The majority of Americans came to America in the last century and didn't kill Indians or enslave bl

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Balderdash! Hate is writing off black and native inequities without considering the root causes...

Granted there are people whose ancestors did evil on to others and they might have guilt feelings about such things, as it seems you do, and should have such feelings. But don't expect the blameless Americans to ease those guilt feelings for you or whoever. America has bent over backwards to help those who need or want help regardless of fault and whether they deserve such help or not. But some people keep whining the more that is done for them. It's a no win situation.

I don't feel guilty. I figure I address the issue as best I can. I can see that what is being done now is not working, and is self perpetuating so I look to alternatives. I'm no wanna be or shoulda bin...I simply see the problems around me and seek answers...what is it? Better to light one candle than to curse the darkness? So as long as the money is being trotted out, why not look for a more effective way to use it? Beats bitching on a website.

I don't want to make anyone mad, but,:

As for the Native Americans:

I am sorry to say this, but, they are a defeated people and nation. However unfortunate that maybe, however bad the atrocities were/are, those were the rules being used at the time when the settled parts of America expanded westward. Change and clash of culture was going to happen no matter what. It was the mindset of the those in charge. Playing nice in the sandbox was never and option. The Native Americans got screwed at every turn and still do.

Now, that by no means excuses it.


As for slave trade, its origins didn't start in America. Our fore fathers got their ideas on slaves from their ancestors.

www.wisegeek.com...

Again, this doesn't excuse it, but, lets not Credit America with its inception.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Ok bud,I will make an assumption here but I may be wrong I don't know.
I think you are Canadian.Just a guess,sorry if I'm wrong,I have many canadian expat friends here on the island.

If I as a white american am guilty of the "sins of the father" even though my family wasn't personally involved...
Then isn't your country(and with it you) as a descendant of the british empire culpable for EVERY colony england ever had?
That's right buttercup,america,india,china(well hong kong) and africa.

ALL of it is YOUR FAULT.
now fix it.
wassamatter? beaver got yer tongue?
=)


[edit on 24-12-2009 by the_grand_pooh-bah]

Originally posted by the_grand_pooh-bah
ALL of it is YOUR FAULT.
now fix it.

You know, if you look back to the last couple of my postings, I have actually made a couple of suggestions. If you can't be bugged doing that, then why should I be bugged repeating myself?

But I will say, any fixes will start with respect...and that's why the nay-sayers on this thread will never understand.

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Daniem
?

The United States Congress in Washington DC is ground zero for White Guilt and Slavery Apologists, although no such thing as slavery has existed in this nation for more than 140 years:







— Doc Velocity

Obviously, you,ve never heard of Immokolee, Florida, where tomato harvesters were found to be enslaved.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


i read your posts.
my point is we are only responsible for our own actions,not father's
my point is that we can focus on the future or spend it trying to even a playing field that can never be even.
the concept of fairness is a human concept.
show me something fair in nature.

time is money
if the time we have spent discussing this crap had been spent spreading the word that slavery still exists in the world maybe they tell some people and they'd tell some more etc etc.
other than that we are just generating animosity,a less than pointless endeavor actually counter-productive to the species.

SLAVERY STILL EXISTS PEOPLE
oh well,whatever nobody else cares about those enslaved today.
they just want a level ELITE playing field.
screw the peasants eh?

Originally posted by the_grand_pooh-bah
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

i read your posts.
my point is we are only responsible for our own actions,not father's
my point is that we can focus on the future or spend it trying to even a playing field that can never be even.
the concept of fairness is a human concept.
show me something fair in nature.
time is money
if the time we have spent discussing this crap had been spent spreading the word that slavery still exists in the world maybe they tell some people and they'd tell some more etc etc.
other than that we are just generating animosity,a less than pointless endeavor actually counter-productive to the species.

SLAVERY STILL EXISTS PEOPLE
oh well,whatever nobody else cares about those enslaved today.
they just want a level ELITE playing field.
screw the peasants eh?

