Hitler was NOT an occultist

reply to post by Chainmaker


So, you're saying you don't judge by appearance?

That is all I have seen you do thus far!!!!

If you truly wish to understand righteous judgement, then here is a good page.

www.oldpaths.com...

on the "occult":

And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. (Isaiah 45:3)

reply to post by Chainmaker

This means that we may not judge on the basis of insufficient, superficial information. Outward appearance is often deceptive.

Yet, this is exactly what you do. You claim to be a former occultist, which I doubt, but nonetheless, you take biased literature and pilfer it around as evidence for your right to judge. Is this not exactly what it is saying not to do?

The bible is pretty explicit that you are not to judge period!!

2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Romans 2:1-3

I suggest you familiarize yourself, chain, with your own religion before you criticize the beliefs of others, or you're going to continue to get your proverbial intellectual butt handed to you.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
reply to post by Chainmaker

 

This means that we may not judge on the basis of insufficient, superficial information. Outward appearance is often deceptive.

Yet, this is exactly what you do. You claim to be a former occultist, which I doubt, but nonetheless, you take biased literature and pilfer it around as evidence for your right to judge. Is this not exactly what it is saying not to do?

I am not making anything up about my former occult involvement.

I am not approaching this debate with insufficient or superficial information about the topics being discussed.

That page contains numerous verses pertaining to the subject of judgement, and a very coherent argument is formed about what is righteous judgement.

Here is another page that deals with the same subject. You will find many of the same verses and a very similar conclusion.

www.biblebelievers.com...

Jesus was biased. The Bible is biased. Jesus held a certain view of spiritual matters. I agree with his view. I judge other views based on his view. That is righteous judgement.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
The bible is pretty explicit that you are not to judge period!!

2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Romans 2:1-3

I suggest you familiarize yourself, chain, with your own religion before you criticize the beliefs of others, or you're going to continue to get your proverbial intellectual butt handed to you.

That verse is very clearly saying that you shouldn't judge someone for doing something that you do yourself. It is saying not to be a hypocrite.

I am no longer involved in the occult. I am not being hypocritical by telling people it is bad and warning them against it. You could use that verse against me if I was still involved in the occult, yet here judging it as evil. That is not the case. And if I am lying, and I am still involved in the occult, then that verse says I am not going to escape the judgement of God for that.

"The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment." (Psa. 37:30)

"Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not."
(Malachi 3:18)

"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." (I Corinthians 2:15)

That means the truly spiritual person should be judging good from evil in all things, and isn't judged by others because he isn't being a hypocrite.

Originally posted by queenannie38
on the "occult":

And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. (Isaiah 45:3)

The whole passage:

“Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me” Isaiah 45:1-4

It is a prophecy referring to Cyrus of Persia, who God used to free the Jews from captivity and send them back to Israel to rebuild the Temple. It could mean that God would deliver to Cyrus the hidden physical treasures of Babylon, and Babylon surely did have quite a collection of hidden treasures collected from the nations they conquered.

But here is an interesting view I just ran across, in which it actually does mean that Cyrus would be granted dark occult knowledge. In this view Cyrus is actually a type of the Antichrist.

www.cuttingedge.org...

Regardless, the occult is still BAD BAD BAD

[edit on 28-12-2009 by Chainmaker]

reply to post by Chainmaker


the GOD of Israel is a GOD who hides himself.
it says that in the bible, perhaps Isaiah or Jeremiah
so is GOD bad bad bad?

Jesus was NOT biased.
Jesus loved his enemies.
Jesus loved his murderers.
Jesus told GOD: Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.
Jesus was not judgmental.

you're not the only person who loves GOD and Jesus or that knows GOD and Jesus.

the rest of us here know them and love them, too
and GOD loves us all

EVEN HITLER
EVEN JUDAS
EVEN CROWLEY
EVEN JOHN DEE
ALL THE OCCULT (whatever the hell that word means in your mind....)
ALL THE HIDDEN SERVANTS

we are NOT here to say this or that is BAD BAD BAD or even GOOD GOOD GOOD
we are here to discuss whether or not Hitler was into the hidden knowledge and craft of the world

let's get back on track, shall we?

Originally posted by Chainmaker
Jesus controls my mind now, not evil men.

Hrm.

Then why do you go on to equate enlightenment with the duality of God a few sentences later?

Where? You're falling for a paradox that doesn't truely exist. Enlightenment is dumping the ego, hence dumping forgetful involvement in duality and remembering from whence you came. It changes your perceptions.

