Jerusalem Temple VS Messiah

reply to post by justamomma
I hereby retract my statement that David made himself a false prophet. The only evidence was the statement found in I Chronicles. I suspect the editor of that book to be unreliable. I think that's why it's put in the "writings". It was wrong for me to pass judgment based on one unreliable witness. I'm sorry.

Are you of the Jewish mentality or have you studied (via application to your own life) the Laws that were given to us?

Thank you for joining this thread. I am lacking in understanding of Jewish mentality. I hope you can help.

If not, then do not presume to think that you can understand our writings. You have made judgments here that are not based on knowledge ... and the judgments are incorrect.

I am a pagan, actually, in that my beliefs are "home grown in the country" rather than taught in the University or religious institutions. Also, with a name Pagan, any may feel free to despise me and my beliefs. I have no high title demanding respect.

Again, I do lack knowledge, and admit my judgments are flawed at times.



[edit on 16-12-2009 by pthena]

Temporal or Eternal, Unconditional or Conditional

The promise of God to David that his throne and kingdom would be established was unconditional and eternal.

2SA 7:11 " `The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: 12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.' "

As far as God's promise goes, the kingdom always exists, regardless of appearances. This kingdom is of all Israel, not only the tribe of Judah. Though David was king of Judah for seven and one-half years, he ruled all Israel for 33 years, and indeed Saul was removed as king, and David's throne was established, not for his sake alone but for all Israel.

2SA 5:12 And David knew that the LORD had established him as king over Israel and had exalted his kingdom for the sake of his people Israel.

The promise to Solomon was conditional. If he followed all the decrees, regulations, and commands, then God would fulfill through him the promise to David.

1KI 6:11 The word of the LORD came to Solomon: 12 "As for this temple you are building, if you follow my decrees, carry out my regulations and keep all my commands and obey them, I will fulfill through you the promise I gave to David your father. 13 And I will live among the Israelites and will not abandon my people Israel."

And again:

1KI 9:4 "As for you, if you walk before me in integrity of heart and uprightness, as David your father did, and do all I command and observe my decrees and laws, 5 I will establish your royal throne over Israel forever, as I promised David your father when I said, `You shall never fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.'

And again after the temple had been built. God consecrated it by putting His Name there forever. "My eyes and heart will always be there."

1KI 9:1 When Solomon had finished building the temple of the LORD and the royal palace, and had achieved all he had desired to do, 2 the LORD appeared to him a second time, as he had appeared to him at Gibeon. 3 The LORD said to him:

"I have heard the prayer and plea you have made before me; I have consecrated this temple, which you have built, by putting my Name there forever. My eyes and my heart will always be there.

At all times says the LORD, whether a physical temple stands or not, His Name is there. This cannot be removed, not by the Babylonians, not by the Romans, and not by any temporal kingdom or empire. Empires come and go, the Name of God remains forever.

1KI 9:6 "But if you or your sons turn away from me and do not observe the commands and decrees I have given you and go off to serve other gods and worship them, 7 then I will cut off Israel from the land I have given them and will reject this temple I have consecrated for my Name. Israel will then become a byword and an object of ridicule among all peoples. 8 And though this temple is now imposing, all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff and say, `Why has the LORD done such a thing to this land and to this temple?' 9 People will answer, `Because they have forsaken the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, worshiping and serving them--that is why the LORD brought all this disaster on them.' "

(continue)

[edit on 16-12-2009 by pthena]

(continued)
The blessing of living in the land is conditional, as is the acceptance by God of the physical building. It is conditioned upon fidelity to God. Whether a building stands or not, it is appropriate for Israelites to direct their prayers to God in the direction of where His Name is forever, as did Daniel.

DA 9:17 "Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, O Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18 Give ear, O God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19 O Lord, listen! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, hear and act! For your sake, O my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name."

The city and the people bear the Name.

Let us not be confused about what is eternal and what is temporal, about what is unconditional and what is conditional! If you are of Israel you have a Name given by God. Does this mean then that you can call yourself righteous and go back to the land? That would be presumption.

But the rule of the British empire has been removed. Doesn't that signal the time to return? Do not judge by appearance. But haven't the Jewish forces defeated the Arabs many times? Doesn't that signal the time to return? Again, do not judge by appearances. But hasn't the American empire supported the Jewish government in taking the land from Palestinians? What is the American Empire? It will fade as all empires do. When did God tell anyone to remove Abraham from the land promised to his seed? This is the question. Will you sacrifice Abraham for the sake of territory? Are you killing Abraham in order to build a temple?