And I read your posts. You came on board with the following post:

The majority of Americans came to America in the last century and didn't kill Indians or enslave blacks. Yet the two big beefs about Americans are that they killed Indians and stole their land and they brought black slaves here. Baloney! Millions of Chinese, Italians, Germans, Irish and people from every corner of the world came to America to escape tyranny in their own countries and to have a chance to make a life for themselves. They didn't kill or enslave anyone! So back off, all you haters of Americans! Reparations are designed to dived and conquer America, and they are winning with deceit and baloney!

I assume from your own words that you were talking about reparations in America, and I extended the discussion to Canada, because we share so many of the history and the societal problems that exist as a result.

Looks to me that you are trying to squirm out of any notion of institutional debt owed by pointing at other issues and taking me to task for ignoring them. Yet I have a hunch that if I were to start a thread about present-day slavery abroad, I'd be hearing about matters left unsaid at home. This thread is not about slavery, it is about economics and sociology.

You will also note that I am not suggesting that we open the chequebook further...but that we spend what we spend...smarter.

But by all means if you want to start a thread...hell, start a charitable foundation to go out and do something about slavery...by all means.

Just don't call me down for stating the obvious...and keeping on topic.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


sorry,that wasn't me that was the other dude.
even though i agree with it.
majority means more than 50%
the OP is literally correct.

everything else has been debates about what that implies about whatever.

it's ok we all make mistakes

and it's kinda funny,i actually am working on the said charity,I wanted to buy slaves to liberate them and microfinance them to form their own fishing fleets.buy them but release every 6 months and give them stock in the fleet.still a work in progress.just funny how you accidentally touched on it...


[edit on 24-12-2009 by the_grand_pooh-bah]

Originally posted by the_grand_pooh-bah
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

sorry,that wasn't me that was the other dude. it's ok we all make mistakes

Forgive me...I have a cold and I'm rapidly dissolving in a glob of...well, you know. Starts with the brains, eh?

But my point should come through...not more but smarter. And individually we can only attend to so much of the world's ills. I put charity and efforts in certain places, I try to spend my dollars (loonies) ethically, and I can only assume that others will follow their own directions. I try to elect leaders that will promote my values, and extend them on a national scale. And I teach my kids the value of living in a multicultural society.

One does what one can. Merry Christmas, just the same.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


merry Christmas,you caught me in mid edit.

still learning site sorry so many little buttons and on a spanish keyboard.check my earlier posting.

Originally posted by the_grand_pooh-bah
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

and it's kinda funny,i actually am working on the said charity,I wanted to buy slaves to liberate them and microfinance them to form their own fishing fleets.buy them but release every 6 months and give them stock in the fleet.still a work in progress.just funny how you accidentally touched on it...

That is an admirable pursuit, and I applaud you for it! It is sad, though, that life is considered so cheap that if our governments were to embark upon such initiatives, they'd be slammed by those who resent the money going overseas. Not enough money to do the right thing but always enough to kill foreigners.

My bottom line is that we don't need to pay reparations, and we don't need to continue perpetuating today's ineffectual handouts. Money should be focused, and if appears paternal...well, that's what is going on now, anyway. Time to shed the Great White Father bravo sierra...give a hand up, not a hand out. There will always be those who don't want change...but those that do should be encouraged to learn and grow, and provide leadership and role models for the next generation.

Originally posted by rizla

the Arawak/Taino Indians were: “’Punished’ by having their hands cut off … & left to bleed to death”. He lists other forms of torture & cruelty inflicted upon the Taino Indians including being hanged, roasted on spits, burned alive, children were hacked to pieces & used as dog feed, (the perpetrators) slit a man in two or cut his head off & opened up his bowels, (the offenders) dashed the heads of babes against rocks.

from: www.countercurrents.org...

If you ain't ashamed of that, your soul is dead.