Not at all, he proclaimed himself the Jewish Messiah, the Son of God, equal to the Father, and said that people could be saved only through his sacrifice, through belief in him as the only way to salvation, nothing about self-enlightenment or many paths.

He also said he the father was still greater. He opened the portal for everyone by example. Follow his ways, believe in his ways. Don't be an idolater. His essential ways aren't unique to him however, thus by those ways, you in effect do follow.

You either agree or disagree with Jesus claim

Again, I find that I do agree for all intents and purposes.

his exclusionary and divisive claim to be the One and Only way to salvation is consistent with the claim of YHWH throughout the Old Testament to be the One and Only God who alone would judge and who could save people.

I guess if you didn't have him around at that time and place, there wasn't another way to get in on it.

I take Jesus at his word, I don't need to try to twist his words to get around his divisive and exclusionary and intolerant claim.

Oddly enough I might as well. I know he's trying to help people without damaging them. Still, it's clearly a tricky ordeal as is being played out here and now. Was he not warned in effect about his ways being twisted into tools of evil?

If I'm truely screwing up, and it is made clear at some point, I certainly don't fear that I'll be castigated by Jesus or God. If it is absolutely, unequivocally the only way, I am confident I will be shown that through revelation, not dogma. So far though, he's revealed that the options are open for me. I keep calling for input on the matter and the message is basically: unity, not division. Know it by its fruits.

Inicidentally, you're helping to increase my knowledge and clarifying its meaning by even having this conversation with me. More is revealed by the minute. Are you committing a trespass by playing that role?

God is Spirit, he does not have a gender, but he presents himself as masculine, as the Dominant Leader. We his followers are his Bride.

I suppose "He" has to be both and neither at the same time or unification isn't complete.

But, you're his bride, or I should say, as it is supposed to be, you are polarized receptively. Jesus is the father and yet the father is still greater. Yeah, no hay un problema. Though if we're his children and his bride... haha, yeah, I see the message anyway. I'm not declaring myself God, the idea is to open up to realization that you are not separate from God and he dwells within. We simply forgot that, that is our fall, and our task is to remember.

There is a Tree of Life, and a Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and I choose to stop eating from the dualist Tree of Knowledge, and be humble and polarize myself toward the Light, so that I can get to eating from the Tree of Life.

They're both pretty tasty. Hehe. Clearly there are exceptions and he does want some to have knowledge. Personally, I've little interest in the power aspect, rituals or calling upon entities. Those things do not feel right personally or necessary. The source (God) is the way but you're "polarizing" yourself towards unity, or rather becoming receptive, not playing good vs. evil.

Of course in that, I do not condone atrocity as "ok". Honestly, maybe I don't even have the knowledge of good and evil because sometimes it isn't clear. What on its face appears evil could be good and what at first appears good could be evil. I see interactions-- cause and effect. I know I cannot see all and cannot definitively classify all happenings and such. Using power to alter too many events based upon my usually limited awareness may not serve good at all even if it seems so. So, the "knowledge of good vs. evil" also suggests that in fact that it is the illusion is that you actually "know" good and evil. Actually, I hadn't thought about it quite this way before even though I have questioned what it "seems". Thank you for assisting.

Evil is Destruction.

My best guess in a general sense, it's actually form and change or more generally polarity, which is of manifest reality.

I don't want that knowledge anymore, God can have it, he's the only one that can keep it locked up. Everyone who just has to have the Knowledge of Evil will get their Destruction. If God chose to be Perfect Evil, then everything would cease to exist.

You think you require ignorance to not be evil? If you're ignorant, you do evil without understanding what you're doing; you might even do good without having any idea. In my case he didn't seem to want to keep it locked up. I didn't really ask for it specifically but I don't mind having it revealed. It's just knowledge.

This all must seem a bit off off topic but the understanding of what occult is has to be clearer before lumping it all in with Hitler, left-hand paths, darkness, etc. If you played that side and got burned, I can understand your fear. I did some things without ever having been exposed to teachings (just seemed to do it naturally, but selfishly) and it burned me. Getting more knowledge and increased awareness helped get life back on a better path.



@queenannie38: Yes, back on track! Things needed clearing up though!

It is told that Buddha, going out to look on life, was greatly daunted by death. "They all eat one another!" he cried, and called it evil. This process I examined, changed the verb, said, "They all feed one another," and called it good.
* Charlotte Perkins Gilman

No man chooses evil because it is evil; he only mistakes it for happiness, the good he seeks.

* Mary Wollstonecraft

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you.

FRIEDRICH NIETZSCHE, Beyond Good and Evil


I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply. In almost everything I've written there is a thread of this: a man's seemingly palpable need to dislike someone other than himself.

