Communism, there is no worse destiny for mankind.

Communism and socialism is actually one of the most effective and fair ways to run a country the problem it is based on the idea of everyone working to for everyone's benefit people are far too greedy for such actions that is why all the people who love capitalism are the rich and powerful those who have everything and believe hell to the rest who don't.

Originally posted by cinethrope
Communism and socialism is actually one of the most effective and fair ways to run a country the problem it is based on the idea of everyone working to for everyone's benefit people are far too greedy for such actions that is why all the people who love capitalism are the rich and powerful those who have everything and believe hell to the rest who don't.

I don't know what your progressive a** is smoking but you might want to lay off it for awhile and get your head on straight. I will point out a couple of ways it does not work so you can google it and learn something before spouting off.

It takes away your will to work hard

It is actually an oligarchy you might want to look that one up

The strong support the weak even if they don't want to I believe in free choice charity is a good thing and forced charity is not

Food shortages just ask the Russians

Free speech is suppressed but I have a feeling you are alright with that even though you would probably whine if it was taken from you

If it does not matter if you win or loose or if you have a great idea industries will eventually fail time will prove this one out even in china mark my words the cracks are already showing

I just listed a few things for you but I truly believe the mindset you have is almost sad because the truth and the facts get lost in the whole bleeding heart thing. Is it good to help and share you bet it is but when you force it the ice will break no matter how softly you step and please if you take nothing away form this please look up the word OLIGARCHY because that is what it truly is


[edit on 21-12-2009 by Subjective Truth]

[edit on 21-12-2009 by Subjective Truth]

Originally posted by links234

I love having options in the supermarket.

Then you hate communism. The ONLY people with OPTIONS are people that live in Capitalistic countries.

Originally posted by cinethrope
all the people who love capitalism are the rich and powerful those who have everything and believe hell to the rest who don't.

You should try living under the heel of communism for a few years, then perhaps you would appreciate Capitalism, the only equalizer for the common man.

Wow. I've never seen so many people defending communism on ATS before. lol But let's get serious.

Communism in small communal enclaves is absolutely fine. I wouldn't even mind living in a community like that. In fact, I'd probably love everyone working and sharing together.

But in a country where you have hundreds of millions or even a billion citizens like China and the system is run by a detached, non personal government where 'the people' are not directly involved in an intimate setting, communism is NOT going to work.

Methinks some are defending communism because it's unknown, hip, non Western, and it makes them feel like rebels but in reality, they don't know what they're talking about.

Communist Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea (it's actually a single party communist country), etc. What looks good in theory is simply not working out in practice. It's pure hell. Single party systems are always hell.

It's not a happy magical land where everyone works together and owns everything together the way communism is presented. It's pretty much horrid governments treating the people like vermin. The state owns it, you get your assignments.

[edit on 12/21/2009 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by links234

I love having options in the supermarket.

Then you hate communism. The ONLY people with OPTIONS are people that live in Capitalistic countries.

No, it's not a 'love or hate' idea. I love my choices but I don't hate EVERYthing about communism. The Chinese have options too in their supermarkets...they succeeded in applying certain economic traits where Russia failed. Why do you think they're so rich and Russia is so poor?

Perestroika and Deng Xiaoping's economic reforms have similar origins but very different effects on their respective countries' economies. Both efforts occurred in large communist countries attempting to modernize their economies, but while China's GDP has grown consistently since the late 1980s (albeit from a much lower level), national GDP in the USSR and in many of its successor states fell precipitously throughout the 1990s.
Gorbachev's reforms were largely a top-down attempt at reform, and maintained many of the macroeconomic aspects of the command economy (including price controls, inconvertibility of the ruble, exclusion of private property ownership, and the government monopoly over most means of production). Reform was largely focused on industry and on cooperatives, and a limited role was given to the development of foreign investment and international trade. Factory managers were expected to meet state demands for goods, but to find their own funding. Perestroika reforms went far enough to create new bottlenecks in the Soviet economy, but arguably did not go far enough to effectively streamline it.
Chinese economic reform was, by contrast, a bottom-up attempt at reform, focusing on light industry and agriculture (namely allowing peasants to sell produce grown on private holdings at market prices). Economic reforms were fostered through the development of "Special Economic Zones", designed for export and to attract foreign investment, municipally-managed Township and Village Enterprises and a "dual pricing" system leading to the steady phasing out of state-dictated prices. Greater latitude was given to managers of state-owned factories, while capital was made available to them through a reformed banking system and through fiscal policies (in contrast to the fiscal anarchy and fall in revenue experienced by the Soviet government during perestroika). Another fundamental difference is that where perestroika was accompanied by greater political freedoms under Gorbachev's glasnost policies, Chinese economic reform has been accompanied by continued, albeit relaxed, authoritarian rule and a suppression of political dissidents, most notably at Tiananmen Square.