I feel sorry for those people but in no way am I ashamed. I did not commit those crimes nor did any of my friends or family members. Your idea of inherent debt stinks of the Original Sin concept which brought us the religion of guilt.

By your standards the Germans did not start WWII because all the germans from the past are gone, dead.

History is history, people in general are not responsable on an individual level, but one nation is, it still has the same flag, still talks about the fathers of the country in a good way, even if they killed indians and made it okay to enslave blacks. In general the truth is covered up and historical
figures that ruled as kings are seen as saints and heroes, even if everything is far away from the truth. America was built on the slave trade, alot of hard work had to be done, and if it was not for the slaves
America would not be what it is today because the slaves worked the lands and mined the goold mines. America would not be the size it is today if it did not get the indians out of the way.

So past action is the effect of what today is, it's the truth. United States
is what it is today because of what happened in the past. It was built on history, everything gets built on history, so how can you denny the building of United States? It's these actions that made the United States possible in the first place otherwise there would be no United States as you know it.





[edit on 25-12-2009 by pepsi78]

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Hey Johnny, I am sure their were Native Americans and Slaves in Canada.

Do not forget to give your penance.

I think the OP is just a little miffed about the constant talk of reparations our current gov thinks can be used to institute more Tax and Control.

I know I personally feel no guilt for any of my ancestral crimes.

To do this kind of ancestral reparation is lunacy.

White Guilt is the product of Huddled Masses, Yearning to Breath Free[ly] whose granddaddies won the USA Lotto Game, 1898.

They did little or nothing to deserve the enormous material wealth they obtained for the price of a steamer ticket... and so they feel guilt beyond remorse.

Now my ancestors, who came to Massachusetts in 1620, BOUGHT THE DAMNED LAND FAIR AND SQUARE FROM THE LOCAL INDIANS.

The younger posters here ought to research to once-common, now forbidden phrase, "INDIAN GIVER" before they prattle on about injustice.

AMERICAN BY BIRTH AND HERITAGE. WILLING TO FIGHT FOR MY LAND TO KEEP IT. MAY THE BEST MAN WIN.

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by Frith
The rest of the world isn't angry at past misdeeds of the USA. Its current ones like the blatantly offensive war upon Iraq and the terror bombings the USA and its allies conduct upon other nations like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen.

It's not so much the rest of the world as it is Americans hating Americans because of something that happened hundreds of years ago by a few people. Everything in history is savagery and war, almost like today.

I am part Native American, part German that immigrated to this country less than 100 years ago and part English and French heritage dating back to the 1700s.

I guess I am half responsible for the past. The other half was the victim and a bystander.

Race is only an issue if we make it one. We just live in a country that loves to pick at old wounds and loves to feel a sense of self-hatred. Others, like the OP, likes to point out how he or she is not responsible. Why be so defensive?

Race is not an issue. Barrack Obama is the first American President that has an African heritage, but the historical significance ends there. He may look a little different, but he is the same as the bandits we have had in office in the past. Aesthetics is not 1 tenth of a percentage point as important as character. It only matters to the vane.
People that profit off of the racial divide are criminals.

I can say this with the utmost confidence, no one alive today is responsible for our history of systematic slavery , and very few people still alive are responsible for the systematic mistreatment of Native Americans.

If your great granddad murdered two people in cold blood, would you be thrown in jail and put on trial for those murders?

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

Hey Johnny, I am sure their were Native Americans and Slaves in Canada.

Do not forget to give your penance.

