.

Thanks for you reply,

Originally posted by Shake
you make good points in this thread but you havent said anything that i see as proof of all crop circles being man made.

As I have said numerous times before Shake. I do not need to prove that they are all man made. My hypothesis makes assumptions, I admit that, but by looking at the evidence I can make a hypothesis that they are all man made.

Shake, we have seen NO EVIDENCE to show anything other than HUMANS making CC's. My hypothesis that they are all man made is both logical and totally unchallenged by any alternative cause that is also supported by evidence.
So when you say I have no proof that all circles are man made, can you argue that claim with evidence that shows a cause actually making just some circles?
No you cannot.
So-
You need to set an impossible criteria, that being I have to prove ALL circles are man made, in order to prove something you cannot show at all, that being something else creating CC's.
This is a strawman, it is not an argument against my hypothesis.
To use an analogy, we know people build houses, we have evidence that humans build houses. I claim that ALL houses are man made. Do I have to show evidence that every house was built by people and if I cannot, does this mean that some houses are built by aliens?
Of course not!

While you may be right on certain things to me you come off as arrogant.

This may only mean you see people who are right as appearing arrogant. And nothing else.
Does my appearing arrogant mean anything in relation to the validity to my opinions and beliefs regarding the topic or is this the only argument you can muster, an argument against my character and nothing more?

.

reply to post by atlasastro

So tell me, where is the evidence to explain aliens doing it?

You ask me as if this is a claim I've made.As if I would be so foolish as
to give you this kind of ammo. I have never made any claim as to who
what or why.
What I believe isn't happening is what my comments are steeped in.
So in the photos you supplied in your reply to my post do they really look like
a crop circle to you? You don't see any difference? The one looks like it was done in the middle of a raceway or something, sure people try to emulate them, when it's convenient.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Seeker, since Atlas has laid out The Butterfly circle design as manmade, (and many others) which circles do you believe are made by aliens.

Without the insinuations and attacks, please give your side. State facts of why your special circles can't be manmade. I think that would suit the discussion.

Interesting. You certainly bring some suspicion to the table however.......acknowledging that these circles appear in a relatively small radius in England, why can't this guy be like a crop circle paparazzi? I mean, maybe he's lying in wait for them to appear.
Don't forget we have Stonehenge over there that still remains an enigma!

I just can't fathom how ordinary bi-pedal homo sapiens can create such intricate artwork though.

So, I'm remain on the side of either alien communications or some vibrational Earth forces that we know nothing about.

PS Do you think Nancy Talbott (BLT) is in on it too?

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


That is not correct. I'm actually very interested on why you believe they aren't all manmade. I just thought you could add reasons beyond just belief. If you just believe for the sake of believing, I suppose it's ok. You're free to believe whatever you like. What I don't understand is this........... If you clearly cannot staet or present any actual evidence beyond assumptions and belief; why do you attack others who bring more logical conclusions to the table? It's alarming to see that you start flailing at people and lash out instead of accepting what others are trying to show you. It's ok to admit that you may be incorrect. It isn't the end of the world when you realize that CC are a manmade phenomenon.

I guess I thought you had other reasons for believing in alien CC. Now we all see that your belief in CC is on the same page as my belief on Christ, only I don't lash out at people for thinking otherwise. I respect why they believe different. It's just that for me, it's something I have come to not need proof for. That's what faith is. All you had to say is that you have faith in alien CC. No one can refute what you feel in your heart. And no, I am not a clone of Atlas. I walk my own beat. I just thought the argument was funny as all hell. Even you have to admit the scorecard was great.

I said the site needs more ppl like him for the good of the website. A website full of faith in aliens is no better than Heavens Gate or other such things. This site is for seeking truth, not assuming aliens because of faith alone.

...

"xld-sign believers"

re the Butterfly Crop Circle:

...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/11e83d6abc86.jpg[/atsimg]

...

If any "xld-sign believers" would be unbiased in their debate
they would plainly admit that there is only
one single image posted at the xld-sign website?

That is not proof of anything,
besides, someone has figured out
how to upload an image to the web?

One image, a date and a note that the Butterfly
was allegedly made by a group of 60 people?

Besides this, there is no actual proof, they've made it?

Period.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/062e83a5b7b4.jpg[/atsimg]


You can read the actual facts and more here
at the dedicated ATS Butterfly CC thread:

"Da Vinci Crop Circle ( The Netherlands )"

www.abovetopsecret.com...




