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Originally posted by 767doctor
I don't like the word proof; it's too absolute.
Like what?
Do you accept that there is, at the very least, some evidence that AA77 may have hit the Pentagon?
Do you accept that there is some evidence of aircraft parts?
RADES radar data from multiple sources? FDR data which depicts the final 40 hours of AA77's flight history?
And the DNA proves...? That people with that DNA one existed. So far there is not one credible story of how the DNA survived, its chain of custody, why there are two passenger manifests and even though they said the first one was 100 percent of the identified people minus ONE, suddenly that became the first and only Airline supplied VICTIM SEATING LIST. So they identified people that were not on the plane as well as managed to get the DNA to match people they had no reference DNA or id for. The FBI has admitted they have not really identified all of the terrorists but some of those terrorists that were NOT identified were 'identified' in this supposed crash, so.....the DNA does not impress me much. Maybe if you can get the coroner to go back and change his very clear statement that there was NOTHING to be collected. Get the FBI to match their story with the OS their bosses kept touting as well as explain to me how the same plane that made it through all those walls, and THEN, vaporized managed to spit out the DNA. Same problem you have in NYC. The DNA only proves that the letter agency that dropped of this DNA had some place to go get it. If that plane did not crash into the Pentagon, then they had a pretty ready source of DNA to pretend that it did - minus the terrorists.
DNA evidence of passengers and crew who boarded AA77?
100+ eyewitness accounts of the crash?
If you accept that there is some evidence, we can go on. If not, there is no point in continuing further.
ack to the parts ID'ing for a moment. Do you agree that if such "positive ID" is standard NTSB practice, that there will be evidence available on the internet to determine as much?
Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by Lillydale
What exactly are you looking for? The plane parts #'s? Why would that ever satsify you? Anybody can produce reports with matching numbers on them.
Why not just come out and say it - you know flight AA77 crashed into the Pentagon, but you are having a lot more fun pretending it didn't.
Normally nobody would care, its like the creationist who do not want to publically accept the overwhelming scientific evidence of evolution because they are personally invested in the promotion or promulgation of their own rhetoric.
But creationist really don't bother too many people. Your little dogma, however, would promote the idea that hundreds if not thousands of good decent people conspired to kill thousands of their fellow Americans- and that is not harmless.
Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by Lillydale
Exactly how is the "creationist" dogma responsible for hundreds of thousands throughout history when it is a recent phenom, a reaction to a legal decision in the 20th century to teach only evolution in schools. Scopes is only a few decades old. But I should chalk that up to just more unfounded rhetoric to avoid the obvious.
You have basically settled your own argument by noting that the government does not see it as necessary to do a matching parts investigation as they and the rest of the world are satisfied that it was Flight AA77 that did strike the Pentagon on Sept. 11, 2001. The totality of the evidence supports that fact
You may have also noted that there is not a mountain of data available from the government regarding weather conditions that day in Washington. Why? Because, like mechanical failure, it to was deemed as not being a factor in the crash and therefore the data was not gathered, just like the parts identification. But there is mountains of weather data available from other crashes where weather is thought to be a factor in the crash.
Apparently you are confused as to the definition of either dogma or creationist as creationist dogma has existed for a few thousand years.
What evidence?????? Just saying this over and over again does very little to help. I have asked for this MOUNTAIN of evidence many many many times and have you to see it
So before it was known to be a terrorist attack, the only two choices we had were mechanical failure or weather? Maybe you need to try thinking a little bit harder.
Originally posted by Lillydale
Even in a murder? Over 3000 Americans were killed that day. OJ Simpspons walked because the only thing that was missing was absolute proof. We had DNA, fingerprints, witnesses, and on and on and on but he go off because there was no absolute proof. Iraq and Afghanistan did not get off so easily and it is ok with you that we do need PROOF?
I would be more than happy to. Show me on airplane part and tell me how you know what plane it came from and we can roll with that all day long.
Well, What can I say about the radar and FDR except that they are both collections of data and I am not sure why either side thinks that either one is some holy grail. Basically this is assuming that the perpetrator could not fake data. It just brings me back to the fact that I have not seen any convincing evidence myself. That is what you asked, right?