If your faith is in your own righteousness and in your own might, then you are not waiting upon the Lord. Wait on the Lord. Seek Him today, He is not far off. He forgives those He wills to.


[edit on 16-12-2009 by pthena]

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by troubleshooter

Originally posted by troubleshooter
...and the Dispensationalists might just have set up a false prophecy for the Man of Sin to fulfill.

I'm not up on changes in dispensational teaching over the last 20 years. Based on what was being taught 20 years ago, it would be easy to conclude that the only reason for a temple would be for someone called the anti-christ to take a seat there. The reason to help the anti-christ is to force God's hand to rapture 'the church'. That fits the definition of black magic.

They say the anti-christ will kill many Jews. So they encourage many Jews to move to the land of Palestine so that they may be killed. This seems to indicate a total lack of love. In my thinking, this is the practice of human sacrifice for the benefit of them going to heaven. I don't think God will reward them in the way they think.

The idea that the temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and that there will be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is so mainstream that to question it is a bit like questioning 'motherhood'.

However, I agree with you that a rebulit Temple has no role in salvation history...
...and there is no scriptural basis for a Pre-Trib Rapture...
...which makes me ask the question, whose endtime agenda do these notions fulfill?

reply to post by troubleshooter

The idea that the temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and that there will be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is so mainstream that to question it is a bit like questioning 'motherhood'.

Dispensationalism as we know it today originated in England at around the turn of the twentieth century. It took off in the US during the 30s with American Christian Fundamentalism. It got another boost during the 'Jesus movement' in the 70s. By now it has infiltrated into practically every denomination, as you say 'mainstream'. It is part of a movement which I label 'American Nationalist Christianity'(ANC), for again as you say it's like questioning 'motherhood'. For to question ANC is to be not truly American, not truly Christian.

We should realize that 92% of Christians in Germany supported Nationalist Socialism, also referred to as Nazis. Today, 40% of American Christians are ANC. Will this American Christianity be any better than Nazi Christianity? We shall see, of course.




[edit on 16-12-2009 by pthena]

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by justamomma
I hereby retract my statement that David made himself a false prophet. The only evidence was the statement found in I Chronicles. I suspect the editor of that book to be unreliable. I think that's why it's put in the "writings". It was wrong for me to pass judgment based on one unreliable witness. I'm sorry.

Are you of the Jewish mentality or have you studied (via application to your own life) the Laws that were given to us?

Thank you for joining this thread. I am lacking in understanding of Jewish mentality. I hope you can help.

If not, then do not presume to think that you can understand our writings. You have made judgments here that are not based on knowledge ... and the judgments are incorrect.

I am a pagan, actually, in that my beliefs are "home grown in the country" rather than taught in the University or religious institutions. Also, with a name Pagan, any may feel free to despise me and my beliefs. I have no high title demanding respect.

Again, I do lack knowledge, and admit my judgments are flawed at times.



[edit on 16-12-2009 by pthena]

Such honesty and goodness in you! YOu display beautifully the heart of our writings in a way that even some of our own do not do.

I will certainly come back to discuss this with you since I can see this is a discussion I will benefit from my ownself. I can't respond in full right this minute, but I had to say THANK YOU for understanding where I was coming from. I will think how best to address your what it is you proposed and get back to you very soon.

no one has right to translate the names of persons, this is being done to isolate people in a new religion formed by Paul.

“Look out that no one deceives you for many (million of Christians) will come in my name (Christ-ian) saying, ‘I am He’ (Christ is God), and will mislead many (Trillion).”

The Prophesies that were Prophecised by Christ Jesus is fulfilled.
Christ Jesus is Testified and Glorified in The Holy Qura’n
.

reply to post by justamomma
Thank you. I was hoping you would see my retraction. It won't be my last I'm afraid. see my signature.

I really want to see Abraham brought back together. And Christians do claim adoption. So I include them too. Any help you can give is welcome very much.




[edit on 16-12-2009 by pthena]

Hey, I'm really glad this threAD is here. I love dialogue between different faiths.
I'm posting here a quote, that I like to think about.
I just like to post things I think about sometimes to be healthy minded an to have the right concept of god.
I hope you understand.

