Tasers!! Dangerous? Deadly? NO! And here is why...

reply to post by Izarith


err.... I wasn't exactly being serious.

Second line and apologies if you thought I was in earnest

reply to post by Dagar


I know.

I was just using your kidding around to point out the seriousness of the flaw in law enforcement's justification for the disregard they have for most non dangerous people's dignity.

A taser should be used when an officer feels his life is threatened and chooses to preserve the offenders life instead of using his gun.

It most definitely should not be used on women and children or any non lethal person in a weaker position than that of fully armed and trained officer of the law, as it is used today.

But hey that's what you end up with when you give a badge to people who don't know the meaning of protecting and serving the public.

Most cops today are only hired if they fit the profile of a complete despot, this ensures that revenue will definitely be gained for the state. Hell some cops have a criminal record before being hired.

Good cops who actually help protect and serve don't pull in enough DUI's to get any kind of promotion at all.

Were is the sense in that?

Originally posted by ThePeoplesSoldier
... Next to verbal skills its probly the best weapon a patrol has.

Judging from your spelling and grammar, your verbal skills could use a bit of polish.

Seriously, reading your posts is like trying to read a cellphone text message from a primary school student.

Also, have you decided on an amperage yet? I have seen "2.1 milliamps" and then ".0021 mili amps" and several other numbers. Do you know what the prefix "milli" denotes?

Methinks your math skills are sharing a bunk with your spelling and grammar skills.

I ask the simple question again what is more dangerous a 40 caliber pistol round or a taser. I can tell you what I would choose. And I dont agree with it being used when there are other options. It is a weak arguement to say well they used it on a little girl so it must be bad. It is a tool and when used right it is better then the alternatives and if you do not know what they are I will help you out

Nightstick--must be close and hard to gage strengh when adrenaline is pumping

Flashlight--same as above

Gun---Last alternative can easily take life

Fists---same as nightstick and and officers can be injured I consider it a last resort

Pepper spray---Works good but has range issues and can blind the officer using it and fellow officers

Reasoning--I believe the first line of defense and should be instilled in all peace keepers but alot of times suspects will not listen and then what

Taser--A good weapon has range and works well to stop suspect no risk to other officers is it perfect NO but considering the alternatives it is the best choice in alot of situations.

Are there bad cops? yes, I do believe there are but most are good honest people and if you do not think that way it may be your lifestyle that needs improvement. I have had many run ins with cops and I have never been tased or harrased. At the end of the day the cops would be using guns in alot of the taser incidents and suspects by far stand a better chance with a taser then a gun.

reply to post by Subjective Truth


Good point. This is exactly why we do not have all these instances of innocent people being killed by tazers, right? They are such great useful tools and after all, there are only two choices right? Gun or tazer? Thank goodness for the tazer so we do not have all these people getting killed by them when they could have been restrained another way. Wait a minute....

From what I understand...:

• The amount of voltage dictates how far the power will penetrate through something. For example, lightning is at an extremely high voltage which allows it to jump through air. The wires inside your computer carry large currents (often >20 amps peak) but will not harm you at all because it is at a low voltage, meaning you probably couldn't electrocute yourself with the output wires from the power supply even if you tried. (please don't try that, I might be wrong) EDIT: Actually it may be possible if you were wet or tried to stick the wires in your mouth. Don't try it.
  
• I believe current is what kills, but it depends on which part of the body the current is traveling through. 0.1a or less might be able to kill someone if it travels through the heart (or whatever controls the heart, I am no biologist), but first I think you need the voltage potential to push it there.
  

That's my (limited) understanding. It is useless to compare voltage alone. It tells us nothing. I.e. comparing tasers to static electricity is useless. What really needs to be done is a study of the combination of current and voltage (i.e. power) through the body, and how majority it will affect the bodies internal organs. I'm fairly sure this has already been done.

Honestly, I feel tasers are relatively safe, but obviously should not be used on a whim, or used on children or the elderly. If they are overused or abused, then that needs to stop. People should not be killed with non-lethal weapons.


Also someone mentioned pepper spray, apparently some people are allergic to it, and can die.... not sure how true that is.

[edit on 10/12/2009 by C0bzz]

The blog is from Syracuse? I was there back in 1998, did you know that Syracuse is a CIA front?

Tasers are VERY dangerous, here is why:

1a) Human Error (Police Officer)
1b) Bad Judgment of targets age (Police Officer shooting children)
1c) Police Officer has no information on targets medical history (Pacemaker, bad Heart).
1d) Bad targeting of taser weapon (Police Officer - See below video).
1e) After target is tased and if a child, child will have psychological trauma.