ROD SERLING

reply to post by Chainmaker


Well, you completely misunderstood me....

I was referring to link that you provided about the occult earlier in the thread, not the ones you provided on judgment. The ones you provided on the occult is based upon very superficial and spurious accusations. So, even if you assume that what the links on judgment are true, you are still in violation of it.

Originally posted by queenannie38
reply to post by Chainmaker

 

the GOD of Israel is a GOD who hides himself.
it says that in the bible, perhaps Isaiah or Jeremiah
so is GOD bad bad bad?

Jesus was NOT biased.
Jesus loved his enemies.
Jesus loved his murderers.
Jesus told GOD: Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.
Jesus was not judgmental.

you're not the only person who loves GOD and Jesus or that knows GOD and Jesus.

the rest of us here know them and love them, too
and GOD loves us all

EVEN HITLER
EVEN JUDAS
EVEN CROWLEY
EVEN JOHN DEE
ALL THE OCCULT (whatever the hell that word means in your mind....)
ALL THE HIDDEN SERVANTS

we are NOT here to say this or that is BAD BAD BAD or even GOOD GOOD GOOD
we are here to discuss whether or not Hitler was into the hidden knowledge and craft of the world

let's get back on track, shall we?

God loves us all, but he hates when his creations choose Evil. Hitler, Crowley, Iscariot, and Dee unless they made some kind of last minute repentance, will reap the just reward of Destruction(Evil) for practicing Evil(Destruction), as will all of us who do not repent. That is what Jesus said.

Jesus had strong words to say against outwardly righteous religious hypocrites, and knowing deliberate practitioners of Evil, he was very biased against them. He had much more sympathy for those who were doing Evil out of ignorance.

We already have agreed that Hitler was involved in the occult, its only SpeakerofTruth who is denying that fact. And naturally the question arises: Why would SpeakerofTruth be so intent on denying Hitler's involvement in the occult? I have already given my answer to that question.

I believe the issue of whether or not the occult is evil pertains quite well to the issue of whether or not Hitler was into the occult. Most people will agree that Hitler was evil, most people here agree that Hitler was into the occult, so the logical flow of the discussion leads to the question: What is the significance of the fact that the Nazis had an affinity for the occult and pagan religion? I answered that question too.

Anyone who reads this thread, regardless of whether they heed my warnings, regardless of whether they agree with my views, will gain understanding from opposing viewpoints.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Where? You're falling for a paradox that doesn't truely exist. Enlightenment is dumping the ego, hence dumping forgetful involvement in duality and remembering from whence you came. It changes your perceptions.

Dumping the ego is being humble and bowing to God and doing what he wants us to do which is follow his law and polarize ourselves toward the light.

He also said he the father was still greater. He opened the portal for everyone by example. Follow his ways, believe in his ways. Don't be an idolater. His essential ways aren't unique to him however, thus by those ways, you in effect do follow.

He said to believe in him as the Son of God who sacrificed himself for us, and that we are saved by grace not works. He did not say here is how you can enlighten yourself and save yourself. His essential way IS unique to him, he was the only man who never committed any evil, and we are to try our best to be like him, completely shunning evil. "Rising above" the idea of evil is not shunning evil.

Oddly enough I might as well. I know he's trying to help people without damaging them. Still, it's clearly a tricky ordeal as is being played out here and now. Was he not warned in effect about his ways being twisted into tools of evil?

Much evil has been done in the name of Christ, that does not mean that his way was corrupted, it means that people did evil instead of his way, and often did the kind of evil that he hated the most, the hypocritical kind, the kind that masquerades as righteousness. "The devil presents himself as an angel of light."

If I'm truely screwing up, and it is made clear at some point, I certainly don't fear that I'll be castigated by Jesus or God. If it is absolutely, unequivocally the only way, I am confident I will be shown that through revelation, not dogma. So far though, he's revealed that the options are open for me. I keep calling for input on the matter and the message is basically: unity, not division. Know it by its fruits.

Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.
From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. Luke 12:49-52

Inicidentally, you're helping to increase my knowledge and clarifying its meaning by even having this conversation with me. More is revealed by the minute. Are you committing a trespass by playing that role?

I am speaking the true doctrine of Christ to you, you have the free will to accept or deny it.

But, you're his bride, or I should say, as it is supposed to be, you are polarized receptively.

I like that. That's a great way of putting it.

I'm not declaring myself God

good, that's step one of "dualist enlightenment illumination Luciferian doctrine" deprogramming

the idea is to open up to realization that you are not separate from God and he dwells within. We simply forgot that, that is our fall, and our task is to remember.