Mahatma Gandhi, in his inimitable style, says "Some one has said that Europeans in South Africa dread the advent Islam -- Islam that civilized Spain, Islam that took the torch light to Morocco and preached to the world the Gospel of brotherhood. The Europeans of South Africa dread the Advent of Islam. They may claim equality with the white races. They may well dread it, if brotherhood is a sin. If it is equality of colored races then their dread is well founded."

“It is true we are Christians, but we understand your point of view and we know you are good men.”

reply to post by 517.101

[2.177] Righteousness is not whether you
face towards the east or the west. But
righteousness is to believe in Allah and the
Last Day, in the angels and the Book, and the
Prophets, and to give wealth however
cherished, to kinsmen, to the orphans, to the
needy, to the destitute traveler, and to the
beggars, and to ransom the slave; who
establish their prayers and pay the obligatory
charity; who are true to their promise when
they have promised. Who are patient in
misfortune and hardship and during the time
of courage. Such are the truthful; such are the
cautious.

This is the verse in Qur'an I am most guided by. For now I consider Shia as closer to my belief than Wahabi Sunni. The Shia seem more willing to await the coming of the Mahdi and Jesus Christ to set things right on earth. Wahabis seem too eager to exclude innovation. They would exclude me, for I pray to God toward Jesus who is in heaven.

[2.34] And when We said to the angels:
'Prostrate (to Me) yourselves towards Adam,'
they all prostrated themselves except iblis
(satan, father of the jinn), who, in his pride
refused and became an unbeliever.

I am obliged to call Jesus my Lord, for he has claimed me as a king claims a subject. By Lord I mean the one through whom God is made known to me, in the same way an angel revealed God to Moses. Jesus reveals that there is One God, who is greater than him. So for me there is one God and one Lord. This confession Paul also gave.

What we see as a long history of error in Christianity, I think should not be laid out as Paul's error. We should look into this further.

The same that you say about Jesus is rather what we might think of David ... only through David as with Moses we have an actual example that we can relate (again Psalm 119). To understand the spirit of David then you must understand his life and what it is he went through as well as what it is the Jewish People have struggled through up until 70 AD. Then, beyond that, who paid for the faith of Christianity with their blood? "not my will, but thy will be done."

Isaiah 53:11 then would seem to take on a different meaning for those who might understand that the whole of the gospel accounts could very well be a parables within a bigger parable. HOsea 6:1-2

reply to post by justamomma

To understand the spirit of David then you must understand his life and what it is he went through as well as what it is the Jewish People have struggled through up until 70 AD. Then, beyond that, who paid for the faith of Christianity with their blood? "not my will, but thy will be done."

I have read David's story, and realize that going from shepherd to singer to slinger to anointed for Judah to brigand chief to mercenary to king of Judah to king of Israel all by age 30 is quite a harrowing experience. That's the sort of mind broadening lifestory that would easily break any man, and yet he survived by God's will, and he knew it. (I sure feel a cad now!)

As for being killed by Christians claiming the name of Jesus, Jesus said:

MT 5:11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

I don't think the persecutors will be that well rewarded.

The Tanach is much this way as well. whilst most choose to see events of the past, is not God the God of the LIVING and NOT the dead? Read the Tanach through your own mind and in what YOU yourself have witnessed ... then, a whole new light could shine forth.

I'm not familiar with 'Tanach', I'll look it up. Yes God is of the living.

I'm also working on understanding Paul, because I don't think he's as bad as some say, and shouldn't be blamed for Christian atrocities. We'll see.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by justamomma

To understand the spirit of David then you must understand his life and what it is he went through as well as what it is the Jewish People have struggled through up until 70 AD. Then, beyond that, who paid for the faith of Christianity with their blood? "not my will, but thy will be done."

I have read David's story, and realize that going from shepherd to singer to slinger to anointed for Judah to brigand chief to mercenary to king of Judah to king of Israel all by age 30 is quite a harrowing experience. That's the sort of mind broadening lifestory that would easily break any man, and yet he survived by God's will, and he knew it. (I sure feel a cad now!)

Please don't at all feel like a cad! David is indeed very difficult to understand for those who are more familiar with the christian mindset of perfection than that of the Jewish mentality of perfection. Someone (can't remember who) once said that we can be knowledgable with another man's knowledge but we cannot be wise with another man's wisdom. Know why that is? Because wisdom comes by way of experience ... wisdom is that solemn understanding of Life that we must earn even by being humbled our ownselves through experience.