Source

Originally posted by links234

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by links234

I love having options in the supermarket.

Then you hate communism. The ONLY people with OPTIONS are people that live in Capitalistic countries.

No, it's not a 'love or hate' idea. I love my choices but I don't hate EVERYthing about communism. The Chinese have options too in their supermarkets...they succeeded in applying certain economic traits where Russia failed. Why do you think they're so rich and Russia is so poor?

The Chinese were rotting on the vine of poverty until they embraced Capitalism a few years ago. Millions of Chinese people now enjoy prosperity and a piece of the good life because of Capitalism.

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by links234

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by links234

I love having options in the supermarket.

Then you hate communism. The ONLY people with OPTIONS are people that live in Capitalistic countries.

No, it's not a 'love or hate' idea. I love my choices but I don't hate EVERYthing about communism. The Chinese have options too in their supermarkets...they succeeded in applying certain economic traits where Russia failed. Why do you think they're so rich and Russia is so poor?

The Chinese were rotting on the vine of poverty until they embraced Capitalism a few years ago. Millions of Chinese people now enjoy prosperity and a piece of the good life because of Capitalism.

Only millions? What about the other billions? That is where Capitalism fails.

I am reading the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx, and I'll tell you what I think about Communism by the end of it. It's only about 80 pages longs.

Originally posted by Phlynx

Only millions? What about the other billions? That is where Capitalism fails.

China is a Communist country and is dabbling in Capitalism and has “no” democracy. That's where it fails. Capitalism without democracy can only do so much, like socialism.

I am reading the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx, and I'll tell you what I think about Communism by the end of it. It's only about 80 pages longs.

That should rot the brain cells. What may sound good on paper has sent billions of people that tried it into the hell of pure poverty for the last hundred years.

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by Phlynx

Only millions? What about the other billions? That is where Capitalism fails.

China is a Communist country and is dabbling in Capitalism and has “no” democracy. That's where it fails. Capitalism without democracy can only do so much, like socialism.

I am reading the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx, and I'll tell you what I think about Communism by the end of it. It's only about 80 pages longs.

That should rot the brain cells.

What may sound good on paper has sent billions of people that tried it into the hell of pure poverty for the last hundred years.

I'm not going to argue with someone who hates a system so much, but knows so little about it, that they haven't read an 80 page book about the system they call evil. If you want to start an argument, actually learn the facts about an ideology, like I am. Not reading it rots more brain cells than actually reading it.

Originally posted by Phlynx
I'm not going to argue with someone who hates a system so much, but knows so little about it, that they haven't read an 80 page book about the system they call evil. If you want to start an argument, actually learn the facts about an ideology, like I am. Not reading it rots more brain cells than actually reading it.

I'll keep my Capitalism and enjoy my freedom, you go ahead and get drunk with communistic and Bolshevistic fairly tails. Karl Marx has created more hell on this planet than a dozen full time Satans could ever do. I guess there is room for more hell.

