Sacked for offering a prayer

reply to post by kozmo


"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved."Matthew 24:9-13

Up until recent times, most Christians in America could not imagine living in a country where such things would happen in their lifetime. Who would ever imagine a time when Christians would be hated and people would betray their faith for the false prophets? I can't help but think of folks who grew up in the Bible belt or of the Laura Ingalls-type pioneers of the 19th century prairie days. Did they ever come close to imagining what that kind of world would be like? And yet here we are, actually living in such times.

"You will be hated by all nations because of me," Jesus said. It's not just imaginary anymore, because since the House of Representatives passed the so-called "Hate Crimes Bill", it is just a matter of time before Christians are prosecuted for quoting Scripture from the Bible.

This is real, this is now. Jesus Christ knew that this day would come, and He spoke of it when He walked among us. We are living during a time when we will see attacks on Christians.

As we approach the time we celebrate the birth of Christ, let us remember why He came. Christ was the light that entered the world so that men could be set free from the darkness, but men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19 We now live at a time when evil abounds, and it is incumbent upon believers to stand for what is right, regardless of what the ramifications may be. Sharing the gospel means to share the light with those in the dark, and that means we must stand for the truth.

Just as I thought... :shk:

Paddy and Stephanie Lynch, whose 14 year old daughter is seriously ill with leukaemia, said Olive Jones' constant 'preaching' left their daughter deeply distressed.
...
But speaking for the first time today Mr and Mrs Lynch said they had repeatedly asked Mrs Jones to stop discussing Christianity with their daughter - and were left with no option but to report her to the council.
...
It's a sad situation that in today's society our freedom of speech has been suppressed.
Source

This is not a case of "freedom of speech", as so many mistakenly believe. There are no laws involved. This woman was in the HOME of the student. And it's certainly not a case of religious persecution. She has every right to practice her religion. Just not in this particular home.



[edit on 21-12-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

To offer to pray for somebody's wellbeing is an act of caring. Most humans have this compassionate and caring quality. No harm was done by this gesture,yet this teacher lost their job. This world really is # at times. Now this teacher has no job, right on top of christmas,because they cared.
I presume the family that the teacher prayed for don't celebrate christmas,
as it is based on religion, and prayer, which they have an obvious abhorrence to.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Thanks for adding some clarity to this. I wonder how long this teacher has been praying over this girl? The parents statement concerning the "constant preaching" makes me think it has been going on for some time.

This girl could be having a pretty good day not even thinking about her illness. Then at school this teacher has to remind her when the mood strikes. The unwanted attention could embarrass the girl. I see it as a sort of an imposed reality check on a girl who needs to live her life as normally as possible. It's not normal for teachers to publicly pray over all their students. To single her out in this way could send all the wrong messages to a child.

The religious & free speakers need to tread lightly & speak softly where other people's kids are concerned. Sounds like the girl let mom & dad know it upset her. That would have been enough for me too. I don't blame these parents. That woman is a cold insensitive fanatic imposing herself on a time in a little girls life that should be left to her own imaginings guided by her loving parents.

reply to post by Hack28


I get your point that your pissed off because people use generalities when contradicting what your saying, but your using the same ammo you just dont see it.
Do you believe in quantum mechanics? To you believe in theoretical physics? These are areas of science that are also taken on faith as most are unproven un-testable. Both science and religion take various forms of faith.
Can you please make a point with your comments as opposed to childish retoric?


No I do not believe in quantum mechanics I merely observe and form an opinion, unlike a belief my opinions are quite easy to change .

My opinion of quantum mechanics is that it is a theory with some elements being observed and some not but I am not a physicist and like everyone else am at the mercy of the the findings presented by science.

it would appear that in this area that science is not en devouring to present any absolutes , unlike the proponents of praying to jesusyahweh who claim absolutely that it works or can work without any evidence whatsoever.

You may call my rhetoric childish or whatever you wish but the fact remains that there is zero evidence that praying to jesus has any effect that differs from placebo.

I find it extraordinary that someone would claim my rhetoric childish when discussing invisible beings in the sky.

Regardless and not to drift to far off topic this teacher was rightly sacked for attempting to persuade the child of her belief in the invisible beings in the sky.