Solomon is a protype of those who are of the seed of David ... when he asked God for Wisdom to judge His (God's) People, one shouldn't assume that God just granted him that wisdom as though God is some kind of fairy godmother. The People's wisdom came via experience whilst at the same time submitting to the chastisement (judgments) of God. As David learned, when one submits to the Laws given to the Jewish People, the lesson learned is that the Law of God is cause and effect. What we cause today will have lasting effects ... and those effects MUST ALWAYS find resolution (thus, why the Tanach says that the understanding of God is infinite).

Now, whilst the HOUSE of David was cursed, the seed (Solomon) would sit on the throne of David in an everlasting kingdom ... it is symbolic of the way of Wisdom. (think here of what you said in regard to how you view Jesus ... the angel).

Specifically for David, looking at his life will shed some light on a very important key for why David is used as the prototype for learning lessons (in regards to the whole of Israel, the People).

Let's discuss, shall we?

When David saw the wife of one of his servents naked and took her to himself it set into motion a chain of events (remember ... the Law of God is cause and effect) in which David learned a VERY valuable lesson. Read 2 Samuel 11-12 and tell me, what lesson did he learn and is there any significant value to you in this lesson?

A hint is found in the wisdom of the laws given to the children of Israel. Exodus 23:7

(this line of thinking could potentially set us both on a path to greater understanding, ya know )





[edit on 17-12-2009 by justamomma]

A Word of Encouragement to Christians

I feel your distress. Fear not, follow Jesus, be a Christian. "But," you may say, "the Christian history is full of bloodshed and destruction. How can I stand in judgment before my God, seeing all this blood on my hands and on my head?" Do not follow Christianity. Follow Jesus. He did not kill. He did not persecute. Rather, he healed and helped, and taught peace to his followers. Follow him and your judgment will not be hard.

If you follow Christianity then you are no Christian. Follow Jesus. The difference should be plain. He never taught his followers to kill or oppress or to walk the earth as kings. Be as servants to all. Do not strike back.

"But", you may say, "where then will I find security in this world?" There is no lasting security but in God. In the mean time, as you live in hope, realize that true Muslims have been reaching out their hands in brotherhood to you. They are taught to be ready for the day of courage. They will cover your back. Have you not heard how Martin Luther King jr. lived and worked longer than he would have otherwise because the Muslim Brotherhood looked out for him? Accept what is offered with gratitude for it is of God.

"But", you may say, "I've heard that the Christians in Iraq have been betrayed." There are those who say they are Muslims, yet they are not. There is no true security except in God. The Americans in the name of security have left us all less secure. Their crimes are quite evident, crying out for justice. In their "Christian" zeal they have made the name Christian a name of bad repute, which has compromised the safety of Christians throughout the world. They stride the earth as emperors and yet call themselves Christian. Be of good cheer! This empire will fade as have those which have come before it. Follow Jesus and the crimes of the empire will not be held against you by God.

Originally posted by pthena
As for being killed by Christians claiming the name of Jesus, Jesus said:

MT 5:11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

In discussions with Christians, I have often been told that I killed Jesus (being a Jewess) as well as the prophets to which I have replied that I have not killed anyone ... I was not even alive then (see my signature). However, being raised Christian myself (yes ), I started seeing it to be rather true when seen as a conceptual metaphor .. same thing as how a proverb always has an opposing proverb that is equally just as true. As I came to know the way of the People better, the images of those who are in Torah and even that of Jesus were replaced with the spirit (the disposition) of the People.

When I have generalized in discussions that Christians have slaughtered the Jews for their faith, Christianity, I know quite well that the Christians alive today were not around during the holocaust (as well as the crusades, etc) and thus, should not be held accountable for the sins of their fathers, even according to the Tanach.

I am speaking symbolically to say the Christians have slaughtered the Jews. When we take up the teachings of another and yet throw away WHO THEY ARE and WHERE THEY COME FROM (the People), then we are like the men in Sodom who, being struck blind to protect THEM from touching the angels (who were seen a men) in a harmful manner, were grasping in desperation to find the door. Genesis 19:10-11

Then, we must be as the children of Israel in the wilderness (even as David) to submit our mind to the Laws given to the People so that we may learn the way of their Wisdom ... we must walk in their shoes to understand what it is they witnessed.