[edit on 22-12-2009 by gdeed]

reply to post by gdeed


good god man have you ever thought about what a united humanity could do capitalism is not going to unite us only a communist based society that uses all rescourses to advance the entire planet and not to create wealth for a few lucky ones can. think about free education,health care, housing, and with the technology now days no man need to work so hard for food for it will be abundant all could be provided for and none shall want this is the communist dream you are looking at stalinism, facism and despotism you have unfortunatly been blinded by your american capitalist propaganda and i feel sorry for you and people like you who have no vision mark my words this state of world affairs will not last for ever and we shall have our revolution cheers from australia

reply to post by romanis


Honest question:

Can you please give me an example of a successful communist state? A country with tens of millions or hundreds of millions of citizens that did NOT come down to...

wealth for a few lucky ones

Every large example of communism I have seen has resulted in massive death (up in the tens of millions), starvation, oppression, property seizure, loss of freedom, and wealth hoarding for the elite.

And, no. I'm not eating up capitalist propaganda and can acknowledge the capitalist system has it's problems. Especially when it drifts towards corporatism. However, it's amazing to me that once these dreadful communist countries where people are standing in bread lines begin to introduce free market principles, their economy begins to come out of the dark ages.

Originally posted by romanis
reply to post by gdeed

 

good god man have you ever thought about what a united humanity could do capitalism is not going to unite us only a communist based society that uses all rescourses to advance the entire planet and not to create wealth for a few lucky ones can. think about free education,health care, housing, and with the technology now days no man need to work so hard for food for it will be abundant all could be provided for and none shall want this is the communist dream you are looking at stalinism, facism and despotism you have unfortunatly been blinded by your american capitalist propaganda and i feel sorry for you and people like you who have no vision mark my words this state of world affairs will not last for ever and we shall have our revolution cheers from australia

Good luck with creating your utopia hellhole. But I guarantee you will need to kill millions of freedom loving people to do it. Stalin Killed 20 million, Castro killed a few million, Pol Pot kill off a whole race of people, Kim song is still killing people in N. Korea and so is China. All Communist dictators need their daily bloodbath to keep their utopia going.

Folks can have their Communism. I just want to be where the liberty is.

If it's all Communism will I be free to not participate? Free to live in a "capitalist" community if I so choose?

In the US, for example, (though a bad one because the market isnt free and liberty is frowned upon but I digress) you can pretty much live within a Communist community without any extra penalties or fear of being tossed in jail. Your only real problem would be taxes. Taxes I dont think you should be paying but that's another thread.

I'm pretty much done with being forced into things and out of places. Be Communist all you want as long as I have my liberty.

If the answer is "no, you will not be free to do that" or a facetious "if you dont like it you can move" then you can expect pretty thorough resistance on my part. Bullet in the head thorough.

Originally posted by links234
I think we're mixing capitalism as an economic definition and democracy. Why?

Communism covers a wide range of social, political and economic aspects whereas capitalism really only covers economics.

America is a democratic republic with a capitalist economy, right? If so, then arguing that capitalism is better than communism is only arguing the economies of the two systems.

A lot of you, including the OP, are arguing that that a democracy is better than a totalitarian regime. Everyone will agree with you on that. What I don't agree with you on is you lumping communist economic ideals with communist social ideals.

I love having options in the supermarket. I hate knowing the top 5% of earners in the country make more than the lower 95% combined! I like affordable products. I don't like human cost at which they're produced.

Think about which argument you're having before you have it.

okay fine, what about if we put Socialism as opposed to the plutocracy America operates on. I by no means, i repeat, advocate totalitarianism & a one party state, its not about sum 1984 fing, but i get the impression that the only way you get ANYWHERE influencial in politics in the US is:
a) if you have the money
or
b) if you have contacts with people who do & are therefore influential

pure elitism, & theres endless examples to back that point up
and capitalism isnt totally irrelevent to this since it unfairly concentrates wealth and resources into the hands of gluttons which make up a tiny proportion of the population. its based on exploitation, whereas in a socialist democracy, there would be equal access of resources for everyone, and compensation based on the amount of work and service you provide.

& since people are talking about capitalism, im not much of an economist but im wondering whether its really as effective as people make it out to be, the obvious examples you can see coming being the credit crunch and the crash back in october 1929.
apparently we've seen one of the "most prosperous decades in history" during the past 10 years, and all of that to watch it crumble to the ground.
same with the 1920s, people were brainwashed into this consumer mentality, everyone has a car, why dont we buy one too, even though we dont have the money to afford it ourselves, dont worry, just use credits! etc etc. all of this ensued by the Great Depression.
so is this going to be an ongoing cycle?
and if it is, is it really that great?