If the teacher really was sincere that's all she had to do was talk to the jesus voice in her head without uttering a word and let the child and the parent behold the miracle.

I can only assume that the teacher did this anyway being a good xtian and all that so she no doubt would have satisfied her commitment to jesusyahwhe.

Strange though isn't it, how this imaginary men in the sky can't see the girls problem and contact here directly, always an intercessor required when it comes to the gods of the bibles.

reply to post by Hack28

No what is scary is that you dont want kids to believe in anything, you want them to be exposed to the horrors of the world in the crib.

No I certainly don't want my children to have beliefs I would like them to make informed opinions based on best evidence and be prepared for that opinion to change if new evidence presents itself.

When the kids are old or mature enough vote then it would be fair to say they should be smart enough to make informed opinions on religions if they are presented to them.

You seem to have a problem with my child being of sound enough mind to accept or reject Christianity based on what they are able to read in the bibles.


What the hell dude, when my kids are 18 I offer you the opportunity to personally meet with my kids and give them any religious book you like the bibles the koran the vedas, whatever dude.

And I'm sure my kids will do what most sensible people would do if they read them they will accept or reject them based entirely on the contents and not on what someone else thinks that the contents actually is supposed to mean.

Prayer does work! I am not religious in anyway, but I do believe in the power of prayer.

Why do people think that you have to have religion with prayer and prayer with religion.

I believe that religion - especially the Christian or Catholic are based on many lies to promote a certain male cult into power.

American Indians prayed, but did not have religion.

What I am tired of is the self proclaimed religions thinking that it is an invisible person that helps heal people.

It is 'US' that heals people. It is the powers in our minds that help heal people through prayer. Not some invisible person who hates sex and loves wars.

Praying from someone does not always involve religion - but I despise those church goers who impose themselves into my beliefs with falsehoods of some super powerful invisible being who hates people enough to allow us to kill each other.

Example of good parenting:

reply to post by bargoose

To offer to pray for somebody's wellbeing is an act of caring. Most humans have this compassionate and caring quality. No harm was done by this gesture,yet this teacher lost their job. This world really is # at times. Now this teacher has no job, right on top of christmas,because they cared.

If she cared she would have gone home kneeled down by her bed and had a quiet chat with jesusyahwhe in the privacy of her own home.

if there was any truth in her claims that praying to jesus can cure this or that then she could have smiled to herself knowing what jesusyahweh had done.

By trying to get the child involved she ran the awful risk of getting the child hopes up which could be devastating if the child was later to learn that according to many xtians he does not in fact answer prayers "in that way".

He may not answer the prayer at all in such a way as to make her better but may choose to inspire a complete bastard to buy her a pet bunny thus making the girls last days on earth more tolerable and the complete bastard can learn a thing or two as well.

The teacher should have kept her delusions to her self bought a bunch of grapes and a get well card like normal people, she was justly fired from further potentially harming children.

reply to post by Bombeni


Dude that was so funny thanks very much for the levity star for you

reply to post by adifferentbreed


There's a big difference in teaching religions, and teaching one religion as being true. I had religious studies in class, and we learned about all the major world religions. None was taught as being right, they were all taught from the outside, not the inside. It helped me understand history, and the religions involved, without succumbing to the nonsense.

reply to post by andy1033


What? Every single scientific study into the effectiveness of prayer has shown that there is no difference. You might as well stare at the wall than to ask help from god - the wall is just as likely to provide help.

If the parents aren't Christians, which by all accounts they're not, that would be like chanting for the away team instead - and by your own analogy, that is a very bad thing.

Prayer = pointless.

reply to post by Misfit


Prayer is between a person and God. If she wanted to pray, she should have just done it. Asking the parents? Making them have to deal with some religious person, who was there only to teach their kid?

Offering a prayer is offensive to some people who want nothing to do with such old-fashioned rubbish.

reply to post by mamabeth


No, that's rubbish. All that's not allowed is a school sponsoring a religion. Anyone is free to perform any kind of prayer they want to in school, and in any government institution. Read more here.