There is GREAT Wisdom to be had in the way of Israel and once you have walked in that Way, it is easy to see that there is indeed a God and that THE word is and always has been very near to us all along.

Deuteronomy 30:10-15

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil

[edit on 17-12-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by pthenaI don't think the persecutors will be that well rewarded.

All the Peoples of the earth belong to God and men are the tools in the "hand" of God. Thus, we all are rewarded according to our deeds .. it is the Law of God which is the universal Law. Daniel 12:2-3

Ezekiel sheds much light on that passage in Daniel, so you know .. particularly Ezekiel 18.

I'm not familiar with 'Tanach', I'll look it up. Yes God is of the living.

The Tanach (Tanakh) is what christians call the Old Testament. It is not old to me and rather it is the testament of the Living. Magic is nothing more than illusions .. and the greatest illusion to place the mind under the chains of ignorance is power of suggestion. If we believe it is old, we will most likely find it irrelevent and not worth REALLY knowing ...

Ironic to me that so many say they believe the Bible and so few knows what it actually says ... that goes for the NT as well.

I'm also working on understanding Paul, because I don't think he's as bad as some say, and shouldn't be blamed for Christian atrocities. We'll see.

We all should know of the "thorn in the side" of Paul, no? Look to the Tanach to find the answer ... it can be found in Numbers 33, Joshua 23, and Judges 2. then, when you have found it, tell me if it helps to shed light on Paul for you ... I have much more, but we will probably do well to start here.

reply to post by justamomma

David is indeed very difficult to understand for those who are more familiar with the christian mindset of perfection than that of the Jewish mentality of perfection. ...wisdom is that solemn understanding of Life that we must earn even by being humbled our ownselves through experience.

We don't have much of the life of Jesus recorded, just a few deeds and sayings. That leaves Christians trying to understand him theologically rather than humanly. His humanity is lost therefore he is lost, for he is a man. And all he said is lost too. This is sad. We cannot enjoy his wisdom unless we are broken by experience.

Solomon is a protype of those who are of the seed of David ... the Law of God is cause and effect. What we cause today will have lasting effects ... and those effects MUST ALWAYS find resolution (thus, why the Tanach says that the understanding of God is infinite).

Now, whilst the HOUSE of David was cursed, the seed (Solomon) would sit on the throne of David in an everlasting kingdom ... it is symbolic of the way of Wisdom.

That is why your location is 'at the right hand of God'!

On cause and effect: Somewhere in Moses it says "visiting the sins upon the third and fourth generation." Yet the record seems to show more often it's the first or second generation. Mercy of God?

I think I should revisit my original thesis. I've already determined that David was not the false prophet, but rather I&II Chronicles, the last books of the Tanach, are unreliable witnesses. Looking now at why David chose Solomon to succeed him, I will look at the crime against Uriah the Hittite, as you have suggested.

In a way, according to tradition, the first son of Bathsheba could have been viewed as carrying on the line of Uriah. But that son died, though David pleaded for the boy's life. This added to the guilt of David's crime, for not only did he cause the man's death, but his whole line was ended.

From a common human need for a smooth succession, for had not Adonihah set himself up as king? David set Solomon up as king.

In a deeper sense though, it was the son of the widow of Uriah who sat on the throne. Thus, David's crime was mitigated as much as was possible. And, it would seem, God honored that.


Yes, we have much work to do yet.

[edit on 17-12-2009 by pthena]

reply to post by justamomma

We all should know of the "thorn in the side" of Paul, no? Look to the Tanach to find the answer ... it can be found in Numbers 33, Joshua 23, and Judges 2. then, when you have found it, tell me if it helps to shed light on Paul for you

Yes, he was not free of foreign teachings.

You have shaken me to the core. I must be honest. It was because of a vision that I follow Jesus. When I was 17, after reading or hearing some description of the great tribulation of the last days, I was greatly disturbed. Then, as if a window opened before me, I saw Jesus with another man. Jesus said, "If you are mine, then I am yours. Fear not." I confess now, that I did not see him at God's right hand, as others have claimed. I saw him as a man sent from God. As a messenger (angel).

As far as I know, the Koran never places him at God's right hand, but as one very close, as also his followers are.