...

Contact/call xld-sign?

Their 'boss', Remco Delfgaauw,
has recently resigned from being a 'cropcircle artist'?

He's been too busy with selling
electronics equipment to Shell, BP, Totalfina, etc.

beverinnovations.com...

www.beverinnovations.com...

xld-sign does not provide contact information
at their website?

Only a form can you fill out
and you will never get any answers?

www.xld-sign.com...

xld-sign is not an actual registered company.

They only exist on-line, not on-paper.

Try call him (Delfgaauw) at his regular job?

Someone will tell you
that xld-sign is in no way responsible/accountable
for what external sites claim, and that one should
consult the xld-sign website for any information.

xld-sign has not posted the non-revealing video that
circulates on youtube at their site?

www.youtube.com...

Why?

xld-sign has only posted one single image?

www.xld-sign.com...

xld-sign has not posted any links
to external sites containing images/info?

So who posted these images?

cropcircle.bolhuus.nl...

defotograaf.smugmug.com...

Santa Claus?

xld-sign has only posted one single image?

I repeat:

xld-sign has only posted one single image.

No facts/details.

((( nothing )))

So, who made the Butterfly?

...

It must have been the fairies!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7819118a105c.jpg[/atsimg]

...
..
.



[edit on 27-12-2009 by Sol12]

reply to post by randyvs


You actually state that you have never seen any CC that "smack of graffiti and and that this is some how significant or casts doubt on all crop circles being Man Made. Here is what you said: "I don't know of one that smacks of Graffitti. Ask a forensics officer if humans don't always leave evidence. we should be seeing at least some evidence if they were man made.
To suggest this has been going on with no human factors none of the normal traits of human involvement."

So please do not move the goal post now that your argument is redundant.

As for being foolish, you list characteristics(these I put in bold) you think should be seen in order to verify these circles as being man made.
The most basic of debaters realizes that the absence of evidence is not is not evidence of absence, which is why my claim is that they are Man Made I do not claim that they are NOT MADE BY ALIENS as there is no evidence to show that aliens are making them there is a extreme lack or absence of evidence.
I use Evidence to support my belief and my claim.
If you think they are not man made because there is evidence you THINK is missing, simply SHOW actual EVIDENCE that something else is creating them, as the absence of what you think should be evidential, proves absolutely nothing.

I notice you totally Ignore all the NODE material. You actually accused me of failing in my OP for not addressing this issue. I will take it that you are satisfied that this is now explained to you as you have left my response to this issue totally unchallenged. As is usual of believers when they hit a brick wall of truth.


[edit on 27/12/09 by atlasastro]

I have the footage (fingers crossed!) in one of my many videotapes of UFOs and assorted material starting in the 1980s. One of these days I'll look through them, find the videotape and post the footage on YouTube.

www.science-frontiers.com...

Crop-circle contest
July 11-12, 1992. Buckinghamshire, England. On this dark night, in a barley field, 12 teams assembled in hopes of winning a $5,200 prize provided by the Koestler Foundation and the German Magazine PM. This sum was to be awarded to the best crop-circle hoaxers.

First prize went to three engineers from a British helicopter company, who used rope, plastic piping, and a ladder suspended from a trestle. Close behind in the competition was American J. Schnabel, who, working all alone, required only a plank, some rope, and a small garden roller to produce a creditable, rather elaborate design.

(Anonymous; "Circle Hoax Contest," Science, 257:481, 1992.)

Comment. The quality of the best entries assures us that hoaxing is not to be discounted as a major factor in cropcircle studies.

From Science Frontiers #83, SEP-OCT 1992. © 1992-2000 William R. Corliss

reply to post by Sol12

Great post dude!
Lots of stuff there. Will have a look at it all. A little bit more in depth when time permits, but just looking over it, You are right. Xl D-sign have One picture of them making the Butterfly Circle.
It is currently one photo more than anyone else has showing aliens making it.
It is also another photo's/video added among many of those documenting humans making circles in general, again many more than any photo/video evidence pointing to another cause.
You can cast doubt on that photo, sure. But it shows humans making a crop circle.
When you get one with Et's let me know.