Just think...if you had read further in this thread, you wouldn't have had to waste your time on this posting. Merry Christmas, anyway.

if america is an image of a hall even down to the laws executed; then someone has to pay for crimes committed today that reverberate in time.but if i am king and despotism is used within my temple is it lawful for others to execute me based on their contrived notion of what a fair life is.this issue seems equal to my prior allegory of a masonic hall and american justice system as america squandered its wealth by expressing itself.am i to pay for the use of wealth from my property that entitles the execution of another unjustly?i find the issue an easy one for most to overlook as now many feel they are members within a lodge by proxy of birth.yet many do not know the king/master builder and when all is said and done and works are complete will people be as happily ready to accept their fate as they are now ready to accept what they feel is a property of their own.if i as king act in despotism and you feel i need to re-pair with you in a more peaceful way i find no issue in such connotations.if you as a tenant within the properties of my existence find it perfectly ok to execute what image is placed before you as i are you sure you are not acting in ways i have dictated for the purpose of your own destiny?wile these ramblings make sense to few and many ears are looked at as goods to be popped in waves called micro; are you not enriching your own stature or is the complacency of just being inadequate?at times re-pairing with the king is necessary, but is now the time to inspect the queen and make sure she has supplies for the fortifications of lifes whether; for if the queen is slain even in thought one of you who imagined yourself king retain her duties:and of what regarding the transition of new scents within this colony.

if the question is just from one who accepts a position within an estate am i wrong to desire the death of all who assumed an estate in place of the king?

[edit on 26-12-2009 by Ausar]

I am canadian and my answer is this,progress means moving forward and to do that you must travel over the ground you were on the moment before,this includes people,cultures,belief systems and yes things get trampled and broken just like everywhere in nature because progress is natural,trying to make reparations and making special provisions for indiginous cultures is regressive not progressive so therefore it is not natural.SO WHY DO WE ASK FOR REPARATIONS AND WHY ARE THERE INDIAN RESERVES STILL?When you walk through a wild meadow in nature you step on and crush many many living things,flowers,grass,weeds,bugs,ants,and so on and so on,but your stroll through the meadow requires no apology or reparations,nature takes care of that by adjusting to all of the changes you may have inadvertantly caused,and no you dont have to stay out of the meadow.

Progress requires the absorbtion of existing cultures by the numbers game,the higher the number of a particular group,the higher the likelyhood that all of their needs will be met through one means or another.The larger absorbs the smaller,its natural.Its unnatural to try to remedy or apologise or whine about nature,it is only silly religous belief in the existance of a divine creator that makes us crazy enough to expect that basic laws of nature can be "oneupped"by us or anything else and why is there some need aside from the belief in a divine creator to even question the losses these cultures have supposedly suffered,I think these have been contributions to the progress of mankind so I see it as the proper price we all pay thrugh self sacrifice to keep humanity moving forward.No one has lost anything.

Why the hell would you fight to teach your kids cree when you cant even seem to teach them english which is the universal language on this planet,billions of other people are trying to learn english but these nutbars want to teach ancient languages to as many of their kids as they can?what are they trying to do keep themselves in the dark ages so we send them more cheques and support them for yet another generation?

America is only one of thousands of cultures that has had to deal with bleeding hearts that get heard a little to much especially in the media.There was a fight,one guy--us--won,and one guy---them---lost.End of story,whats this reserve and special status crap all about?This isnt even liberal minded thinking it is selfdestructive to exhibit regressive behaviours and trying to make the winner pay for winning is regressive and a little retarded.

No one mentions how many years have been added to the average person of African descents lifespan since slavery was still practiced,why doesnt someone like Opra Winnfree or whatever do a show on this.Its called progress.For the love of god slavery indirectly spread these cultures all over the globe ,this could have taken thousands of years otherwise.Its called progress.No one mentions that for example in Canada the birth rate numbers say the biggest and fastest growing families are Native?These cultures have been given so many advantages that their birthrate is eclipsing that of other cultures in Canada.Those treaties were only meant to give one generation an advantage to integrate,they were never meant to keep people on reserves or to allow entire cultures to claim dependance on our government over and above other Canadians.I dont care if my great grandpa screwed every native in Canada out of their land,those are the breaks and I hope someone got a chance to talk to grandpa before he passed away BECAUSE THE DAY HE DIED SO DID YOUR CHANCE OF RECIEVING AN APOLOGY OR ONE BLOODY RED CENT FROM ME OR MY CHILDREN.