I personally am disgusted at the way this person has been treated and almost embarrassed to be a citizen of this supposedly tolerant nation of Great Britain. I am not a Christian myself, far from it, but cannot see how in any conceivable way this innocent, well meaned offer could be construed as bullying. She could quite well now struggle to get further work in the area in which she has dedicated most of her working life, for what? Offering what she believed would be a comforting remark? Its pathetic... as an Atheist I do believe people should be free to make up their own mind which religion, if any, to follow, but this was hardly forcing Christianity down their throat was it?

reply to post by deejdave


So a satanist can say 'hail satan' to a Christian, and expect that "well meaned offer" or "comforting remark" to cause offence?

Religion is between the follower and their god. Not with the parents of the sick kid you're teaching. If they wanted that, they'd have taken the kid to a priest. Teachers should teach, not preach. Ooh! Catchy!

reply to post by davesidious

It would be a different story if prayer had actually ever been successful, but every single study performed shows it achieves nothing.

Thats not entirely true:

Dr. Bryd, a cardiologist with San Francisco General Medical Center completed a research study involving 393 patients between August 1982 and May 1983. He divided the group into 192 patients who were prayed for, and 201 who were not prayed for. He reported that among other things, the people who were prayed for were five times less likely to develop pulmonary edema, pneumonia, or other post-surgical complications. They also died five times less often than the patients in the control group.

www.tybro.com...

"There have been a number of studies on intercessory prayer, or prayer offered for the benefit of another person," said Hodge, a leading expert on spirituality and religion. "Some have found positive results for prayer. Others have found no effect. Conducting a meta-analysis takes into account the entire body of empirical research on intercessory prayer. Using this procedure, we find that prayer offered on behalf of another yields positive results."

www.lifesitenews.com...

By day eight the wound sizes of the prayed for subjects were significantly smaller than the non-prayed for subjects. On day sixteen the result was measured again. By then thirteen of the prayed for wounds were completely healed as opposed to none of the non-prayed for wounds.

www.proofgodexists.org...
True, there are many other studies that show it doesnt work either.
Maybe thats what is meant by having faith.
I understand thats a foreign concept nowdays.
Which do we want to do, give the sick some hope and comfort,
or instill doubt, fear and cynicism? Your call.

So far their meticulous work has reconfirmed what prior research has shown: 75% of the studies show that prayer has a positive impact; 17% show it has no impact and about 7% show that prayer actually had a negative impact.

Negative impact?

Yeah, that surprised us,” says Barth. “We were a little naïve about that, but what it boils down to is that sometimes when a person gets sick they blame God; they get angry with God. And as you know, your thoughts project what happens in your life. And so that anger gets expressed and their health is negatively impacted.”
Although the majority of studies so far indicates prayer to be effective, the findings are not all clear cut. The seminal MANTRA (Monitoring and Actualization of Noetic Training) Study in 2001 at Duke University Medical Center study which tracked the effects of prayer on 150 angioplasty patients with acute coronary syndromes, found that those prayed for did considerably better during their hospital stay than patients who were not prayed for. Of all the patients tested, the fewest patient complications were observed in patients assigned to offsite prayer.

www.whatthebleep.com...
Whatthebleep would mere Godless mortals know about prayer anyway?
LOL!

Originally posted by Aggie Man
Thanks for the kind gesture, but I manage just fine without your prayer...just keep it to yourself and all will be fine.

The first part of your statement, I can agree with...You have the Right to say that you don't need someone else's prayers. But there's a line drawn between your Right to Free Expression & taking any action to make someone keep their prayers to themselves.
The distinction is subtle, but it's there. This is what the Lawful Exercise of Rights are all about...You basically have the Right to do anything you want, unless you violate someone else's equal Rights in the process.
There was no problem when the nurse asked if someone else wanted her prayer...There was nothing wrong when the woman refused the offer of prayer...There was nothing wrong when the nurse complied with the woman's refusal. The wrong came when the nurse was punished for exercising her Rights even though the woman's Rights were not violated in any way.

Originally posted by Aggie Man
But why the feeling of necessity to tell folks you are praying for them?