I will endeavor to look at and respond to all the material you post.
Thanks again for adding some substance to you post, some others here could well learn by your approach.

reply to post by The Shrike


Thanks for adding something useful Shrike.
I would appreciate it if you did not engage a certain member who seems intent on derailing the thread with personal attacks.

Will check the it out though, thanks again.

Thanks for you reply Sol12

Originally posted by Sol12
...

"xld-sign believers"

re the Butterfly Crop Circle:

Ok, if you want to put it that way. OK. So that would make you a XL D-sign debunker. And if that is what you are trying to do, fair enough. I agree that we need to look at all the claims.
But, even if you think that XL D-sign did not make this circle, does that mean that HUMANS did not make it?
No.
The only way you can do that is to show another cause making the CC.
Can you do that in you argument against XL D-signs?
No you cannot and you do not.
So whilst I agree you can cast doubt on the claims made by XL D-signs, there is no evidence in your post that points to another cause.

If any "xld-sign believers" would be unbiased in their debate
they would plainly admit that there is only
one single image posted at the xld-sign website?

Yes. But it is that way with ALL of their PROJECTS.
Since 1999 they have only ever listed one image of each project. That is the nature of their organization. The fact that they continue this habit with the latest of those projects(the butterfly man) is consistent with their habits and does not infer that their claim is bogus simply because they don't need to prove their claim to YOU.
If this organization is only out to make these false claims in order to "perpetuate doubts regarding CC's", Why have they not claimed many other circles than they do?
Why has no one challenged any of their other circles or landscape art?


XL D-signs have all the photographic work captured by Joop van Houdt.
Joop is the one that released just some photo's.
XL D-signs contacted websites to let them know they made the circle.
You know this message can now be found on crop circle websites that have the intergerity to let this be known so Individuals can consider it when forming a belief in relation to the Butterfly man.
It seems in general that many people do not know of the XL D-signs claim.

Here are a few examples of sites dedicated to CC's that did this.
www.cabiz.net...
www.cropcircleconnector.com...
www.cropcircleconnector.com...
projectavalon.net...
twitter.com...
There is one link to XL D-signs message and then the rumors that sprung up around the circle.

You can use the photos for your sites as long as you respect the copyrights: XL D-Sign / Joop van Houdt.

The project is called Project Atlas. Project Atlas is, as far as we know from recent history, one of the biggest crop patterns ever made in one night. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The symbol aims to show the beauty and vulnerability of mankind. We from XL D-Sign also want to express with this symbol that mankind should be careful with this planet.

The size of the butterfly measures 530 meters to 450 meters. In one night (Date: 7-8-9) we created it with the help of 52 people.

The preparations of the project started 9 months ago.

For more information about XL D-Sign, please visit: www.xld-sign.com

Remko Delfgaauw XL D-Sign defotograaf.smugmug.com...

In other words they made the circle, let people know they made it and then released this statement with a few links to just some of the photo's with requests to respect copyrights.

That is not proof of anything,
besides, someone has figured out
how to upload an image to the web?

One image, a date and a note that the Butterfly
was allegedly made by a group of 60 people?

It is proof supplied by a group that claim they made the circle.
Whether you accept that claim is up to you.
If you claim it was not made by this group, or by humans, then please provide YOUR evidence that supports that. Other than casting doubt.

Besides this, there is no actual proof, they've made it?

Period.
You can read the actual facts and more here
at the dedicated ATS Butterfly CC thread:

"Da Vinci Crop Circle ( The Netherlands )"

I did, you are quite Vocal in your assertions that this is not man made.
So prove it.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There are plenty of posts supporting the Man made claim.

Originally posted by Haunebu
This is a hoax! Just look at the structure
Here are some pictures:
tweakers.net...
tweakers.net...
tweakers.net...
They were taken by someone who claimed he helped. He posted the links at the comments of the Dutch News report.

I found that interesting.


It is a video that shows people flattening crops.
When you get one with something non-human, post it.

Contact/call xld-sign?

Their 'boss', Remco Delfgaauw,
has recently resigned from being a 'cropcircle artist'?

Probably because lunatics keep calling his place of work demanding he prove he made the CC because they believe aliens did it.
That is a possible explanation is it not?

He's been too busy with selling
electronics equipment to Shell, BP, Totalfina, etc.

beverinnovations.com...

www.beverinnovations.com...