What kind of insane lunatic would somehow try to hold a current GENERATION of people responsible for the sins of those that came before them.The entire idea is retarded.There is no God to even the score and this whole reparation and refusing to accept progress and whining about what happened in the past is a purely religous motivated delusion,a mass delusion at that.No one is going to make everything fair or even and no one is supposed to do that,it isnt natural.We just learn from our mistake and dont make it again,WE DONT SPEND THE REST OF ETERNITY APOLOGISING FOR PROGRESSING BECAUSE IT IS OUR GREATER RIGHT TO PROGRESS THAN IT IS FOR THE WEAKER TO SURVIVE.That is nature and the only thing ALLEGEDLY stronger than nature is God,so why doesnt someone send him a bill for all the slavery and imprisonment that have been inflicted on billions of humans throughout history,because you nutbirds ,these things have been around as long as humans have and if you dont think you are a slave to the dollar in just as bad a way as the black man was a slave to his master you are kidding yourself.One day my coountry will be absorbed by a greater entity than itself,what do you think the future holds ,more weapons to protect our little kingdoms,come on there are already global democracy plans being drawn up,there is no other alternative,Russia was smart when they opted out of communism and freed their people,they saw the future the Americans have tried to run from,a future when little tyrants even ones that are democratic will not be allowed to exist.Canada is on the right track with our cultural mosiac crap,but in the end its all just basic progress.The pissed off indians turned to alcohol in Canada after all of the abuse they recieved and the end result was a higher birthrate than any other demographic,the pissed off negros turned to crack in Ameriica and if it wasnt for the recent latino invasion they would also have the same dominant birthrate,hell maybe they do anyways despite the latinos.What I am saying is that it is all about progress and instead of whining and looking for a pound of flesh in the name of revenge ,just move bloody on already.And if you are looking for a pound of flesh dont forget what happened the first time and lets move forward together so we dont have to relearn old lessons.

Originally posted by one4all
SO WHY DO WE ASK FOR REPARATIONS AND WHY ARE THERE INDIAN RESERVES STILL?

Excuse me for pointing out the obvious, but the reservations belong to the Natives.

Progress requires the absorbtion of existing cultures by the numbers game...I think these have been contributions to the progress of mankind so I see it as the proper price we all pay thrugh self sacrifice to keep humanity moving forward.No one has lost anything.

That's ok if you are of the dominent majority...but even still people carry on about 'the white man's burden'...which is essentially what you are telling us.

Why the hell would you fight to teach your kids cree...

First thing you do to kill a culture is to make the speaking of the language illegal. So why does anybody learn Gaelic these days? Does a lighter complexion make the point any easier to absorb for you?

...trying to make the winner pay for winning is regressive and a little retarded.

Kinda like throwing your tax money at societal problems that are not going to go away unless you spend the money smarter, and more focused?

Those treaties were only meant to give one generation an advantage to integrate,they were never meant to keep people on reserves or to allow entire cultures to claim dependance on our government over and above other Canadians.

If that's what you thought, you must feel just as screwed as the First Nations! Next time, read the fine print!

I dont care if my great grandpa screwed every native in Canada out of their land,those are the breaks and I hope someone got a chance to talk to grandpa before he passed away BECAUSE THE DAY HE DIED SO DID YOUR CHANCE OF RECIEVING AN APOLOGY OR ONE BLOODY RED CENT FROM ME OR MY CHILDREN.

So what do you think your tax money is doing right now? And did you notice Steve apologizing on your behalf? Pay attention!

As to the rest of your rant, I don't believe that Black culture self-identifies as 'negroes' any more and your use of the term kinda helps sum up your perspective. Are you ever gonna be ticked when the mean colour of this continent is a pale brown!

Welcome to a new millennium...let's try to fix the problems that have been dragged here from the last one.

[edit on 26-12-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]