Video of "1d", underage child gets tased in the head, now scarred and epileptic and probably psychologically disturbed now:




[edit on 10/12/2009 by the_denv]

reply to post by the_denv


I can't watch the video right now because the computer im on is firewalled... I will watch it when I get home. But going off of what you worded 3 of your 5 points THOUGH VERY VALID point toward not enough training, not toward the dangers of the tool. A gun can be dangerous if givin to somone with no training also. As far as the targeting goes it has GREATLY improved since 98 and is effective up to 21 feet on most police issued tasers. For the medical history thing yes this is ALWAYS going to be impossible to judge what issues somone may have, but I shall say this. If someone has a pre-exsisting heart condition and instead of tasing him the officer sprays him with pepper spray or physicaly fights him. Your telling me thats not going to take an effect on him also? If somone has a weak bones and an officer takes them to the ground to arrest them and breaks ribs would that not be considered police abuse as well? Tasers are just one more tool on the belt and save more lives then they adversly effect END OF STORY.



---> edit: Now that I have had time to go home and watch the video I will coment on it. I can not say that what he did was or was not excessive, BECAUSE AND HEAR ME OUT!! I was not there and NO video or official report was released in the video stating exactly what happend. All you have is the little girls side of the story. NOW THAT BEING SAID what is my OPINION? I think it was more then likely excessive force and that officer shoould get fried. However thats just 1 incident out of the countless incidents that arnt abuse. There are many times that the use of a taser is WELL justified, and no one is commenting on those? I can once again say the same thing about guns. Everyone knows they are dangerous, and when somone gets murdered we prosicute the subject. But do we ban guns all together? No thats impracticle. I wont defend officer abuse but i wont support stripping them of an excellent tool either.

[edit on 10-12-2009 by ThePeoplesSoldier]

Getting tased actually disrupts the signals sent from your brain to your nerves. When that happens your body locks up and you fall to the ground. A static shock does not do anything more than cause a minor annoyance...

Static shock and being shocked with a taser are two completely different things. You are trying to imply that being tazed is no worse than a simple static shock but that is simply not so. It is much worse. How many people have you seen get dropped from a static shock? I have seen zero.

Now, as for you claiming it is not deadly... numerous people HAVE died. That is a widely known fact... So that puts an end to that.

You don't know anything about electricity. You could get shocked by a million volts and be alive, if the amperage is low. To kill you only need 20-60 milliamps(depends on size and everything), and a taser produces around 20.

reply to post by paranoiaFTW

To kill a person it's needed more that 100 mA, on average.

But skin conductivity is extremely variable (and one of the things measured by the polygraph, because it changes with the nervousness of the person), so even the same person will be affected in different ways if hit at different times.

Having said that, I don't remember seeing (but it doesn't mean that there aren't) any study made with more than one discharge, and after the first I think the person nervousness has increased, he/she may be sweating (which lowers the skin conductivity), so the conditions on a second or third discharge may not be the same. Also, I don't remember any case (although, once more, that doesn't mean a thing) in which the person died after just one discharge, and if that's true then it's one more thing that may mean that the lethality of the taser changes with the number of discharges the person suffers.

Originally posted by the_denv
The blog is from Syracuse? I was there back in 1998, did you know that Syracuse is a CIA front?

I am confused. I live very close to Syracuse and this is the first I ever heard about the entire city being a CIA front. Can you elaborate?

Originally posted by ArMaP
reply to post by paranoiaFTW

 

To kill a person it's needed more that 100 mA, on average.

But skin conductivity is extremely variable (and one of the things measured by the polygraph, because it changes with the nervousness of the person), so even the same person will be affected in different ways if hit at different times.

Skin conductivity is not the issue, because the two metal barbs of the Taser are designed to penetrate the skin down to the fatty layer and deliver the shock inside the body. However if the Taser is used on the chest, where the fatty layer is often thin, the high voltage pushes the charge through the body fluids, (which, being salty, have high conductivity,) and the charge can go straight through the heart.

If the current has a direct pathway to the heart (e.g., via a cardiac catheter or other kind of electrode), a much lower current of less than 1 mA (AC or DC) can cause fibrillation. If not immediately treated by defibrillation, fibrillations are usually lethal because all the heart muscle cells move independently. Above 200 mA, muscle contractions are so strong that the heart muscles cannot move at all.
en.wikipedia.org...

Having said that, I don't remember seeing (but it doesn't mean that there aren't) any study made with more than one discharge, and after the first I think the person nervousness has increased, he/she may be sweating (which lowers the skin conductivity), so the conditions on a second or third discharge may not be the same. Also, I don't remember any case (although, once more, that doesn't mean a thing) in which the person died after just one discharge, and if that's true then it's one more thing that may mean that the lethality of the taser changes with the number of discharges the person suffers.

When Tasers are used repeatedly on a victim, generally barbs are only used the first time. Then the Taser is pushed against the skin of the still twitching victim to cause repeated shocks. Where I've seen this done on spectator's mobile phone videos, the subsequent shocks have most often been applied directly over the heart.

No studies have been done on the safety of repeatedly shocking a victim in this manner.

reply to post by Kailassa


From what I have read the barbs are supposed to get stuck to the clothes and the discharge happens on the skin.

I got the idea (without any confirmation) that the discharge can be repeated without firing another set of barbs and without removing the front of the taser, as long as the person has the barbs stuck to the clothes (or to him/herself) the "operator" can keep on activating more and more discharges.

But I am sure someone will clear this doubt soon enough.