What does this prove, that Remco has a proper job too! Jesus H. Christ are you for real!
Maybe this only goes to show that he is not interested in milking people for money like those in my OP. So he actually earns his money with a real job rather than promoting a false religious belief in order to profit from it.

xld-sign does not provide contact information
at their website?

Only a form can you fill out
and you will never get any answers?

www.xld-sign.com...

They provide info.
It just does not fit your belief.
It fits my belief. I admit that.
If you can show me something other than humans making crop circles, videos and photos of this cause making crop circles and their own websites with over 10 previous crop circles or formations from nature, like XL D-signs, then do so.

xld-sign is not an actual registered company.

They only exist on-line, not on-paper.

XL D-sign never claimed they were a company, just a group that makes natural art.
OMG!
They only exist online.
Come on Dude, do you kno how many groups thee are online like this. Please!

Try call him (Delfgaauw) at his regular job?

Someone will tell you
that xld-sign is in no way responsible/accountable
for what external sites claim, and that one should
consult the xld-sign website for any information.

That sounds pretty reasonable. Why should XL D-signs be responsible for what other sites claim?

xld-sign has not posted the non-revealing video that
circulates on youtube at their site?

I know.
They clearly state a philosophy behind the circle, perhaps the point of the circle is more important then having people believe it is human or alien made. Perhaps that is why they are rather intent on the circle being just what it is without having to explain it anymore than they already have.
Have you considered that?

Why?

I don't know.
I also don't try and answer it with assumptions that: because they don't post it on the site that this must mean they didn't do what they claim to have done and that this must also mean that aliens made the circle.

xld-sign has only posted one single image?

www.xld-sign.com...

xld-sign has not posted any links
to external sites containing images/info?

So who posted these images?

Joop van Houdt?
Actually.
It was aliens.
Happy now.

cropcircle.bolhuus.nl...

defotograaf.smugmug.com...

The photo's are by Joop van Houdt.

Santa Claus?

No, Joop van Houdt.

xld-sign has only posted one single image?

I repeat:

xld-sign has only posted one single image.

Yes and they have had this habit with all of their designs. 13 of them. So they are artists with a history of being vague about what they do. Imagine that. Vague creative people!

And you have no images of anything non human, in the entire history of crop circles, making crop circles.
So XL D-signs is way ahead of you I would say.

I repeat:
You have no images of anything non human, in the entire history of crop circles, making crop circles.
So XL D-signs is way ahead of you I would say.

I will repeat it again:
You have no images of anything non human, in the entire history of crop circles, making crop circles.
So XL D-signs is way ahead of you I would say.

No facts/details.

((( nothing )))

So, who made the Butterfly?

Humans did.
Because we have lots of facts and details showing humans making circles.
You have no facts or details showing anything non human making anything at all, ever, let alone crop circles.

It must have been the fairies!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7819118a105c.jpg[/atsimg]

No, I believe it was humans. Because:
We know humans exist.
We know humans make crop circles.
We have proof that they make crop circles.

Everything about the Butterfly crop circle is HUMAN.
The imagery.
The Beliefs it inspires and the philosophy it is promoting.
Human.

If you could point out anything other than humans that made it, the non human imagery that inspired it, and the non human beliefs and philosophy that it represents, then I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks again for your post.





[edit on 28/12/09 by atlasastro]

reply to post by atlasastro

Originally posted by atlasastro
Great post dude!
Lots of stuff there. Will have a look at it all.
A little bit more in depth when time permits, but just looking over it,
You are right. Xl D-sign have One picture of them making the Butterfly Circle.

...

Thanks atlasastro.

Can you proof for fact, I'm a dude?

In any case,

I'm glad you are willing to admit
that besides one single image, no substantial proof
has been provided by xld-sign to their claim yet.

No facts/details/proof?

No claim.

Simple.

Originally posted by atlasastro
Xl D-sign have One picture of them making the Butterfly Circle.

Now, where do you see "them making the Butterfly Circle"??

Below is the actual, and one and only, single image
that is posted at the xld-sign website?

www.xld-sign.com...


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5d93719ac1d7.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by atlasastro
It is a video that shows people flattening crops.
When you get one with something non-human, post it.

Could you please point out where you see
people flattening crops in this video I've posted??

Originally posted by atlasastro
If you claim it was not made by this group, or by humans,
then please provide YOUR evidence that supports that.
Other than casting doubt.

...