The "point" is all about showing some basic respect for someone else. It would be like someone going down the sidewalk & putting frogs in peoples' pockets without first asking if they would even want a frog. Maybe some people like to get a free frog (Hey! Frog Legs for lunch! Thanks, dude!) while other people don't. At least by asking first, it's showing a little bit of respect for some else's desires (or lack thereof).

Originally posted by moocowman
There is absolutely nothing worse than someone shouting the virtues of the Kirby cleaner having just been recruited as a sales rep.

Just as they have the Right to say it, you have an equal Right to ignore it. You also have the equal Right to ask them (in a civil, non-violent manner) to tone it down a bit. If they continue being loud & obnoxious, then they start violating your Right to Enjoy Peaceful Use of Your Home & then you can take action.
But in the case of the nurse asking first, then being rejected, did the nurse continue? The article doesn't sound like she did. This is when any action taken against the nurse made her a victim of persecution. Also, one thing that hasn't yet been mentioned here is something that does appear in the article:

Although the 79-year-old woman, from Winscombe, Somerset, was not offended, she was "taken aback" by the suggestion and reported the comment to her carer.

There wasn't even any kind of formal complaint & there was no offense taken in the first place. So, in effect, it was the nurse's boss that "persecuted" (suspended) the nurse.

Originally posted by moocowmanIt is even worse when these sort of people come to our homes move all the furniture but have never read the instruction manual for their wonderful gizzmo.

And you have the Right to kick out that salesman if they don't ask your permission first before moving your furniture. Just as you "invited" him/her in for the demonstration, you also can uninvite them at any time; That is your Right. Then you can make the formal complaint to the sales rep's boss that he/she actually laid hands on your private property without your permission. Hopefully, that sales rep would be given corrective lessons from their boss; That's the civilized way to handle the situation. But initiating harmful action against someone who has done you no harm is not civilized, nor is it within anyone's Lawful Rights to do so.

What's really wrong here is the blatant hostility against people who actually show a bit of civility & respect for other people. That's what "persecution" is all about.

Originally posted by Hack28
I am on mammabeths "prayer" list.
It brings her comfort to do a thing like prayer for me, and it comforts me that she finds some comfort in that.
No harm no foul.

This is the whole point of what I've been saying too. No harm done, no foul given, but foulness is all that's given in return? Hostility in the face of kindness? What kind of barbarians are people becoming these days?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
We don't know the answer to these questions. So you can't really say "it sounds like" this or that happened without knowing all of the facts. That's purely your speculation.

I know it's only speculation on my part. The only source of info I had was the 2 linked articles in the OP. The way they were written indicates that the nurse didn't try to press the issue after being rejected. Yes, I know my questions couldn't be answered...That's why I phrased them as questions. That's also why I specifically said that "it didn't sound like it." Are you sure you're reading the same thing that I'm actually writing?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And if the overly-friendly boss who consistently complimented his female employees on their perfume or dress claimed he only had "good intentions"? It doesn't matter what the intentions are. In a professional environment, unwanted, personal behavior is many times unwelcome and should be kept to one's self. Just to be safe.

This particular situation isn't even close to the nurse's, but it does bring up another question: Why is it that, if a man talks dirty to a woman, it's called "sexual harassment," but when a woman talks dirty to a man, it's $5.99/minute?

Originally posted by kozmo
I'm sick and tired of the Jews, the zionists, the liberals and all the other dumbasses that preach "Diversity" and hypocritically oppose it whenever a Christian is involved.

In essence, when someone brings up a point of contention against another, why no one starts to wonder about the "double standards" present in the original argument? Is it possible that some kind of "social double-standard" may have been involved somewhere? So what do we really know about the woman who made the comment to the nurse's boss? From the writing in the article, there's less known about the woman than there was known about the nurse! And what of the nurse's boss: Even less is known about him/her, so why suspend the nurse for something that didn't even amount to a "complaint?"

Originally posted by Bombeni
"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved."Matthew 24:9-13

I would postulate that this is meant to say, "Learn to recognize the practice of double-standards in society & resolve to eliminate them from your own heart. Be true to yourself."

Originally posted by Aggie Man
No, what's scary is filling a child's head with preconceived notions of what to put faith/believe in.