(nb. deliberately ommitting theories behind global elitism having an invisible hand within the economy for the sake of avoiding sidetracking)

Originally posted by harlinskee

pure elitism, & theres endless examples to back that point up
and capitalism isnt totally irrelevent to this since it unfairly concentrates wealth and resources into the hands of gluttons which make up a tiny proportion of the population.

If you ever end up living under the foot of communism, you will see that the leaders are “all” elitist and the wealth and resources are for them "only".

its based on exploitation, whereas in a socialist democracy, there would be equal access of resources for everyone, and compensation based on the amount of work and service you provide.

Communism is exploitation and resources are not for the common people only for the leaders. Try communism some time, there are many communist countries all over the place. Most of them are Third World hellholes.

im sorry but you're not furthering the debate here, you're just repeating the same things over and over again & note that i wasnt referring to communism as such but socialism, which has a more moderate stance, albeit broader approach, but still, communism is a more extreme branch of it
& lol at calling China "communist" nowadays, r u joking?

and of course people are going to support you against dictatorship, no one wants that, as several people have mentioned, but fact remains that i dont think a plutocracy is any better.
& i believe that capitalism is no better, most people are slaves to 9-5 job and the people who benefit from it the most are the ones who are higher up in the echelon, its a corrupt hierarchy, i want equality & i want justice & freedom

nb.
ironically enough, countries like china & the USSR APPLIED CAPITALISM in their commercial dealings wiv 3rd world countries

[edit on 27/11/09 by harlinskee]

I posted earlier that I enjoy choices in the supermarket...but more and more capitalistic monopolies are limiting my choices by offering varieties of my products, examples:

-Colgate-Palmolive and Procter & Gamble split more than 80 percent of the U.S. market for toothpaste

-Almost every beer is manufactured or distributed by either Anheuser-Busch InBev or MillerCoors

-Campbell’s controls more than 70 percent of the shelf space devoted to canned soups

-Frito-Lay in recent years has captured half the business of selling salty corn chips and potato chips

-Nine of the top ten brands of bottled tap water in the United States are sold by PepsiCo, Coca-Cola, or Nestlé

-Wal-Mart delivers at least 30 percent and sometimes more than 50 percent of the entire U.S. consumption of products ranging from soaps and detergents to compact discs and pet food

That's ok though, right? So long as they offer a 'better' product and can produce it cheaper and more efficiently they should be allowed to succeed in our free market.

yeah i was gonna say:
the food industry (like many many others) is now controlled by just a handful of major corporations.
you don't really have choice, its a good point
the way people eat has changed more in the past 50 years than it has in the past 5000 or so, and why? because today, most of the food industry is controlled by a handful of major companies & corporations, all interested in mass production, meaning more money & ironically, although we perceive that our food in general has become more sanitised, what with herbicides & that, its actually not. theyre genetically modified, and since cows etc are brought up on mass production sites & live leg deep in their own maure all day & are all packed together, illnesses & diseases are even more easily spread. so the result is that everyone most probably has particles of manure in their food & risk getting sick from e-coli. it isnt just found in meat either, its found in stuff like spinach, apple juice etc & you know why? because of the way not just meat, but ALL of our food is processed nowadays.
the naive masses jus put trust in the government to protect them, when their sorry asses arent even provided with safe food or water. # knows what we put in our bodies nowadays, we're at the mercy of those handful of major corporations that control the food industry along with many others.
this is the result of capitalism where profit is the primordial motive. its not the ensured safety of what people eat thats important, its how much money they make, which is why they get chickens to get fatter i dont know how many times faster than usual so they cant even walk. it means more meat, it means more money.

i think this may be of interest:
www.youtube.com...

edit:
oh funnily enough its been taken off during the past few days, but i found it in full

food inc

[edit on 27/11/09 by harlinskee]