And the DNA proves...? That people with that DNA one existed. So far there is not one credible story of how the DNA survived, its chain of custody, why there are two passenger manifests and even though they said the first one was 100 percent of the identified people minus ONE, suddenly that became the first and only Airline supplied VICTIM SEATING LIST. So they identified people that were not on the plane as well as managed to get the DNA to match people they had no reference DNA or id for. The FBI has admitted they have not really identified all of the terrorists but some of those terrorists that were NOT identified were 'identified' in this supposed crash, so.....the DNA does not impress me much. Maybe if you can get the coroner to go back and change his very clear statement that there was NOTHING to be collected. Get the FBI to match their story with the OS their bosses kept touting as well as explain to me how the same plane that made it through all those walls, and THEN, vaporized managed to spit out the DNA. Same problem you have in NYC. The DNA only proves that the letter agency that dropped of this DNA had some place to go get it. If that plane did not crash into the Pentagon, then they had a pretty ready source of DNA to pretend that it did - minus the terrorists.
Ahh now I see the problem. Do you want me to admit it is possible AA77 hit the Pentagon or do you want me to admit there is some evidence that it happened. I can admit it is possible that did happen. As far as evidence that it happened? Well, you tell me. You just claimed there were over 100 witnesses to this crash. You offered a link. You are either new here or been somewhere else. This is one of my favorites.
Please go through your supplied list of 100s of people that saw the crash. Please pull out 100 that actually saw the crash. Can you find fifty? How about 40? I was also told scores so I will not challenge you to more than two score. This doe not mean people that say it crashed but could not have seen it happen from where they were. This does not mean people that say it crashed because they assume that is what happened AFTER they could no longer actually see it. This means people that actually saw the crash. Can you give me 40?
Originally posted by thomk
A piece of AA77 w/ serial number:
"The part in question is the power supply for the emergency lights. ...I assure you it was Flight 77, AA 757 5BP."
-AMTMAN
forums.randi.org...
You want to read about the decision on recording Serial Numbers & finding the FDRs, type "flight data recorder" into "search inside", and read the story.
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261422305&sr=1-1#reader_B002NPCSXM
And even tho the Angry Young Boys will still be dissatisfied, here is mountain of evidence that AA77 hit the Pentagon.
wtc7lies.googlepages.com...
Tom
[edit on 21-12-2009 by thomk]
That is the problem with your premise. You want me to just accept that there is evidence. How about show me real evidence. Not lists that are not actually lists of what they claim to be. This nonsense about DNA is just that. I guess it make sense to think that the LAPD is planting DNA all over murder scenes but the government has not yet figured out how to kill people, take DNA samples, and then drop them at the lab? Was anyone at the lab there to collect the DNA. Who know the chain of custody?
Show me any DNA that was collected on the scene. What was it from? How was it collected? The plane being identified as the correct plane, or as a plane at all. Where is any of that? OH, you have data. You have data that is even still being argued about at this very point so how much should I be accepting that? With the work that I do, I cannot imagine how anyone thinks any collection of data can not be faked. You cannot fake DNA. You cannot fake plane parts. Just turn up some at the crash scene and be over with it.
I can admit that the OS is possible. What I can not do is just ACCEPT that there is evidence just because some people think it is good enough. If it is not good enough for our justice system when it comes to small scale murders, it is not good enough for our justice system at all.
Originally posted by iSunTzu
On September 11, 2001 when the passengers of Flight 77 were murdered.
All the news agencies got it right.
If you have evidence to the contrary you can sue them for telling lies.
It has been 8 years did you miss the news on September 11th 2001?
No one has evidence to the contrary yet. Good luck
Originally posted by iSunTzu
reply to post by GhostR1der
Where is the evidence to prove it is not Flight 77?
Bare assertions (7)
What is stopping someone from exposing the Flight 77 hoax? facts and evidence; lol.
The only proof offered the plane parts are not Flight 77 is talk and zero substance.
No one has or will prove the government is lying.
No one will take their proof (vaporware so to speak), write a paper and get a Pulitzer Prize.
Woodward and Bernstein did it for the Post with Watergate. Woodward and Bernstein exposed Watergate and forced the President to resign. Why can't someone do it for real instead of spreading wild speculation and fantasy?