Yeah, that's the job of the parents...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Paddy and Stephanie Lynch, whose 14 year old daughter is seriously ill with leukaemia, said Olive Jones' constant 'preaching' left their daughter deeply distressed.
...
But speaking for the first time today Mr and Mrs Lynch said they had repeatedly asked Mrs Jones to stop discussing Christianity with their daughter - and were left with no option but to report her to the council.
...
It's a sad situation that in today's society our freedom of speech has been suppressed.
Source

This is not a case of "freedom of speech", as so many mistakenly believe. There are no laws involved. This woman was in the HOME of the student. And it's certainly not a case of religious persecution. She has every right to practice her religion. Just not in this particular home.

Oh yes, there are Laws involved, Heretic.

I agree in this case, which still seems to be different from that of the nurse...Even after being asked to stop, Jones kept pushing. In this case, the family was in the Right to seek relief from harassment. Jones was not Lawfully exercising the Right to Free Speech or Free Religion, because when asked to cease & did not, she started infringing the family's Equal Rights to their Free Religion. Any double-standards here are on the teacher's part, in claiming to be a "victim of political correctness" when she's actually the offender.

Jones being in the family's home made not a whit of difference in this situation either...Pushing the religion against the will of the family is all that was needed to classify this as an offense. It would have been the same, even if the child was not sick & the family was out in a public area.
In this case, it is lawfully right to punish the individual person committing the offense, but let's not get carried away & extend that punishment to the religion itself.

In the absence of any further sources of information, I still see this as different from the nurse's situation; I hope others posting in this thread recognize these differences.

Originally posted by bargoose
To offer to pray for somebody's wellbeing is an act of caring. Most humans have this compassionate and caring quality. No harm was done by this gesture,yet this teacher lost their job.

Did you read Benevolent Heretic's link? Harm was done & the teacher violated the family's Rights by not stopping when asked to stop.

------Continued Below-----

------------Concluded From Above---------------

Originally posted by moocowman
And I'm sure my kids will do what most sensible people would do if they read them they will accept or reject them based entirely on the contents and not on what someone else thinks that the contents actually is supposed to mean.

This is the main contention I have with organized religions, of any stripe. The personal ego of someone & to display such a lack of respect as to think that their interpretation of scripture is any more "right" than my own interpretation.

Yep, your kids have to live life the way you do, as we all do...Figuring it out as they go. IMO, it's best to give them the information they need to survive & continue learning on their own & let them figure it out. At best, you can teach them how to learn on their own & hopefully they'll learn that before they leave the nest. It's the Laws of Nature as Set Forth by the Creator. In this context, the "Laws of Nature" may as well be called the "Laws of Physics" because they govern over all of existence anyway...Including us.

Originally posted by ShadoMan
Prayer does work! I am not religious in anyway, but I do believe in the power of prayer.

Why do people think that you have to have religion with prayer and prayer with religion.

In this context, I think you're saying that "prayer" is much the same as using "mind force" or "psychic power," am I correct? If so, then even the disciplined sciences have accumulated some pretty conclusive data that the mind does contain more power than what is obvious on a day-to-day basis; The unlocked potential of the subconscious, and so forth. Am I too far off base here? In this context, I'd have to agree with you, that "prayer" can show results, according to how well a person can tap into that mental potential, using prayer as a focus in concentration.

In the case of that pushy teacher, upsetting & scaring the child so badly may have actually "closed some mental doors" which may have a negative effect for her in healing herself.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

One of the NWO's goals is to wipe out all patriotism & all religion

Sometimes I think that may be best.

Maybe that is for the best. If agreed upon by all people; If done consensually, that is. But the NWO's real goal is to supplant current forms of worship/patriotism with themselves as the object of worship. That's where they're really "in the wrong."

reply to post by davesidious


I don't know what country you are living in. Here in the states, muslims have more religious freedoms than christians.Christian children,in public
schools,are not allowed to pray or read their Bibles on school property.

That's the price of practicing one's faith in demoralized fallen country like the UK. She should be completely unapologetic about it and sue her school district. After all a Muslim is compelled by his religion to convert by force. The UK should start getting used to the new techniques, whilst bashing christians for merely quietly praying for the suffering.

The UK has already chosen her future.