I'm not the one making any claims,
therefore, I'm not the one "casting doubt"?

xld-sign is making a claim.

xld-sign is "casting doubt" by NOT providing
any substantial supporting evidence nor proof to their claim?

You see?

xld-sign is making the claim,
they've created the Butterfly.

xld-sign has not provided any substantial facts
to support their claim yet.

The burden of proof is on the claimant.

No?

...

re: Joop van Houdt.

Obviously I do know who is Joop van Houdt.

He is the one who flip-flopped,
from being the utterly surprised and astounded discoverer
(aerial photographer), to someone who helped
to cover-up the story of the appearance of the Butterfly.

You can read my take on this, and about
many other obvious inconsistencies
in the "xld-sign-story", at the dedicated Butterfly CC thread:

"Da Vinci Crop Circle ( The Netherlands )"

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you understand Dutch,
you can listen below to an excerpt where
Joop is interviewed at a Dutch national radio show
after he had emailed one of his fresh taken photos
on the 7th of August 2009, the day the Butterfly appeared.

He was only introduced as Joop.

Joop makes it quite clear how utterly amazed he is about
what he has seen/photographed and that he has no idea
to who made this Butterfly, and that he is not involved?

He never mentioned xld-sign?

"it is of a monstrous size"

"how very accurate is this design".

"These have to be very special people, try and do this
at night, if you would only see how perfect this is".





media.abovetopsecret.com...

In the days following he suddenly flip-flopped??

...

Conclusion:

The only actual hard fact in this story
is a giant Butterfly Crop Circle.

The definite answer to the question
who created this Butterfly,
for now, is a belief either way?

Period.

...

Similar can be said for
the CropCircle/UFO phenomenon in general?

Then again, anyone can study the evidence/facts
and make up his/her own private mind accordingly.

Some people know, some believe, some are in denial.

Free Will.

Isn't it wonderful?

Meanwhile Fairies keep gently hovering around
making flash appearances and Crop Circles.




[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/498ff54db960.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7819118a105c.jpg[/atsimg]

...
..
.

I don't see how you can say that all crop circles are man made, how could you possibly know? That is kind of like saying that there are no ETs out there because there is no definitive proof. Sorry not the best comparison but you catch my drift I'm sure.

Have you seen the video in the other CC thread? The one where a group of people camp out and see a short flash of white light and then the next morning there is a crop circle?

I am up on the fence with this one. It could be advanced military techwho knows????? Peace

Originally posted by Sol12


Thanks atlasastro.

Can you proof for fact, I'm a dude?

I am guessing you are man made though.

I'm glad you are willing to admit
that besides one single image, no substantial proof
has been provided by xld-sign to their claim yet.

No facts/details/proof?

As I have said before. XL D-signs have had a habit of only using one photo of their work for each project over a ten year period.
Joop van Houdt has images of their previous work on his OWN website. I will address this later.

No claim.

Simple.

Well, there quite clearly is a claim. They simply claim they did it. You don't believe them. I do. I think that is the simple explanation.

Now, where do you see "them making the Butterfly Circle"??

Below is the actual, and one and only, single image
that is posted at the xld-sign website?

www.xld-sign.com...

I know.
But you know TWO sites have been linked with Joops Photo's and the Pics with them making a circle.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5d93719ac1d7.jpg[/atsimg]
Yes, XL D-Signs have posted this on their site to say they made it. As they have done with over 10 natural formations over a 10 year period.
I guess they are covering all those up too?
WHY would they claim this circle, can I ask you.
What do you think the purpose is?

Could you please point out where you see
people flattening crops in this video I've posted??

Not that one. You linked this one too.
www.youtube.com...

I'm not the one making any claims,
therefore, I'm not the one "casting doubt"?

xld-sign is making a claim.

xld-sign is "casting doubt" by NOT providing
any substantial supporting evidence nor proof to their claim?

You see?

You doubt the claim.
XL D-signs claim they did it. They have a history of making these, which you seem to ignore. They have a history of being Vague about their art.
The reason why I accept the claim is because of many reasons.
We know crop circles are man made and that groups are active in this. XL D-signs are not unique. So XL D-signs claim that they did it is not unusual.

We know that many crop circles do not have claims made regarding the authors of them. I think this makes XL D-signs interesting as a group that does not appear have a habit of Just making CC claims with dutch circles, so why the Butterflyman?
The crop circle is full of human imagery and philosophy.
We know humans exist and we know humans make crop circles.
I also know that in the entire history of the crop circle phenomena, there is not one bit of solid evidence that suggests or even proves any other explanation.
I have no problem with XL D-signs for these reasons.