So now that I have confessed this, it becomes clear to me. This is what I found in the Koran:

[5.46] And We sent, following in their
footsteps (Prophet) Jesus, the son of Mary,
confirming that which was before him in the
Torah, and gave him the Gospel, in which
there is guidance and light, confirming that
which was before him in the Torah, a guide
and an admonition to the cautious.
[5.47] Therefore, let the people of Gospel
judge in accordance with that which Allah has
sent in it. Those who do not judge according
to that which Allah has sent down are the
evildoers.

[9.27] Yet thereafter, Allah turns to whom He
will. He is the Forgiving, the Most Merciful.
[9.28] Believers, the idolaters are unclean. Do
not let them approach the Sacred Mosque
after this year. ...
[9.29] Fight those who neither believe in Allah
nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what
Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and
do not embrace the religion of the truth, being
among those who have been given the Book
(Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute
out of hand and have been humiliated.
[9.30] The Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah,
while the Christians (who follow Paul) say the
Messiah is the son of Allah. Such are their
assertions, by which they imitate those who
disbelieved before. Allah fights them! How
perverted are they!
[9.31] They take their rabbis and monks as
lords besides Allah, and the Messiah, son of
Mary, though they were ordered to worship
but one God, there is no god except He.
Exalted is He above that they associate with
Him!

As you have said. Each is judged for his own deeds. Those who hold to the gospel of Jesus are judged by that standard, of how they live up to what they have been given. Jesus said the same to his followers.

I must take a break for awhile, and see how this settles in. Be back soon.

reply to post by justamomma

Now, whilst the HOUSE of David was cursed, the seed (Solomon) would sit on the throne of David in an everlasting kingdom ... it is symbolic of the way of Wisdom.

You had me going there for awhile. I should be afraid of Paul because of his thorn in the flesh of foreign influence? I am a foreigner. There's no way for me to avoid myself.
Instead of Paul you offer me Solomon? Isn't he Mr. Briar patch cloak and empty eyesockets?

1KI 11:1 King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh's daughter--Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. 2 They were from nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites, "You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods." Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.

1KI 11:7 On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. 8 He did the same for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods.

Just how many children did he put in the fire?

1KI 9:20 All the people left from the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites (these peoples were not Israelites), 21 that is, their descendants remaining in the land, whom the Israelites could not exterminate--these Solomon conscripted for his slave labor force, as it is to this day.

So while the inhabitants of the land were enslaved to build the temple to the one true God, Solomon was worshiping their gods. That sounds so much better than Paul.
Cause and effect? Solomon's action led directly to the breaking of the kingdom. If it had not been for the promise to David, the city of Jerusalem could have been ended right then, and the stone temple.

Solomon is dead. If he is your wisdom, you are in real trouble. If your God approves this man, you better find a new God.

1KI 10:14 The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents, 15 not including the revenues from merchants and traders and from all the Arabian kings and the governors of the land.

I'm sure this number is just a coincidence and has nothing to do with any other mention of the number.



[edit on 18-12-2009 by pthena]

Guaranteed Prophecy or Conditional Prophecy

Continuing on from the above post:
Temporal or Eternal, Unconditional or Conditional
By guaranteed is meant that which God promises without condition and stakes His Name and reputation on. Examples would be God's eternal covenant with Abraham (Genesis 17) that he would be the father of many nations who would possess the land of Canaan. Individual participation signified by circumcision.

Just a note on this. Any one engaged in or supporting the removal of Abraham from the land promised is in rebellion against the Eternal Covenant of God. If I'm not mistaken Palestinians are Abraham's seed also. So I repeat, any one engaged in or supporting the removal of Abraham from his promised land is fighting against God. That includes agents of the so-called Jewish state of Israel, settlers from around the world moving land marks, and any one, Jewish or Christian allies, sending gold to support these activities.

666, I name you, "Mr. or Ms. I'm sending gold to Jerusalem"

By conditional, is meant a prophecy conditioned upon people's activities, such as:

JER 29:10 This is what the LORD says: "When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place. 11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile."

At first glance a person may think, "all I have to do is wait 70 years and then return." No, the true condition is "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart", then God will bring you back.

I want to show in detail what confusing prophesy can lead to in a prophet's life. I will examine the prophet Zechariah, this will take some time.

(to be continued)



[edit on 18-12-2009 by pthena]