We are separate from him right now, he can only dwell within those who become polarized receptively toward him.

They're both pretty tasty. Hehe. Clearly there are exceptions and he does want some to have knowledge. Personally, I've little interest in the power aspect, rituals or calling upon entities. Those things do not feel right personally or necessary. The source (God) is the way but you're "polarizing" yourself towards unity, or rather becoming receptive, not playing good vs. evil.

I am very glad you aren't calling on entities. Please, please, please don't ever do it. There can be no unity with evil, we must allow God to polarize us completely against evil, toward unity with Pure Good.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp

Of course in that, I do not condone atrocity as "ok". Honestly, maybe I don't even have the knowledge of good and evil because sometimes it isn't clear. What on its face appears evil could be good and what at first appears good could be evil. I see interactions-- cause and effect. I know I cannot see all and cannot definitively classify all happenings and such. Using power to alter too many events based upon my usually limited awareness may not serve good at all even if it seems so. So, the "knowledge of good vs. evil" also suggests that in fact that it is the illusion is that you actually "know" good and evil. Actually, I hadn't thought about it quite this way before even though I have questioned what it "seems". Thank you for assisting.

Evil exists. Morality is not relative.

The Knowledge of Good and Evil is the Experience of Good and Evil in dualist natural reality. We have our conscience that alerts us to wrongdoing, but the knowledge to righteously judge Good from Evil is given by God through the revelation of his prophets.

You think you require ignorance to not be evil? If you're ignorant, you do evil without understanding what you're doing; you might even do good without having any idea. In my case he didn't seem to want to keep it locked up. I didn't really ask for it specifically but I don't mind having it revealed. It's just knowledge.

To eliminate evil completely, the End of Duality must come, the Final Polarization, and those who chose the light will be returned to the Spiritual Eden, and we will no longer have the Knowledge of Good and Evil. With no more knowledge or experience of Evil(Destruction), we will eat from the Tree of Life instead, and have Everlasting Life.

This all must seem a bit off off topic but the understanding of what occult is has to be clearer before lumping it all in with Hitler, left-hand paths, darkness, etc. If you played that side and got burned, I can understand your fear. I did some things without ever having been exposed to teachings (just seemed to do it naturally, but selfishly) and it burned me. Getting more knowledge and increased awareness helped get life back on a better path.

I have told you what I believe to be the truth about the occult and spirituality, and I hope that you will heed my warning, and I pray that God will bring you to his spirituality of Pure Light.

reply to post by Chainmaker


no, i don't see Hitler as being involved in what is considered "occult."

Himmler, yes.
Hitler, no.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
reply to post by Chainmaker

 

Well, you completely misunderstood me....

I was referring to link that you provided about the occult earlier in the thread, not the ones you provided on judgment. The ones you provided on the occult is based upon very superficial and spurious accusations. So, even if you assume that what the links on judgment are true, you are still in violation of it.

I suppose I did misunderstand which article you were referring to.

Of course the link I provided about the occult history of the Nazis was biased. The evidence when analyzed demands an interpretation, and any interpretation is inherently biased. I do not believe that the accusations within that article are superficial or spurious, so I believe that the article is correctly biased, and that it is passing righteous judgement on the occultic methods and goals of Hitler and the Nazis.

Originally posted by Chainmaker

God loves us all, but he hates when his creations choose Evil.

That is a totally illogical and insane statement.
A God of love cannot hate... period!
God is a god of compassion, understanding, forgiveness, peace, happiness and joy.
It seems Chainmaker you have been listening to the Pharisees of your Religion far too long.
Jesus never talked about hating anyone. He always talked about forgiveness and compassion for everyone despite there Religion or their appearances.


Matthew 5 KJV
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by Epsillion70]

Originally posted by Epsillion70

A God of love cannot hate... period!

Oh, but don't you know? God is completely uncomprehensible unless you are a person like Chain and "see the full picture." Then you understand how a God of love can be wrathful, angry, and the whole gamut of other HUMAN charateristics. Didn't you know that?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by Epsillion70

A God of love cannot hate... period!

Oh, but don't you know? God is completely uncomprehensible unless you are a person like Chain and "see the full picture." Then you understand how a God of love can be wrathful, angry, and the whole gamut of other HUMAN charateristics.

Didn't you know that?

AH yes the wonders of the Theological Anthropomorphic thinkers like Chain, does make one wonder why is it that there is so much confusion in the world.
Reminds me of the story of the Group of Blind Men and an Elephant