I know they have not satisfied your criteria, and I can accept that and agree to an extent that they are vague and ambiguous at best. I too would love to see a whole load of photo's.
I would also love to see just ONE photo of something else creating them if they are not by man. Just one.
So, I will do this for the sake of moving the discussion on.
I will accept that XL D-signs will not be used to explain the Butterfly CC.
This, however, does not rule out humans as a cause.
So my argument that they are man made still stands because you cannot rule humans out.
Now, if you want to inject another cause, show me why it should be accepted as a possible explanation?

xld-sign is making the claim,
they've created the Butterfly.
xld-sign has not provided any substantial facts
to support their claim yet.
The burden of proof is on the claimant.

No?

I agree for now.
As I said, to move on I will not accept XL D-signs as showing they made the circle.
Humans are not ruled out though as XL D-signs claimed only 60 people were involved. So now you need to eliminate a few million dutch people and possible some english pranksters.
OR you can provide evidence that something other than man made it. Using the same regard for evidence that you would expect from XL D-signs.

re: Joop van Houdt.

Obviously I do know who is Joop van Houdt.

He is the one who flip-flopped,
.................................
in the "xld-sign-story", at the dedicated Butterfly CC thread:

"Da Vinci Crop Circle ( The Netherlands )"

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you understand Dutch,
you can listen below to an excerpt where
Joop is interviewed at a Dutch national radio show
after he had emailed one of his fresh taken photos
on the 7th of August 2009, the day the Butterfly appeared.

He was only introduced as Joop.

Joop makes it quite clear how utterly amazed he is about
what he has seen/photographed and that he has no idea
to who made this Butterfly, and that he is not involved?

He never mentioned xld-sign?

"it is of a monstrous size"

"how very accurate is this design".

"These have to be very special people, try and do this
at night, if you would only see how perfect this is".

Joop could have been playing along to promote the Circle when it was first made. That is possible. Joop also does aerial photography. Joop has worked with XL D-signs before.
Here is a link to Joops site, it has the sameROC formation made by XL D-signs in 2007.
Perhaps the way the circle was then manipulated on sites prompted them to clarify the idea and intent behind the design and to also stop others infusing it with false beliefs. The message sent to crop circle connector that was then passed around seems to say as much.
I can infer as much here about Joop as you can infer he is trying to cover something up!

Did you notice that JOOP said that "people" made it.
Did he flip flop on that at all?
No.
Did he flip flop on the complexity or size?
No.
So what did he flip flop on exactly?
He sounds amazed! Maybe he was. By Humans. Humans who made the circle.
Joop knew who made it, he just didn't say that.

On the links you supplied there is a photo of three guys in the middle of the circle.
Joops photo's. Of course Joop, a professional photographer that also specializes in aerial photography, just happened to have a helicopter ready on the 7th. Just happened to be called about the CC, Joop also happened to have worked with XL D before. How amazing hey! Amazing co-incidences always seem to occur around contrived events.

Are you saying that the XL D-sign guys then went to the circle after it was made, created the video to explain it, took some photos of the XL D-sign guys in the middle in order to cover up what exactly?
defotograaf.smugmug.com...

In the days following he suddenly flip-flopped??

What did he flip flop on exactly.

Conclusion:

The only actual hard fact in this story
is a giant Butterfly Crop Circle.
The definite answer to the question
who created this Butterfly,
for now, is a belief either way?
Period.

As I said, I will take your side on the XL D-sign argument.
BUT.
My belief that crop circles are man made is not just a belief.
It is based on facts.
Man exists.
People make crop circles.
There are groups of people that make crop circles.
So while I assume that this one is man made.
It is not based on a belief, it is a belief expressed but on based in reality.

NOW.
If you have reason to believe this CC was not man made.
Then please tell me why I should believe it! Other than you just believe it.

Similar can be said for
the CropCircle/UFO phenomenon in general?

What I find similar about the two is that people inject aliens as an explanation with no evidence and just assumptions.
The UFO phenomena stands for Unidentified Flying objects. Yet people Identify the Objects as immediately being Alien Technology that has Aliens inside them. They do the same with CC's.