Originally posted by ArMaP
From what I have read the barbs are supposed to get stuck to the clothes and the discharge happens on the skin.

Here's the report of a doctor after seeing a presentation on Tasers at the annual meeting of his medical speciality society in New York:

the use of the taser is not without after-effects. The site of skin penetration where the "dart" enters can become significantly burned. Because the dart penetrates about 0.5 - 1.5 cm below the skin, the burn encircles the entrance point to a mild extent, but tends to be fairly deep.
. . . .
the darts need to be removed. They become "stuck" in the skin and underlying tissue, not unlike a fishhook, and removing them can be tricky. Sometimes the assailant has to be brought to the ER for removal of the dart. Medical personnel should remove it if it enters the head, neck, or groin regions, for instance. The police officer, of course, should avoid hitting these areas-- and also avoid hitting the chest.

The heart speeds up with certain taser exposures, and in unusual cases a rhythm called ventricular fibrillation is seen. This rhythm usually results in cardiac arrest and death, unless promptly treated.

There have been case reports of other types of injuries with taser use: the dart penetrating through the skull and then through the surface of the brain; fractured vertebrae, even when no fall has occurred; seizures; eye injuries leading to blindness; trauma due to the fall that takes place; and drowning if the assailant falls into water.

guarino.typepad.com...

Tasers can deliver a shock even when clothing is too tough and thick to be fully penetrated, and the high voltage allows the current to jump 2" to the skin. However this is not so effective.

All tasers can be used in “probe” mode, meaning that they fire the barbs and their trailing wires out of the hand-held unit. In addition some of the models can also be used in “touch stun” mode. This means that the electrical contacts on the hand-held unit are pressed directly onto the subject.
. . . .
When a taser is discharged at a target a large separation of the barbs is desirable in order to provide maximum incapacitation. However, it is also important that both barbs will penetrate the target’s skin or at least attach onto their clothing, otherwise the circuit cannot be completed and the electricity will not flow through the target.

scienceandresearch.homeoffice.gov.uk...

I got the idea (without any confirmation) that the discharge can be repeated without firing another set of barbs and without removing the front of the taser, as long as the person has the barbs stuck to the clothes (or to him/herself) the "operator" can keep on activating more and more discharges.

You are correct.
I had watched a Taser presentation on a device which ejected the cartidge, eliminating the possibility of repeated use, and thought that applied to all. However most Tasers can be reactivated for as long as the barbs remain embedded.

I wonder if the barbs are ever cleaned between uses, or if people are being shot with something covered in the blood of the last 20 victims.

I see ya'll dabating this like electricians ... hehe , I sincerely care about "most law enforcement personal" and anything that makes you drop like a bag of potatoes and flop around isn't comparable to shuffling your feet and getting zapped.

Come on .................

basic electricity. voltage is the force that allows electrons to flow. resistance is the force opposing electron flow. amps is the amount of electrons flowing.

human body resistance varies alot. very few places on your body have low enough resistance to allow 12 volts pass (saw someone said 12 volts can kill?), i mean i guess a 9 volt battery on your tounge will pass but go stick your finger and thumb on your car battery, nothing happens.

and I don't see why the amperage rating is important, trace amounts of current can send a heart into cardiac dysrhythmia (out of rhythm), if your the wrong person. but then again I've been hit with 277 volts personally and its was most likly in the 80+ mA range that went through my body, in one hand holding a screw driver, straight across my heart, out the other holding onto the enclosure. my body contracted then went limp and i fell to my knees (breaking contact with the screw terminal), hurt like i can't explain, but I'm alive and no damage.

its more how healthy your heart is than anything. im a healthy 21 year old (20 years at the time). but when your heart gets out of rhythm it supposed to restart itself, which mine did obviously.

path of current plays the most important part, your heart would have to be in the path of current for it to be deadly. but getting shot in the chest or back with a taser would do that.

i think others have proven taser are deadly but being in the elctrical trade, I've herd stories and seen safty videos of people dieing of 120 volts. I'm required to know how to use a defibrillator and all the safty training that goes with it. and they want to say 50K volts is safe? all the training i went through says otherwise.

other hand i got a better chance of surviving that then the gun they also have.

reply to post by ohhwataloser

The type of shock is important.

I have suffered at least two 220 V/50 Hz shocks, but the strongest one, and one which left me almost without breath and which I felt affected my heart was a shock that I got when I touched the two wires from an old transformer coil that I had plugged to a 9V battery.

At first sight it would look like a 9V battery would not have enough energy for that, but by connecting it to a powerful coil I charged the coil with current (like a capacitor charges with voltage) and what I got was a shock with the accumulated current, and I guarantee you that I wouldn't like to get another one like that, I think that was the time I was closest to death.

coils don't charge, atleast on their own, but they change the voltage. I've also been hit by a car coil which changes 12 volts into 40K+ volts, just went through my hand but it was a numb for a few hours. most likly nothing accumulated when it hit you, that was just 9 volts being changed into a higher unknown voltage, scary stuff.

reply to post by ohhwataloser

Coils change the voltage when paired with another coil and alternate current.

When connected to DC current they act in a different way, trust me.