8 years is enough time to earn a PhD on 911 but people claiming 77 is not identified are only repeating false information.
Flight 77 was identified on 911. No one in the world has proved different. That requires evidence and it is not there.
-witnesses all verify 77 impacted the Pentagon.
Why do people perpetrate this fraud that 77 is not the plane?
appeal to motive (15), appeal to spite (16), appeal to consequences (17)
Is capitalism the motivator for the conspiracy theory industry? Selling books, DVDs, and TV shows to the masses that are willing to accept hearsay, false information and wild fantasies keep the 911 conspiracy theories going. None of those behind the marketing of conspiracy products offer evidence; they will offer whatever they think the conspiracy market wants to hear no matter how anti-intellectual it is.
bare assertion (18)
No one has refuted all the simultaneous RADAR sites tracking Flight 77 to the Pentagon? What is wrong, some technical problem with decoding the data. The data is available, why avoid the evidence by ignoring it. The RADAR data is evidence, it shows Flight 77 ends at the Pentagon. With the FDR you can see the height above the ground go from 273 feet to 233, 183, 89, 57, and the final RADALT reading from the FDR of 4 feet. These FDR entries match the eyewitnesses.
straw man (19)
The detail, the small details kill the fantasy (the big fireball). The jet fuel fireball is exactly what a 757 with the fuel of Flight 77 would look like in a 483 KIAS impact. No one can refute this fact with evidence or experience.
straw man (20)
Has anyone told the loved ones of the dead, you know the dead passengers on Flight 77 found in the Pentagon identified by serial number (aka DNA) that it was all fake and they can rejoice their loved ones are not dead, it was all faked they are in Kokomo with the Beach Boys drinking beers in witness protection.
bare assertion (21)
What is the single integrated operation plan to go with no Flight 77? Does anyone have a coherent story backed with evidence? No, because all the evidence shows 77 crashed into the Pentagon.
Originally posted by hooper
As far as I know only the FDR was identified
Originally posted by GhostR1der
Wouldn't they want to harp on about a matched serial number from landing gear or other hard airframe component?
And the utter ridicule of not identifying multiple parts of a 100 tonne plane with a legitimate, scientifically proven, normal air crash investigation method - as well as with the WTC aircraft accident investigation sites!
Originally posted by thomk
Long story short:
NTSB does not, and never has, used serial numbers of parts to identify planes. There are other, much more reliable methods, of determining the identity of any crashed plane.
According to Susan Stevenson of the NTSB on 12/26/2007
"Yes. NTSB investigators rarely encounter a scenario when the identification of an accident aircraft is not apparent. But during those occasions, investigators will record serial numbers of major components, and then contact the manufacturer of those components in an attempt to determine what aircraft the component was installed upon."
Originally posted by 911files
The assertion that serial numbers were not obtained is simply false. We will simply have to wait until the prosecutions are over and the files released to know exactly what identifiable parts were recovered.
Originally posted by Lillydale
Hmmmm....so which is it? The parts have all been cataloged by SN or they were not because the NTSB NEVER DOES THAT, it has NEVER BEEN DONE, is NOT BEING DONE HERE, and HAS NO NEED TO BE DONE. I guess I get confused when OS stories trip over each other.
Originally posted by 911files
Originally posted by Lillydale
Hmmmm....so which is it? The parts have all been cataloged by SN or they were not because the NTSB NEVER DOES THAT, it has NEVER BEEN DONE, is NOT BEING DONE HERE, and HAS NO NEED TO BE DONE. I guess I get confused when OS stories trip over each other.
You have a hard time keeping up don't you. I never said anything about the NTSB. The FDR was never in the custody of the NTSB. It was taken to the NTSB under the supervision of the FBI and its contents downloaded onto a computer. The actual FDR was evidence in a criminal investigation and as such remained in the custody of the FBI. Once the NTSB did its thing, the FDR left the building with the FBI. I'm not sure what part of the 'assisting the FBI' role of the NTSB you don't understand. So again, FBI handled the investigation, NOT the NTSB.
The assertion that serial numbers were not obtained is simply false. We will simply have to wait until the prosecutions are over and the files released to know exactly what identifiable parts were recovered.