Then again, anyone can study the evidence/facts
and make up his/her own private mind accordingly.

Absolutely.
It is funny thought that the only evidence we are arguing about is directly to do with humans. All of it.
All the stuff we are discussing is human related. Think about that my friend.
As vigorous and astute as you are in discussing XL D-signs, it is human evidence relating to a phenomena that is known to be created by humans.

Some people know, some believe, some are in denial.

That can swing anyway you want it to and serves no purpose other than to attack individuals.
You don't need that tactic bro!
I will argue though that I am not in denial that something other then humans are making crop circles, because there is simply no evidence that I am in denial of, because there simply is no evidence. Period.
That is why you are here arguing over of the validity of human evidence related to a claim about a crop circle.

Free Will.

Isn't it wonderful?

Yes it is.
Especially with religious beliefs involving supernatural causes for CC's.

Meanwhile Fairies keep gently hovering around
making flash appearances and Crop Circles.

Where are they appearing making circles?
Most of the crop circles appear in the ame areas. So they are not flash appearances. In fact, if you refer to my OP, you will see a list of tours, lectures and conferences already organized around next years crop circle formations. So these circles and Fairies are expected mate! Yet in 20 years, no one has ever found anything that shows anything non human making circles.
Don't you find that interesting?


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Dude!
I wish fairies like that were real.

Thanks again for a great post.


[edit on 30/12/09 by atlasastro]

Originally posted by vehemes terra eternus
I don't see how you can say that all crop circles are man made, how could you possibly know?

So how can you possibly say that something else is making them. How do you know?
I know humans exist.
I know they make circles.

That is kind of like saying that there are no ETs out there because there is no definitive proof. Sorry not the best comparison but you catch my drift I'm sure.

I am not saying that ET's don't exists. I think there is ET life out there, I just don't assume the habits or characteristics of that ET life nor do I assume that they must be making CC's.
But lets look at what you are saying.
You are kind of like saying that ET's exist, they travel here, and they are making circles. You are also saying that it is impossible that man is making all the CC's.
So why do you believe that?
And why should I?

Have you seen the video in the other CC thread? The one where a group of people camp out and see a short flash of white light and then the next morning there is a crop circle?

Read the OP please.
That video is in the OP.

I am up on the fence with this one. It could be advanced military techwho knows????? Peace

Fair enough. although if it is advanced tech, then that makes them man made.
Peace to you too mate and thanks for adding your thoughts.

reply to post by atlasastro

...

Originally posted by atlasastro
I am guessing you are man made though.

Technically, Man/Woman made.

Originally posted by atlasastro

I know they have not satisfied your criteria,
and I can accept that and agree to an extent
that they are vague and ambiguous at best.

I too would love to see a whole load of photo's.
I would also love to see just ONE photo of something else
creating them if they are not by man. Just one.

So, I will do this for the sake of moving the discussion on.

I will accept that XL D-signs will not be used to explain the Butterfly CC.

Fair.


As far as I'm aware,
you are the first Crop Circle skeptic at ATS
to arrive at this, by all means, reasonable conclusion
regarding existing facts/details/xld-sign and the Butterfly.

Sincerely, my hat of to you.

Originally posted by atlasastro
They simply claim they did it.
You don't believe them. I do.
I think that is the simple explanation.

Agreed.

...

I wrote, regarding CC/UFO phenomenon in general:

Originally posted by Sol12
Some people know, some believe, some are in denial.

I had no intention to "attack individuals"
by making this observation?

As you've correctly pointed out, it does work both ways?

Originally posted by atlasastro
NOW.
If you have reason to believe this CC was not man made.
Then please tell me why I should believe it! Other than you just believe it.

I don't expect nor advice anyone to merely "believe".

My point regarding the Butterfly CC has been
that it is, yet, up to xld-sign to prove their claim?

We have been debating details/facts?

As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to beliefs,
it is really up to the individual.

The purpose of me entering this thread is not to disprove
your statement i.e. claim that (all) CCs are man-made.

It is your job to prove/debate your statement/claim?

As far as the majority of Crop Circles is concerned,
there exists NO actual substantial evidence, they would be man-made?

Does this 'prove', all the unexplained ones are made by extra-terrestrials?

No.

It does mean, we are dealing with a largely unexplained phenomenon?

The debate is still open.

So far, we agree:

You've gotta Love them Fairies!


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